Grace 101

UnderGrace · Jun 8, 2017

When Romans 12:3 says “God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith,” ......

It is not faith in the sense of believing God’s Word unto salvation, justification, heaven, eternal life, et cetera. Remember, that was already discussed in Romans. Salvation faith is not a gift and the faith in this passage is not about salvation.

The “faith” of Romans 12:3 is explained for us in verse 6, “let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith.” There are degrees (“measures,” verse 3) of this type of “faith.”

The “faith” of Romans 12:3 is in reference to spiritual gifts (Christian service) and “proportion.” What does “proportion” mean? See the word “portion” in it? “Proportion” means, “a part, share, or number considered in comparative relation to a whole.” With each gift God gives a portion of faith to utilize that gift.

UnderGrace · Jun 8, 2017

Exactly... sound reasoning reneweddaybyday...

that is why this notion that salvation faith is a gift is so not biblical!!

Thank you!!

reneweddaybyday said:

dcontroversal · Jun 8, 2017

UnderGrace said:

You should grammatically break down Ephesians 2:8...That not of YOURSELVES is directed at the faith that saves......the faith that saves IS THE GIFT...I know you will reject this from me.....go to the GREEK, break it down or ask one who knows ENGLISH grammar......

I know numerous here reject this, but grammatically it is sound.......

UnderGrace · Jun 8, 2017

Well I do disagree, I am an English major and a teacher and while I do not know Greek, I speak fluently French and Italian so I know how difficult it can be to understand the nuances of a language unless you are raised speaking that language.

All my investigation into this does not support that faith is a gift from God and in fact the Greek does not support it either. If faith was the gift then it would be that those that were not saved were not given the faith by God to be saved. This is antithetical completely to the Gospel message of Good News for all people.

I consider this a very important doctrine I hope you will also reconsider how your perspective actually diminishes the great commission of telling people the Good News since God must first gift them faith before they can be given the gift of salvation.

Interesting that Jesus never told Nicodemus they he first needed to receive the gift of faith before he believed.

This is from my files I hope it helps persuade you.

“For by grace have you been saved through faith; and that not of your selves, it is the gift of God ....”
There is no specifically-stated antecedent for “gift” in this context. However, it is to be inferred. The gift is the salvation that is implied by the verb “saved.”

“For by grace are you saved through faith; and this not of yourselves, it [the salvation] is gift of God....”
Grammatically speaking, there is no agreement between “faith” and “gift.” Faith (pisteos) in the Greek Testament is a feminine form, while “gift” (doron) is neuter gender. The “gift” is not “faith.”

Some have objected to this argument, contending that the Greek noun for “salvation” is also feminine, thus it cannot be the antecedent of “gift.” While it is true that the Greek noun, “salvation,” is a feminine form, the verbal construction found here used in connection with a neuter pronoun (“this”) requires that the antecedent must also be neuter, thus, “salvation” [understood], not “faith” (see: Lockhart, 86; Cottrell, 200).

Professor Arthur Patzia of Fuller Theological Seminary, who believes, “theologically” speaking, that faith is a gift, acknowledges that “the Greek sentence [Eph. 2:8] does not permit such an identification, because the two words differ grammatically” (185).

Even John Calvin interpreted the “gift” of this passage as “salvation,” and not faith (144). This, of course, is in perfect harmony with Paul’s declaration elsewhere that the “gift of God is eternal life” (Rom. 6:23).

dcontroversal said:

dcontroversal · Jun 8, 2017

UnderGrace said:

Well I do disagree, I am an English major and a teacher and while I do not know Greek, I speak fluently French and Italian so I know how difficult it can be to understand the nuances of a language unless you are raised speaking that language.

All my investigation into this does not support that faith is a gift from God and in fact the Greek does not support it either. If faith was the gift then it would be that those that were not saved were not given the faith by God to be saved. This is antithetical completely to the Gospel message of Good News for all people.

I consider this a very important doctrine I hope you will also reconsider how your perspective actually diminishes the great commission of telling people the Good News since God must first gift them faith before they can be given the gift of salvation.

Interesting that Jesus never told Nicodemus they he first needed to receive the gift of faith before he believed.

This is from my files I hope it helps persuade you.

“For by grace have you been saved through faith; and that not of your selves, it is the gift of God ....”
There is no specifically-stated antecedent for “gift” in this context. However, it is to be inferred. The gift is the salvation that is implied by the verb “saved.”

“For by grace are you saved through faith; and this not of yourselves, it [the salvation] is gift of God....”
Grammatically speaking, there is no agreement between “faith” and “gift.” Faith (pisteos) in the Greek Testament is a feminine form, while “gift” (doron) is neuter gender. The “gift” is not “faith.”

Some have objected to this argument, contending that the Greek noun for “salvation” is also feminine, thus it cannot be the antecedent of “gift.” While it is true that the Greek noun, “salvation,” is a feminine form, the verbal construction found here used in connection with a neuter pronoun (“this”) requires that the antecedent must also be neuter, thus, “salvation” [understood], not “faith” (see: Lockhart, 86; Cottrell, 200).

Professor Arthur Patzia of Fuller Theological Seminary, who believes, “theologically” speaking, that faith is a gift, acknowledges that “the Greek sentence [Eph. 2:8] does not permit such an identification, because the two words differ grammatically” (185).

Even John Calvin interpreted the “gift” of this passage as “salvation,” and not faith (144). This, of course, is in perfect harmony with Paul’s declaration elsewhere that the “gift of God is eternal life” (Rom. 6:23).

I could care less what Calvin and the other guys said.....grammatically speaking that not of yourselves is directed at the FAITH that saves......

In the grace you are having been saved out of FAITH, AND THAT NOT OF YOURSLVES, OF GOD the GIFT IS......

In THE GRACE YOU ARE <---positioning
SAVED out of FAITH<----the means/source

and the SOURCE--->THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES...OF GOD the GIFT IS

JESUS is the BEGINNER and FINISHER of our faith

Choose in pride to reject the above grammatically truth...I could care less.......

UnderGrace · Jun 8, 2017

Interesting, I am the one with the pride...yet you offer no proof of your position based on the Greek.

okee dokee

I am moving on.....

dcontroversal said:

dcontroversal · Jun 9, 2017

UnderGrace said:

Your the one who boasted of your language skills....if you cannot see it in plain English and or accept it you will not receive is no matter how it is dealt pal......

And that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.—This attribution of all to the gift of God seems to cover the whole idea—both the gift of salvation and the gift of faith to accept it. The former part is enforced by the words “not of works,” the latter by the declaration, “we (and all that is in us) are His workmanship.” The word here rendered “gift” is peculiar to this passage; the word employed in Romans 5:15-16; Romans 6:23, for “free gift” (charisma) having been appropriated (both in the singular and plural) to special “gifts” of grace.

Originally Posted by dcontroversal

I could care less what Calvin and the other guys said.....grammatically speaking that not of yourselves is directed at the FAITH that saves......

In the grace you are having been saved out of FAITH, AND THAT NOT OF YOURSLVES, OF GOD the GIFT IS......

In THE GRACE YOU ARE <---positioning
SAVED out of FAITH<----the means/source

and the SOURCE--->THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES...OF GOD the GIFT IS

JESUS is the BEGINNER and FINISHER of our faith

Choose in pride to reject the above grammatically truth...I could care less.......

dcontroversal · Jun 9, 2017

WHAT does the following imply.....

Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

ἀρχηγὸν-->originator, author, founder

Part of Speech: Noun

Case: Accusative
Gender: Masculine
Number: Singular

How do men get faith......are we born with it, do we earn it, is it a natural process?

The bible states we are dead in trespasses and sin, spiritually dead, without any natural desire to know and do right, not seeking GOD, lost, no fear of God and not seeking after GOD

The bible states that NO MAN comes unto the SON unless drawn of the FATHER

SO.....1st Corinthians 12 and 13 deals with SPIRITUAL GIFTS and qualifies FAITH as one of the three remaining (regardless of those who believe in tongues etc.) This is not about that....

SO.....SOMEONE explain how man acquires faith......

THE WORD is JESUS right or wrong?

FAITH comes by HEARING and HEARING by the WORD of GOD

WHO or WHAT is the source of FAITH? GOD not man....

SO....explain how man gets faith......!

reneweddaybyday · Jun 9, 2017

preacher4truth said:

Those who are without excuse are those who do not glorify God and who become unthankful as God is revealed to them through creation. Rather than glorifying the Creator, they suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18) and become unthankful (Rom 1:21).

preacher4truth said:

Romans 9:19-20 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

So, according to you, those who are without excuse have not resisted God's will?

That is not what Rom 1:18 says. Rom 1:18 says those who do not come to faith suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

In other words, when faced with the truth, which God brings to each person throughout the lifetime of all persons because God wants all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4), those who do not believe suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18). But according to your Rom 9:20, they have not resisted God’s Will. So they do have an excuse and can remind God of that come judgment day.

preacher4truth said:

I am not granting anything. I have explained why the unbeliever will not have an excuse. The unbeliever suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, even though he/she has been given all he/she needs in order to hear the gospel and have their faith strengthened/increased by God.

You do not agree and prefer to believe that God gives something to the believer which He does not give to the unbeliever and then accuse me of placing blame at God's feet. I have done nothing of the sort.

As far as unbelievers not wanting an excuse, Jesus tells us there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth so there will be some sort of concern about where they will be going.

preacher4truth said:

Right. Salvation is the gift of God.

As far as being "fair", God is more than fair when it comes to whether or not all have an opportunity to come to faith.

preacher4truth said:

Nope. All I did was show that God affords to every person that which is needed in order to believe.

Under your scenario, the unbeliever has an excuse because God has given to the believer something He did not give to the unbeliever. Add to that the fact that the unbeliever did exactly as God "willed" according to your Rom 9:19-20.

preather4truth said:

Even the believer was in this state.

preacher4truth said:

In agreement they do not want to have anything to do with God.

Disagree that I am "making it out as if they really love God" ... although they will claim to have a relationship with Him (the "Lord, Lord" guys).

Scripture makes clear that God wants all be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. And God provides all that is necessary for "all" to do so.

graceNpeace · Jun 9, 2017

UnderGrace said:

I will take up the argument about Eph 2:8-9 and exposit from the GNK.

The key to deciding whether grace or faith, or grace AND faith, is the gift referred to, is found in the form of the demonstrative pronoun "this".
In Eph 2:8 the form of "this that is used is the neuter form of the nominative singular - τοῦτο

In order to decide which antecedent is being referred, grace or faith, one needs to examine the gender of these nouns:
As it turns out both grace - χάριτί - and faith - πίστεως - are both feminine in gender.
This makes it HIGHLY unlikely that τοῦτο is referring back to either one in isolation, otherwise the form of "this" used would have been feminine - αὕτη - and the sentence structure changed to make it clear which noun was the antecedent.

In addition, it cannot be argued that gift -δῶρον (also a neuter nominative singular) - is the predicative nominative of τοῦτο, thus explaining the so-called gender shift of τοῦτο.

The only alternative is to view the whole phrase "For by grace you have been saved through faith" as the antecedent. The whole phrase is what the "this" is referring to as being "not of yourselves".
Furthermore the phrase "and this" - καὶ τοῦτο, may be used in an adverbial sense in which the sense it is an intensification as: "and [you are saved] especially not of yourselves".

The next phrase "it is the gift of God", in context can only refer back to the entire first phrase "For by grace you have been saved through faith" for the sentence to make any sense in itself (theological considerations aside), especially considering the final phrase in the sentence "not of works, lest anyone should boast."
What is the gift of God - Salvation by grace through faith.
What is not of works lest any should boast - Salvation by grace through faith.

Hope this helps.

Johnny_B · Jun 9, 2017

John 3:3 “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” without grace no one can see the kingdom of God.

“The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the Lord hath even made both of them.” Proverbs 20:12 “No; while the sinner is still dead in trespasses and sins, before the work of God has begun in him, he is already chosen and ordained, justified and sanctified, adopted as God's child and glorified. This is what filled St. Paul with such ecstasy of joy when he said: "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." Romans 8:29, 30.

Excerpt From: Abraham Kuyper. “Saved by Grace Alone.” iBooks.

Back to Ephesians 2:4-7 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

The Father made us alive, not by faith, but by His grace -- unmerited favor -- that we would not boast in anything that we do, including faith. If the Father saved us by our faith, He would be saving us by a merit we had done which would be faith no longer by grace, faith is our part in salvation. It is our response to His grace in making us alive from our trespasses and sins, this is all we give in our salvation is our trespasses and sins. The Father gave His only begotten Son and Christ gave His life, this is His gift to us, undeserved sinners who love wickedness over light. Yet in His great love which He lavished upon us, that grace, we are made alive to respond to Him in faith and repentance, that we may live a live for Him and to Him. The Scriptures say nothing of our faith saving us, only grace through faith. Through is the continual exercise that is the active result of that saving grace that the Father provides or awakens us to life in the Son, our response is faith that is our continued salvation. Without it there is no proof that we are not saved.

It is our continued faith that shows that we are saved Colossians 1:21-23 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds,22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him,23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

If, is not a conditional clause it is a conjunction. If you believe that you can do something to receive salvation, then there is something you can do to lose it.

PeterJens · Jun 9, 2017

UnderGrace said:

Faith - A gift of choice.

Jesus wanted to say to His disciples He chose them. Jesus thanks the Father He gave Jesus
His disciples and He kept them safe.

Paul again is an example of a man chosen.

We are servants to the King, and our lostness means without Him first moving through His word
spoken to our hearts we would be nowhere.

Once brought into life, we can let the word go.
Jesus paints the word as a seed with the potential of life, and it depends on the state of our
hearts whether it springs to life or dies etc.

This is Gods grace to me. I know how lost I was in mind and spirit, and only because His word
spoke to my heart did I get up and follow. I owe all to Him, though without my response I would
have found nothing.

I await to meet someone who sought God and found Him through their efforts.
Mostly it is people getting desperate calling out to the Lord in prayer and He answers with truth,
love and anointing. Without this response we are nothing. We have nothing we can actually boast
in. For my love compared to the Lords is nothing, He blows me away, Halleluyah.

UnderGrace · Jun 9, 2017

First of all I was not boasting and it is unfortunate you read it that way.

I was stating the facts. I am very well acquainted with grammar, writing and editing I have written more that enough papers and marked more than enough papers to have skill in this area. I stated this to dismiss your statement that I should familiarize myself with grammar.

The intention of my statement was to say when you are raised speaking other languages you know how idioms and phrasing is so different, it is helpful to know the original language which I said I do not know Greek, however based on those that do this is what they say and I posted a quote.

If you see this a boast so be it, I see no reason to hide my training, why should any of us if it adds to our understanding and posts.

If we could just stick to this passage it is clear that Paul is addressing salvation right from the start of the chapter.

Salvation faith is not a work neither is it a gift.

Belief and faith are our part for salvation and it in the sentence refers to salvation since this what Paul is talking about in the whole passage.

dcontroversal said:

dcontroversal · Jun 9, 2017

POST 167 and 170..........

UnderGrace said:

First of all I was not boasting and it is unfortunate you read it that way.

I was stating the facts. I am very well acquainted with grammar, writing and editing I have written more that enough papers and marked more than enough papers to have skill in this area. I stated this to dismiss your statement that I should familiarize myself with grammar.

The intention of my statement was to say when you are raised speaking other languages you know how idioms and phrasing is so different, it is helpful to know the original language which I said I do not know Greek, however based on those that do this is what they say and I posted a quote.

If you see this a boast so be it, I see no reason to hide my training, why should any of us if it adds to our understanding and posts.

If we could just stick to this passage it is clear that Paul is addressing salvation right from the start of the chapter.

Salvation faith is not a work neither is it a gift.

Belief and faith are our part for salvation and it in the sentence refers to salvation since this what Paul is talking about in the whole passage.

Muzungu256 · Jun 9, 2017

UnderGrace said:

read ephesians 2:8-9!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Meggido · Jun 9, 2017

reneweddaybyday said:

Those who are without excuse are those who do not glorify God and who become unthankful as God is revealed to them through creation. Rather than glorifying the Creator, they suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18) and become unthankful (Rom 1:21).

Romans 9:19-20 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

So, according to you, those who are without excuse have not resisted God's will?

That is not what Rom 1:18 says. Rom 1:18 says those who do not come to faith suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

In other words, when faced with the truth, which God brings to each person throughout the lifetime of all persons because God wants all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4), those who do not believe suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18). But according to your Rom 9:20, they have not resisted God’s Will. So they do have an excuse and can remind God of that come judgment day.

I am not granting anything. I have explained why the unbeliever will not have an excuse. The unbeliever suppresses the truth in unrighteousness, even though he/she has been given all he/she needs in order to hear the gospel and have their faith strengthened/increased by God.

You do not agree and prefer to believe that God gives something to the believer which He does not give to the unbeliever and then accuse me of placing blame at God's feet. I have done nothing of the sort.

As far as unbelievers not wanting an excuse, Jesus tells us there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth so there will be some sort of concern about where they will be going.

Right. Salvation is the gift of God.

As far as being "fair", God is more than fair when it comes to whether or not all have an opportunity to come to faith.

Nope. All I did was show that God affords to every person that which is needed in order to believe.

Under your scenario, the unbeliever has an excuse because God has given to the believer something He did not give to the unbeliever. Add to that the fact that the unbeliever did exactly as God "willed" according to your Rom 9:19-20.

Even the believer was in this state.

In agreement they do not want to have anything to do with God.

Disagree that I am "making it out as if they really love God" ... although they will claim to have a relationship with Him (the "Lord, Lord" guys).

Scripture makes clear that God wants all be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. And God provides all that is necessary for "all" to do so.

renewed-
p4t is a Calvinist who believes solidly in election and predestination and that there is no free choice.

Save your fingers, he will just go in circles with you without being honest about his beliefs

UnderGrace · Jun 9, 2017

dcontroversal said:

The tragedy of this position is that it perverts the gospel.

A person is really being told that the condition of salvation is a prayer requesting faith.

So the gift is not really a gift at all, since first we have to ask for for the means (faith) to obtain the gift since we do not have the means (faith).

Such illogic

For those guests that may be reading know that all can come to the Father in faith which is not a gift from God. You do not need to pray to God to have faith to be born again.

Acts 16:31 is very clear. God must do the saving; man must do the believing. The saving is something that God alone must do. The believing is something that the sinner must do. God does not do the believing for man.

Explained clearly here again....

The correct rule that Greek grammar demands be followed: Pronouns agree with their antecedent in gender and number. Their case is determined by their use in their own clause. [A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament by H. E. Dana and Julius Mantey, p. 125 (Section 135).]

This rule argues forcefully against the identification of "faith" as the antecedent because "faith" does not agree with the pronoun in gender. The pronoun "this" (verse 8) is NEUTER, and the noun "faith" (verse 8) is FEMININE. If Paul wanted his readers to understand the pronoun as referring to "faith," then there is no reason why he would not have used the feminine form of the demonstrative pronoun [which would be the Greek word αυτη]. This would have settled it. The verse would read, "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and this feminine thing [namely faith], is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." If Paul had used the feminine pronoun then it would be very clear, obvious and indisputable that FAITH is the gift of God. However, Paul did not use the feminine pronoun.

Why then did Paul use the neuter pronoun? What is the antecedent? If Paul had wanted to refer to the idea contained in the main verb (the idea of being SAVED), then it would have been perfectly normal and appropriate for him to use the neuter gender. It would have been very natural for Paul to say, "For by grace ARE YE SAVED through faith and this thing that I'm talking about, namely salvation, is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God...." If Paul had wanted the pronoun to refer to the idea or concept contained in the verb, the neuter form would be the one to use. The pronoun "this thing" [τοØτο] commonly takes a conceptual antecedent. [Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics by Daniel B. Wallace, p. 335.]

We need to carefully think through Ephesians 2:8-9 in order to correctly identify the antecedent. We must ask, "What is Paul talking about in Ephesians 2:8-9? What is his main point?" It is obvious that Paul is talking about HOW A PERSON IS SAVED. The main idea of the sentence is found in the verb "ARE YE SAVED" [or "YE ARE SAVED"]. How is a person saved? Ephesians 2:8-9 answers this key question. Salvation is by grace. Salvation is through faith. Salvation is not of yourselves. Salvation is the GIFT OF GOD. Salvation is not of works.

Middletown Bible church - Know about our Lord Jesus Christ, Salvation, Sin, Truth and More

Paul is not giving a dissertation on faith, but he is giving a brief dissertation on salvation.
SALVATION is his main subject.

Faith is mentioned because you cannot answer the question "HOW IS A PERSON SAVED?" without mentioning faith.

A person is saved by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31).

God's gracious gift of salvation must be personally received, and it is received by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. But the main thing that Paul is talking about in these two verses is salvation, not faith.

Rockrz · Jun 9, 2017

Wow! I had no idea "okee dokee" was greek... what number is that in Strong's?

Rockrz · Jun 9, 2017

You do need to confess Jesus as your Lord and Savior and as such you are praying to God... speaking to Him is prayer and prayer is speaking.

UnderGrace · Jun 9, 2017

The statement can be better clarified.

A person does not need to pray to God to be given faith/belief in order to be saved.

The problem with seeing salvation faith as a gift means that people must request/pray for salvation faith/belief before being able to confess Jesus as Savior.

Did you pray for the gift of faith before confessing Jesus as Saviour?

Yes speaking to God is prayer...it is true.

Rockrz said:

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