The finished work of the cross ?

[followjesus]

Absolutely! The Word of God makes us doers of the Word as we believe God.... there is life in those words

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." (Matt 4:4)

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him (the Word) was life; and the life was the light of men." (John 1:1-4)

"Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us." (Eph 3:20)

"For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe." (1Thess 2:13)

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Phill 2:12-13)

As we believe His Word he makes us doers of the Word and not hearers only deceiving our own selves. Amen!

God's blessing to all

amen to that !!! thank you very much for the scripture and Good discussion. God bless and keep you in all things Jesus Christ !!

and do you notice How His words provide a perfect balance of Grace, and also truth ? so when we fall He says " believe in me no one can take you from my Hand. repent and i will lift you up.....and then when we arent strugling He is teaching us how to do the things He is teaching us, and that we are to do those things......

somewhere along the line, grace omits truth for some and Gods word gets forgotten and made of no importance. because of teachings that teach " if you have any part to do, then its not Grace" ....yet the word of God is the very thing that works in us to act and will and do according to His purpose when we hear " do these things, dont only hear me, hear me and believe and do these things and you will know the truth and be set free
I find the design of Hois word to be perfect, and all providing for everything He expects of us, and so full of mercy and Grace and assurance.

thanks for the insight its a blessing !

 

[followjesus]

What, exactly is that testament?
What, exactly is the Gospel?

You see, you are using all sorts of terminology, but by reading what you are saying it is clear that either you are a poor communicator (just stating as a observation) or you really don't understand what these things mean.

Jesus Christ did not come to waste His life on the cross merely to replace on set of rules with another!

I hope with all that is in me that you do get the reality of the cross, but for now I am not convinced.
Praying for you!

naw its just scripture that seems to be causing your confusion

the gospel ? are you serious? there are 4 books in the Holy Bible called " the gospel according to matthew, the gospel according to mark, the gospel according to Luke, and the gospel ccording to John. thos books are the gospel

a testament ? lol there are 2 testaments in the Bible, the first given through Moses, the second, Given through the Son of God

hebrews 1:1-4 "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, <<< the first testament

2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; <<< the second testament

naw the rest of thats something you just said, id never say Jesus wasted His life, and i believe Him when He says " the words i speak unto you are spirit and Life" he doesnt see them as rules and oppression, thats How the serpent taught man to see Gods word

exodus 20:19 "And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.

thats a result of this

Genesis 3:1-Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

v8 "And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. 9And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? 10And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

look closely they were decieved into thinking God was telling them a lie, and just didnt want them to be like Him, he was keeping something from them......thier minds changed after he convinced them that Gods word was against them. Jesus came with the truth that saves..... you shouldnt see the gospel as rules, but Life and spirit the very words of God meant to save us from condemnation.


because when God told adam " you must not eat from the tree of good and evil" it was a safeguard for mankind, it was to keep them safe and alive. like if you told your child " Dont drink this bleach or you will surely die"

satan Knew they would die, he just twisted Gods word and made thier minds think it wasnt Life, Jesus Gospel changes that mind back to understanding " Gods word is for us, not against us" His death is a part of the gospel, just as much as His words, its when the cross is everything and His words arent what they really are that holds us up.

 

[Zmouth]

Surely Paul in the Epistle to the Romans explains it!

If finished then why did Paul need to explain it?

 

[graceNpeace]

naw its just scripture that seems to be causing your confusion...

I am certainly not confused.

You quoted Hebrews which talks about a testament and a testator.
If your argument is that the testaments referred to are what we now call the Old and the New Testaments then you are one who is mightily confused. First off, there was no such thing as the "New Testament" at the time of writing of Hebrews - that was only a later term Christians began centuries later began using to refer to the Gospels and Acts, Revelations, and the Epistles of Paul, John, and Peter etc.
Also what we now know of as the "Old Testament" is also a much later term. In the time that Hebrews was written the reference would have been to the Law, the Prophets, and the Wisdom writings - certainly not the "Old Testament".

Also I asked you what the Gospel mean't - the best you can do is tell me that in our current New Testament that there are four books called Gospels!
Not very convincing!

You are the one who started this thread wanting to know what the significance of the cross was.
And you wanted the rest of us to take your question seriously -do you remember that?

Instead you have responded to my input with ludicrous replies - I could be forgiven for thinking that you are just mocking.

 

[followjesus]

I am certainly not confused.

You quoted Hebrews which talks about a testament and a testator.
If your argument is that the testaments referred to are what we now call the Old and the New Testaments then you are one who is mightily confused. First off, there was no such thing as the "New Testament" at the time of writing of Hebrews - that was only a later term Christians began centuries later began using to refer to the Gospels and Acts, Revelations, and the Epistles of Paul, John, and Peter etc.
Also what we now know of as the "Old Testament" is also a much later term. In the time that Hebrews was written the reference would have been to the Law, the Prophets, and the Wisdom writings - certainly not the "Old Testament".

Also I asked you what the Gospel mean't - the best you can do is tell me that in our current New Testament that there are four books called Gospels!
Not very convincing!

You are the one who started this thread wanting to know what the significance of the cross was.
And you wanted the rest of us to take your question seriously -do you remember that?

Instead you have responded to my input with ludicrous replies - I could be forgiven for thinking that you are just mocking.

alright well God bless you,

 

[followjesus]

I am certainly not confused.

You quoted Hebrews which talks about a testament and a testator.
If your argument is that the testaments referred to are what we now call the Old and the New Testaments then you are one who is mightily confused. First off, there was no such thing as the "New Testament" at the time of writing of Hebrews - that was only a later term Christians began centuries later began using to refer to the Gospels and Acts, Revelations, and the Epistles of Paul, John, and Peter etc.
Also what we now know of as the "Old Testament" is also a much later term. In the time that Hebrews was written the reference would have been to the Law, the Prophets, and the Wisdom writings - certainly not the "Old Testament".

Also I asked you what the Gospel mean't - the best you can do is tell me that in our current New Testament that there are four books called Gospels!
Not very convincing!

You are the one who started this thread wanting to know what the significance of the cross was.
And you wanted the rest of us to take your question seriously -do you remember that?

Instead you have responded to my input with ludicrous replies - I could be forgiven for thinking that you are just mocking.

and no i was asking about the finished works of the cross doctrine, that seems to think the cross is everything. was Kind of the point, was wondering if anyone had any scripture to show that. i dont see any in this thread and really still dont know where that doctrine comes from.......


the meaning of the cross is plentiful, first to show Gods Love for us, that He would sacrifice His son. again aimed at winning our hearts back to God. so that we will accept His word as it is, for us and not against us.....


but ill check back another time to see if anyone has the scripture that change the gospel, from what Jesus said it was.

 

[followjesus]

i dont see anywhere in the bible talking about finished work on the cross????????????????? why do we use this language!!!!!!!!!!!

I dont either bro, i suspect its because its a doctrine that is put together by plucking a verse here and there and creating an illusion , but i was hoping somoen had scripture to suppot it because so many on this site, and really out there in the world, seem to be preaching this " finished work of the cross" doctrine. and then that leads to " dont do anything God says to actually do, or you are rejecting His sacrifice and tryong to save yourself" it seems very contrary to me, but i was thinking maybe i just missed those scriptures..... so i wanted to see if anyone had those to share

 

[followjesus]

Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed.

so the things He said have no part in it? even though He is the one saying they have everything to do with it?

do you have any in context scripture that changes or omits His word because of the cross?

 

[followjesus]

Sadly this will lead to feelings of guilt, insecurity and condemnation.

Sadly you have missed the Good News of the Gospel.

Sadly you have made the work of Jesus unable to undo what Adam and Eve did in the Garden of Eve, since we will fail again and again we are actually back where we started

Sadly you have made God's grace (His LOVE) a revolving door of in and out

Thankfully it is not Truth!!!

do you believe that Gods words are against us? or do you believe Jesus came to preach deliverance and the good news ?

 

[OneFaith]

False........

You are certainly entitled to your opinion and God-given freewill. I encourage you to think for yourself. We all must study the Bible and ask, seek, and knock for understanding. I have, and believe I've been granted, for He said he who seeks finds. How exactly do you believe I am misunderstanding scripture? What do you believe is the meaning of the prodigal son?

 

[followjesus]

Christianity is about taking up our cross daily and following Jesus Christ. Jesus died once for all- all in the past who obeyed God, and all in the future who would obey God. Their obedience didn't earn Christ's blood (which is grace), but the obedient are the group of people He chooses to give that gift to.

What was finished on the cross was Christ's part- to perfectly complete the Old Law (physical covenant), and nail it to the cross. And to purchase His church (spiritual covenant) with His blood. And to provide the opportunity for all to be saved. (Whosoever will). This was His part. His part does not leave us with no part.

Once saved we need to remain saved. Christ's blood only covers us if we are trying not to sin. But the Bible says "If we sin willfully there no longer remains a sacrifice for our sins." (No longer means it once genuinely did). If we sin willfully we are no longer in Christ, no longer have a scape goat, and only those in Christ will be saved. If you are in Christ all your sins are washed away, but we must obey God continuously until we die.

If we leave God by sinning willfully, we are as the prodigal son. If we come back to the Father before we die, we will be back to a saved state of being. When the prodigal returned to his father, his father said "My son was dead, but now he is alive." The son did not die physically- so this is speaking of spiritual death and spiritual life.

I absolutely agree with this 100 percent, i think part of the issue is that some really still have the mindset of horeb " dont let God speak anymore to us or we will die"

so the answer for them is to create a doctrine that doesnt involve repentance, or obedience to Gods Word, that is now and has always been Life to the dead. some see the word "obey" as an oppression, something thats arbitrary rules that really dont matter. but really His word even in eden was to keep us safe, and alive. satans deception accomplished the changed mind that was then afraid of His word, thinking it was death and against them, oppresive keeping the good fruit from them.

i see in Gods word according to the gospel, that there is plenty to lift us up when we fail , and offers forgiveness through His doctrine " forgive and be forgiven" and " blessed are the merciful for they will receive mercy" and also there is much to teach us Gods ways, Love for others, turn the other cheek, get rid of lust and greed, give to the poor, dont serve money. i notice He always teaches and then makes clear " do these things, dont only hear, but do them they are Life, freedom, spirit that quikens you.....and then of course in the epistles there are words that testify to the same things. and tell us things like " faith comes through hearing the word of God"

like abraham heard God say go into a land i will show you, abram got up and went as the Lord had said because He believed Him. same with noah, Gods Grace came to noah in genesis 6:8, and then noahs faith saved Him because He did hat God said, even thoiugh He didnt see the flood yet, God said it was coming and noah did as commanded and became the heir to the righteousness of faith that paul speaks of.

i think the definition of faith is missing in todays popular doctrines. james says faith without works is dead, which kind of fits what noah did, He believed and obeyed and was saved. everything comes through the word even our obedience when we dont omit the things clearly saying " you must do these things, obey them and Live"

it seems theres so many omissions of even pauls writings all of the warnings about repenting of the sinful actions, putting to death the acts of the flesh by following the spirit. its as if the spirit is also misunderstood as just a magical spirit that comes and forces us to do everything and not the word of God that were to follow after, seek after. theres plenty of Grace in the word, but also so many things were told clearly and plainly to do.

i believe in line with what you are saying here because thats what is there in scripture, i dont really understand the thinking that we should only accept parts of it, because things like " repent of your sins" will somehow destroy your life, or obey my commandments, will somehow lead you astray. i believe faith is very simple Believe and trust, and actually obey what God says to do. and thats faith. trust Jesus died as an atonement, and then learn and follow His word to everlasting Life, if a person messes up, simply follow the word of repentance and forgiving others, and then get back to walking in the things you have learned are right.


thanks for the great post Here, God bless and Keep you in the things of Jesus Christ our Lord and precious Savior !! whos word will never harm or lead astray anyone who will follow .

 

[willybob]

Jesus finished the way of salvation via the new covenant, in that He justified God's mercy, which allowed Him to send the empowerment of the Holy Ghost, so that man could be freed from sin and reconciled back to the Father's favor through repentance, and faith proven by deeds...

 

[followjesus]

Jesus finished the way of salvation via the new covenant, in that He justified God's mercy, which allowed Him to send the empowerment of the Holy Ghost, so that man could be freed from sin and reconciled back to the Father's favor through repentance, and faith proven by deeds...

"the obedience of Faith", God bless bro good to see you on

 

[graceNpeace]

and then after the cross, He says " go teach the world to obey the things i taught you." so im the same i take the finished work of the cross to leave out the spirit and Life of the gospel, which is the word of God. when i see everything Jesus teaches of His words, He says they are freedom from sin, spirit and Life, the truth from God , He says they will never pass away, He says they will bring the Holy ghost, he says so many things regarding the things He said and then send His disciples out into the world to teach those things to the world.

its why im confused about the cross changing anything He said, i rather Look at His crucifixion and resurrection, as the sealing of His words as moses sealed the law in the old testament. which as hebrews is clear was only a foretelling shadow of the good things to come

Hebrews 9:15-22 "And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. ( to me this is the purpose of His death to put the new testament of the gospel into place and authority)

(and then it goes on to use the example of the first testament) 18Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.


so isnt the gospel what the blood seals, and binds to believers as the blood bound the Law of moses to the isrealites?


so really the finished work is all of the 4 gospels, its the provision everything He said, and everything He did to make it eternal and fulfill the old, set in place the new ? then to look at the communion he taught " this is the blood of the covenant, and this is my body which is broken for you"


i think much the same that its not only about Jesus dying and being raised n hebrews again were told about the resurrection, being the means by Which Jesus became the High priest " by the power of an indestructable Life" in the order of melchezidek High priest long before the order of aaron was given, or before the Law ever was. this is why i just dont really see how the work of the cross is our saving Grace, but rather a part of it, like the sacrificial system was in the law, a part of it. that didnt mean the people werent still taught by God and commanded to follow His words.

"its why im confused about the cross changing anything He said, i rather Look at His crucifixion and resurrection, as the sealing of His words as moses sealed the law in the old testament. which as hebrews is clear was only a foretelling shadow of the good things to come"

The reason that you are so confused is because you completely misinterpret Hebrews (and probably everything Paul ever wrote).
You quoted Hebrews 9:15-22 but you don't get what it is telling you.
Obviously, the testator spoken about is Jesus Christ.
However, what is the testament?
When I asked you, you made up some nonsense about it being the Old and New Testaments, but that is NOT what this referring to.
The Testament comes later in the same chapter, but the first key is found in vs 22:
22 [FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Heb 9:22
[/FONT]vs 22 states clearly that blood sacrifice is necessary for the remission of sin.

Now onto vs 23-28:

[FONT=&quot]23 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]24 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]25 n[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ot that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another—[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]26 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]27 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot] Eph 9:23-28

The testator, Jesus Christ, a testator because he died (as explained in Heb 9:16-17), has proclaimed his testament in vs 28:
[FONT=&quot]so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Heb 9:28

The significance of this is what passes you by - Christ did not die on the cross to: "[/FONT][/FONT]so isnt the gospel what the blood seals, and binds to believers as the blood bound the Law of moses to the isrealites?


so really the finished work is all of the 4 gospels, its the provision everything He said, and everything He did to make it eternal and fulfill the old, set in place the new ? then to look at the communion he taught " this is the blood of the covenant, and this is my body which is broken for you"

Jesus did not die on the cross so that four books could be written about Him! It has nothing to do with whether anything was written down or not, and if it did (which is what you seem to think) I am puzzled as to why the rest of the New Testament does not seem to register with you!

No!
The reason we speak of the finished work of the cross is that the death that Jesus Christ died on the cross and the blood that He shed was to settle the sin debt that we all owe to God.
Remember: 22 [FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Heb 9:22
However: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Heb 9:28[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

So, through the vicarious death of Jesus Christ on the cross, the righteous demands of the Law are set aside. He had to die because death is the necessary consequence of sin, remember Rom 6:23?
Although we will still a physical death our eternity is assured, again remember Rom 6:23:
[/FONT]23 [FONT=&quot]For the wages of sin [/FONT]is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 6:23

The significance of what Jesus Christ achieved on the cross (His testament and the real Gospel) is the reason that history has been split into two parts - Before Christ and After!

When I asked you what the Gospel was and what the Testament was that was been referred to in Hebrews chapter 9 this was the sort of thing I hoped you would come up with.

 

[followjesus]

"its why im confused about the cross changing anything He said, i rather Look at His crucifixion and resurrection, as the sealing of His words as moses sealed the law in the old testament. which as hebrews is clear was only a foretelling shadow of the good things to come"

The reason that you are so confused is because you completely misinterpret Hebrews (and probably everything Paul ever wrote).
You quoted Hebrews 9:15-22 but you don't get what it is telling you.
Obviously, the testator spoken about is Jesus Christ.
However, what is the testament?
When I asked you, you made up some nonsense about it being the Old and New Testaments, but that is NOT what this referring to.
The Testament comes later in the same chapter, but the first key is found in vs 22:
22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission. Heb 9:22
vs 22 states clearly that blood sacrifice is necessary for the remission of sin.

Now onto vs 23-28:

23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another—26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Eph 9:23-28

The testator, Jesus Christ, a testator because he died (as explained in Heb 9:16-17), has proclaimed his testament in vs 28:
so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. Heb 9:28

The significance of this is what passes you by - Christ did not die on the cross to: "so isnt the gospel what the blood seals, and binds to believers as the blood bound the Law of moses to the isrealites?


so really the finished work is all of the 4 gospels, its the provision everything He said, and everything He did to make it eternal and fulfill the old, set in place the new ? then to look at the communion he taught " this is the blood of the covenant, and this is my body which is broken for you"

Jesus did not die on the cross so that four books could be written about Him! It has nothing to do with whether anything was written down or not, and if it did (which is what you seem to think) I am puzzled as to why the rest of the New Testament does not seem to register with you!

No!
The reason we speak of the finished work of the cross is that the death that Jesus Christ died on the cross and the blood that He shed was to settle the sin debt that we all owe to God.
Remember: 22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission. Heb 9:22
However: so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. Heb 9:28

So, through the vicarious death of Jesus Christ on the cross, the righteous demands of the Law are set aside. He had to die because death is the necessary consequence of sin, remember Rom 6:23?
Although we will still a physical death our eternity is assured, again remember Rom 6:23:
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 6:23

The significance of what Jesus Christ achieved on the cross (His testament and the real Gospel) is the reason that history has been split into two parts - Before Christ and After!

When I asked you what the Gospel was and what the Testament was that was been referred to in Hebrews chapter 9 this was the sort of thing I hoped you would come up with.

so your thonking is the death and resurrection is the new testament? alright i think i see now how this doctrine came about thanks for making that clear......

Luke 4:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

john 8:31-32


2 john 1:9 "Anyone who runs ahead without remaining in the teaching of Christ does not have God. Whoever remains in His teaching has both the Father and the Son.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

i understand some of what yu are saying and its more like i have always seen the "cross"

matthew 16:From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day. 22Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. 23But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


24Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 25For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. 26For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? 27For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.


to me this isnt saying its all finished, but more " follow my example"

im trying to grasp what so many seem to have found, because i dont want to be missing something important. im just kind of wondering How Jesus death cancels out all he said i guess....

Your not missing anything important. We all have room to learn but at some point in history someone decided once saved all this follow and do stuff comes naturally by the will of God. Making God a puppet master instead of sending a helper he sent a slave master.Instead of our free will to surrender daily to this helper and obey his guidance, somewhere in history someone wanted to make a new gospel that took any responsibility off the follower. They even go as far as saying God gives faith to who he wants, making even belief Gods choice. Taking complete free will away. Im tellin ya all these arguments come down to free will and faith. Its basically trying to create a religion that free will doesn't exist. But of course some are not as extreme as that but branch off that belief.

The question does free will exist before faith, after, or both. The question is faith mans response or Gods. And then what does ALL scripture have to say about faith.

 

[Gabriel2020]

Jesus said on the cross before he died, that it is finished. meaning the work he came here to do among mankind. defeating the works of the devil,and that was bringing as many as possible out of darkness to the light. the fact that Satan could not claim all of mankind proves he was defeated. and pouring out the holy spirit on all flesh before he left was a powerful weapon.

 

[followjesus]

Your not missing anything important. We all have room to learn but at some point in history someone decided once saved all this follow and do stuff comes naturally by the will of God. Making God a puppet master instead of sending a helper he sent a slave master.Instead of our free will to surrender daily to this helper and obey his guidance, somewhere in history someone wanted to make a new gospel that took any responsibility off the follower. They even go as far as saying God gives faith to who he wants, making even belief Gods choice. Taking complete free will away. Im tellin ya all these arguments come down to free will and faith. Its basically trying to create a religion that free will doesn't exist. But of course some are not as extreme as that but branch off that belief.

The question does free will exist before faith, after, or both. The question is faith mans response or Gods. And then what does ALL scripture have to say about faith.

yeah honestly after this thread and the many explainations and the way people approach it, im pretty much convinced its just another way to omit the gospel , and label it self works to repent and obey as Jesus clearly taught


which as you Know faith comes from Hearing the Word...so its really evident whos behind the doctrine ultimately. its amazing how the scriptures are avoided and twisted to omit the only One who gave the gospel, i believe peters warning about pauls letters should be heeded by many. and definatley the grace revolution books have to be gotten away from because ultimately thats whos teaching this stuff. and explaining things like the finished works omission of the gospel. i heard one guy explaining

" anything the bible says you need to do, or anything the bible says that makes you feel guilty is of the devil, not from God" its silly to me, but yet it seems to be really taking peoples hearts and minds its like a brick wall sometimes always troubling to see the willingness to cast away the gospel ministry of Jesus because its where Life is given.

 

[graceNpeace]

The finished work of Christ is not a doctrine in itself - it is a summary statement, a phrase, that denotes the significance of what Jesus Christ accomplished on the cross for us.
It is true to say without this understanding there is no possibility that one can really be a Christian simply because one is putting one's faith in a false view of Christ.
Likewise, one's doctrinal views will be hopelessly flawed.

 

[followjesus]

Jesus said on the cross before he died, that it is finished. meaning the work he came here to do among mankind. defeating the works of the devil,and that was bringing as many as possible out of darkness to the light. the fact that Satan could not claim all of mankind proves he was defeated. and pouring out the holy spirit on all flesh before he left was a powerful weapon.

Jesus said He finished the Work God gave Him to do before he went to the cross.

john 17:4-8 "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.


he doesnt just send the holy ghost to people, its for His disciples only thats why He sent His disciples into the world, to teach the world to learn and obey His commands in the gospel because of what He said about Keeping His commands in the gospel. sure He was exalted and shed forth the spirit being seated at the right hand of God, He said he was going to send it, he also said

this

john 14:15-26 "If ye love me, keep my commandments.16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. 22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


it seems as if Jesus knew about the holy spirit given its his promise

the nafter the resurrection He says this

matthew 28:18-20 "And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


He said this because the Holy spirit is for His disciples. Even His disciples today. its no different. the reason people are confused by the epistles, is because the disciples did as Jesus told them they went out and taught the people to obey the things Jesus taught them to obey, thats what the church is founded upon, thats the same thing Paul did, taught them the same things Jesus taught, repentance, right Living, the priniciples of the gospel. all because Jesus died for them too, its about Who will respond to what He did on the cross and Love Him because He Loved them