Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)
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Chris1975, you have changed these verses to mean something God never intended.
That word "chastens" in Heb 12:6, "chastisement" in Heb 12:8, and "chastening" in Heb 12:7, 11 is the Gr. paideia and it means discipline; training and education. God trains and educates us and part of the training and education is disciplining.
In Heb 12:8 God tells us He trains all His children and if we are without that training, it is questionable whether we are, in fact, a child of God. Notice there is no mention of the child rejecting repentance.
There is a suggestion that the chastening is grievous. The whole point of the discipline/chastening by God is the resulting peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them who are exercised thereby (Heb 12:11).
Heb 12:8 says if we are without chastisement then we are not children of God.
Heb 12:8 does not say if we run from the chastening, that we are illegitimate.
And Heb 12:11 says that no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous.
Nothing in that section says that the children "reject Repentance".
That word "chastens" in Heb 12:6, "chastisement" in Heb 12:8, and "chastening" in Heb 12:7, 11 is the Gr. paideia and it means discipline; training and education. God trains and educates us and part of the training and education is disciplining.
In Heb 12:8 God tells us He trains all His children and if we are without that training, it is questionable whether we are, in fact, a child of God. Notice there is no mention of the child rejecting repentance.
There is a suggestion that the chastening is grievous. The whole point of the discipline/chastening by God is the resulting peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them who are exercised thereby (Heb 12:11).
Heb 12:8 says if we are without chastisement then we are not children of God.
Heb 12:8 does not say if we run from the chastening, that we are illegitimate.
And Heb 12:11 says that no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous.
Nothing in that section says that the children "reject Repentance".
Chastening means disciplinary correction. Those who are with correction (are taught by it, learn from it, correct their behaviours --- are sons). Those who are without chastening (reject its instruction, do not learn, do not correct their behaviours --- are illegitimate).
The evidence of repentance is correction in behaviour.
The evidence of repentance is correction in behaviour.
We essentially disagree (Dan and me) over the whole OP post. Those are my views. His views differ. We essentially differ over verses like this:
Hebrews 10
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Now the[SUP][k][/SUP] just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”[SUP][l][/SUP] [SUP]39 [/SUP]But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
Clearly the only way for someone to draw back from faith is to have had faith. We know that many are called but only few are chosen. If you believe in once saved always saved, you have to twist scriptures like the ones above to try force fit doctrine, instead of taking them at face value.
Its not an INITIAL faith that saves you to the end. Its a CONTINUING FAITH that saves you to the end. If you draw back at any point (v38 above) then the Lord is not pleased with such a person, and their end is perdition.
Here are some more verses which may help:
1 Peter 1v5 (KJV) [SUP]5 [/SUP]Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Romans 13v11 [SUP]11 [/SUP]And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.
Hebrews 9v28 [SUP]28 [/SUP]so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
Whereas Dan will say they were never really in the faith, my view is that yes, they were in the faith. They just never exercised it. Never Kept it. Never fought for it. So they eventually lose it. These are those who are in the two middle type soils.
Hebrews 10
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Now the[SUP][k][/SUP] just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”[SUP][l][/SUP] [SUP]39 [/SUP]But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.
Clearly the only way for someone to draw back from faith is to have had faith. We know that many are called but only few are chosen. If you believe in once saved always saved, you have to twist scriptures like the ones above to try force fit doctrine, instead of taking them at face value.
Its not an INITIAL faith that saves you to the end. Its a CONTINUING FAITH that saves you to the end. If you draw back at any point (v38 above) then the Lord is not pleased with such a person, and their end is perdition.
Here are some more verses which may help:
1 Peter 1v5 (KJV) [SUP]5 [/SUP]Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Romans 13v11 [SUP]11 [/SUP]And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.
Hebrews 9v28 [SUP]28 [/SUP]so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
Whereas Dan will say they were never really in the faith, my view is that yes, they were in the faith. They just never exercised it. Never Kept it. Never fought for it. So they eventually lose it. These are those who are in the two middle type soils.
Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.
No, they actually drew back before faith was firmly rooted and established. Those who draw back fall short of believing to the saving of the soul. Just as we read in Hebrews 12:15 - ..fails to obtain the grace of God (ESV); ..comes short of the grace of God (NAS)
A verse at face value "apart from the context" leads to twisting the scriptures.
Genuine faith continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. Faith that fails to continue demonstrates that initial faith was merely an "empty profession of faith" and not genuine faith.
Because they drew back to perdition and did not believe to the saving of the soul. They fell short of the grace of God.
Don't forget that there are 3 tenses to salvation. 1. We have been saved (past tense) from the PENALTY of sin (justification). 2. We are being saved (present tense) from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification). 3. We will be saved (future tense) from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification). These tenses often get mixed up by works salvationists which leads them to believe that we are not truly saved until the end.
If the two middle type soils are descriptive of saving faith, then where is the fruit? *In CONTRAST, we read in Matthew 13:23 - "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who INDEED BEARS FRUIT and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."
No, they actually drew back before faith was firmly rooted and established. Those who draw back fall short of believing to the saving of the soul. Just as we read in Hebrews 12:15 - ..fails to obtain the grace of God (ESV); ..comes short of the grace of God (NAS)
A verse at face value "apart from the context" leads to twisting the scriptures.
Genuine faith continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away. Faith that fails to continue demonstrates that initial faith was merely an "empty profession of faith" and not genuine faith.
Because they drew back to perdition and did not believe to the saving of the soul. They fell short of the grace of God.
Don't forget that there are 3 tenses to salvation. 1. We have been saved (past tense) from the PENALTY of sin (justification). 2. We are being saved (present tense) from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification). 3. We will be saved (future tense) from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification). These tenses often get mixed up by works salvationists which leads them to believe that we are not truly saved until the end.
If the two middle type soils are descriptive of saving faith, then where is the fruit? *In CONTRAST, we read in Matthew 13:23 - "And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who INDEED BEARS FRUIT and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty."
As much as you want the verses to say what you have stated, they do not.
Those who are without chastening are not chastened because they are not (and never were) the children of the Father.
Nowhere in the section is there any indication that there is rejection of instruction, or that the children do not learn, or that the children do not correct their behaviors.
You have added those thoughts to this section of Scripture.
Those who are without chastening are not chastened because they are not (and never were) the children of the Father.
Nowhere in the section is there any indication that there is rejection of instruction, or that the children do not learn, or that the children do not correct their behaviors.
You have added those thoughts to this section of Scripture.
Can a Christian who has outbursts of anger from time to time - still go to heaven if they died tonight right after they had an outburst of anger?
Can a Christian who has over eaten so much ( that is a form of lasciviousness which means without restraint ) that they are sick from diseases - they die tonight - will they go to heaven?
Can a Christian that has envy towards some one else because they have a better job - if they died tonight - would they go to heaven?
Can a Christian who causes strife and division amongst others - if they died tonight - would they go to heaven?
Can a Christian who has deceitfully mis-represented what others are saying - if they died tonight - would they go to heaven?
Can a Christian who slanders others in the body of Christ - if they died tonight - would they go to heaven?
Can a Christian that has enmity which is hostility towards others - if they died tonight - would they go to heaven?
Can a Christian that is doing some sort of immorality - if they died tonight - would they go to heaven?
All of these and many others are all in the lists of the works of the flesh. I don't advocate doing any of them because as I have said about 50x times - all the works of the flesh bring destruction to us in some form or other.
Can a Christian who has over eaten so much ( that is a form of lasciviousness which means without restraint ) that they are sick from diseases - they die tonight - will they go to heaven?
Can a Christian that has envy towards some one else because they have a better job - if they died tonight - would they go to heaven?
Can a Christian who causes strife and division amongst others - if they died tonight - would they go to heaven?
Can a Christian who has deceitfully mis-represented what others are saying - if they died tonight - would they go to heaven?
Can a Christian who slanders others in the body of Christ - if they died tonight - would they go to heaven?
Can a Christian that has enmity which is hostility towards others - if they died tonight - would they go to heaven?
Can a Christian that is doing some sort of immorality - if they died tonight - would they go to heaven?
All of these and many others are all in the lists of the works of the flesh. I don't advocate doing any of them because as I have said about 50x times - all the works of the flesh bring destruction to us in some form or other.
In order to keep the deceit down to a minimum - I will post this again for about the 15th time in the hope that it will be a blessing to someone who is struggling in their Christian life.
Personally I am vehemently against all forms of sinning as they all bring destruction of some sort to us while on this earth - especially the one of unbelief in Christ's finished work on the cross.
I don't see any difference in sinning by living a homosexual lifestyle to having malice, bitterness, having outbursts of anger, being deceitful, being jealous and envious and the slandering of others in the body of Christ. All of these, as well as all the works of the flesh bring about death to us in this life. They are contrary to the life off Christ in us now.
Here is my view on sin and it's affects on us and on how the Holy Spirit transforms us as we behold the glory ( goodness ) of our Lord as in a mirror. 2 Cor. 3:17-18
Sin changes our perspective on things and causes us to not look at our Father in the right light of who He truly is. ( The same as Adam and Eve did when they hid from Him even though He was still coming to visit with them and He still took care of them )
Sin also affects our ability to have harmonious relationships with others and it also distorts our view of others as well as ourselves. Sin is deceitful.
We chose to live holy lives because we are just being who we truly are in Christ - not to maintain right standing with God. This living good holy lives creates right relationships with people, it will not give our enemy an influence in our lives and it is a good witness to the world.
It reveals the true heart of our loving Father and Lord to show others in this hurt and dying world their love and grace towards them.
Your true identity is not defined by your struggles, mistakes, or sinful actions. These are all confined to the flesh and are the works of the flesh as Paul said. Who you are is defined by your new birth in Christ. You are who you are by His grace and life in you!
Behavioral issues are usually the result of trying to live under the law in some form - such as the false doctrine of "sinless perfection in the flesh".
This "lose your salvation" false doctrine which discourages believers and brings fear and hopelessness to them as they struggle in the flesh with some things.
This causes them to have their faith ship-wrecked because they feel condemned and don't know how to walk by the spirit yet nor are they taught the gospel of the grace of God in Christ properly in order to grow up in Him.
Once you understand you are completely accepted and sin free forever in Jesus in your inner man created in righteousness and holiness - and that this is your permanent state for all eternity in Christ - the behavioral issues will fall off of our lives like dead leaves.
The "sap" of His life in and through us transforms us outwardly by the Holy Spirit as we behold the glory ( goodness ) of the Lord Jesus as in a mirror. We see all the goodness that He has already done for us and we also see ourselves in Him as one spirit with the Lord. 2 Cor. 3:17-18
I maintain that the preaching and teaching of the love and grace of God in the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ brings true righteousness which is His alone and there will be deeds of His life manifested in us if we are fed Christ Himself and His righteousness to us.
He has cleansed our hearts by faith and now we are to walk from this new heart in Christ.
As we have received Him - so we walk in Him. Col. 2:6. It is all by grace through faith in what Christ has already done.
Personally I am vehemently against all forms of sinning as they all bring destruction of some sort to us while on this earth - especially the one of unbelief in Christ's finished work on the cross.
I don't see any difference in sinning by living a homosexual lifestyle to having malice, bitterness, having outbursts of anger, being deceitful, being jealous and envious and the slandering of others in the body of Christ. All of these, as well as all the works of the flesh bring about death to us in this life. They are contrary to the life off Christ in us now.
Here is my view on sin and it's affects on us and on how the Holy Spirit transforms us as we behold the glory ( goodness ) of our Lord as in a mirror. 2 Cor. 3:17-18
Sin changes our perspective on things and causes us to not look at our Father in the right light of who He truly is. ( The same as Adam and Eve did when they hid from Him even though He was still coming to visit with them and He still took care of them )
Sin also affects our ability to have harmonious relationships with others and it also distorts our view of others as well as ourselves. Sin is deceitful.
We chose to live holy lives because we are just being who we truly are in Christ - not to maintain right standing with God. This living good holy lives creates right relationships with people, it will not give our enemy an influence in our lives and it is a good witness to the world.
It reveals the true heart of our loving Father and Lord to show others in this hurt and dying world their love and grace towards them.
Your true identity is not defined by your struggles, mistakes, or sinful actions. These are all confined to the flesh and are the works of the flesh as Paul said. Who you are is defined by your new birth in Christ. You are who you are by His grace and life in you!
Behavioral issues are usually the result of trying to live under the law in some form - such as the false doctrine of "sinless perfection in the flesh".
This "lose your salvation" false doctrine which discourages believers and brings fear and hopelessness to them as they struggle in the flesh with some things.
This causes them to have their faith ship-wrecked because they feel condemned and don't know how to walk by the spirit yet nor are they taught the gospel of the grace of God in Christ properly in order to grow up in Him.
Once you understand you are completely accepted and sin free forever in Jesus in your inner man created in righteousness and holiness - and that this is your permanent state for all eternity in Christ - the behavioral issues will fall off of our lives like dead leaves.
The "sap" of His life in and through us transforms us outwardly by the Holy Spirit as we behold the glory ( goodness ) of the Lord Jesus as in a mirror. We see all the goodness that He has already done for us and we also see ourselves in Him as one spirit with the Lord. 2 Cor. 3:17-18
I maintain that the preaching and teaching of the love and grace of God in the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ brings true righteousness which is His alone and there will be deeds of His life manifested in us if we are fed Christ Himself and His righteousness to us.
He has cleansed our hearts by faith and now we are to walk from this new heart in Christ.
As we have received Him - so we walk in Him. Col. 2:6. It is all by grace through faith in what Christ has already done.
There seems to be a mix of wheat and tares believing this. I'm reminded of the Galatians... there were non believers who were trying to be justified by the flesh and then there were baby believers trying to be sanctified by the flesh. This is a real blow because often the "lost" just get lost in the shuffle. (Ah, my auto correct kept saying shuttle, lol). So sharp discernment is needed.
I believe this doctrine of conditional salvation came from that mother church. It's just one of several teachings that's crept its way into the christian churches, with a slightly different packaging.
Well I love cupcakes, so let's just say the same cupcake but with different decoration. Now I'm hungry
....
"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,that ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholds that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now lets will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth." (2Tim 2:1-13)
Friends I have not followed this thread but be warned it is possible to fall away from the truth by following false doctrines and false teachers (Matt 24:24)
"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingers not, and their damnation slumbers not. For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an example unto those that after should live ungodly." (2Pet 2:1-6)
God's Word tells us that it is possible to fall away from the Faith (truth) through false teachings that lead to ungodliness
God bless you all
Friends I have not followed this thread but be warned it is possible to fall away from the truth by following false doctrines and false teachers (Matt 24:24)
"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingers not, and their damnation slumbers not. For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an example unto those that after should live ungodly." (2Pet 2:1-6)
God's Word tells us that it is possible to fall away from the Faith (truth) through false teachings that lead to ungodliness
God bless you all
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Here is a great teaching that speaks of ship-wrecked faith. I like to use this website from time to time as it gives a grace-based / finished work of Christ view of the scriptures and it has a place at the bottom of the teaching where people can ask questions. I often learn good things in this section as well.
I realize this will not influence those who already believe our loving Father sends His beloved children to hell but hopefully others reading the thread will see the goodness and grace of God for us that is in Christ's perfect work on our behalf.
Shipwrecked Faith
“Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.” (1 Tim 1:18-20)
What does it mean to shipwreck your faith? Paul said this had happened to at least two people so I guess it can happen to you. But how does it happen and what are the consequences?
Most people have no idea but fear the worst: “Shipwrecked faith means you’ve lost your salvation. It means you’re going to hell.”
As we will see in this note, it means no such thing.
What causes faith to become shipwrecked?
Look again at the passage above and note how Paul defines fighting the good fight as “holding on to faith and a good conscience.” These two things are connected. If you reject or cast away a good conscience your faith will be shipwrecked:
Holding fast to faith (that leaning of the entire human personality on God in absolute trust and confidence) and having a good (clear) conscience. By rejecting and thrusting from them [their conscience], some individuals have made shipwreck of their faith. (1 Tim 1:19, AMP)
This is not about ignoring your conscience; it’s about the dangers of thrusting away your good and clear conscience. In other words, if your conscience condemns you, you will have trouble believing what God says is true about you.
Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask… (1 John 3:21-22)
Condemnation is a faith-killer. Condemnation will cause you to be timid before God making it hard for you to receive from the abundance of his grace. If your conscience is constantly telling you that you’re unworthy, you’re a hopeless Christian, and you don’t deserve to be in the kingdom, you will be in danger of shipwrecking your faith.
What is shipwrecked faith?
Paul spent a fair bit of time at sea and he liked nautical metaphors. He described spiritual infants as those “tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching” (Eph 4:14).
If you are not secure in your Father’s love – which you won’t be if your conscience condemns you – you’ll make a wreck of your faith. Like a ship that fails to reach its destination, you’ll fall short of all that God has in store for you.
And no, that doesn’t mean you’ll lose your salvation and go to hell. It means you won’t mature in the faith (Lk 8:14). It means you’ll lose the freedom that is yours in Christ (Gal 5:1), you’ll become unstable (2 Pet 3:17), and you’ll fear punishment that isn’t coming (1 John 4:18).
The New Testament writers list many bad things that can happen when we fail to trust God in our daily lives, but the thing many Christians fear most – Christ writing them off – is the one thing that absolutely cannot happen.
If you are one with the Lord be at peace, for the one who took hold of you will never let you go. If the Holy Spirit dwells in you rest assured he will never leave (John 14:16).
What does it mean to shipwreck your faith? It means moving from the secure foundation of Jesus Christ. It means diluting your faith in God with faith in self, faith in effort, faith in your ability to perform. It’s trying instead of trusting. It’s striving instead of resting.
What Paul never said
“If you shipwreck your faith, you’ll lose your salvation.” Preachers of insecurity love to quote this verse as support for their evil idea that we can undo what we never wrought
– as though we could unfuse the Holy Spirit from our spirits and tear ourselves from God’s mighty grip. Don’t you think if that could actually happen, Paul would’ve mentioned it? Yet he says nothing of the kind.
What Paul does say is that a group of “certain men” had shipwrecked their faith and of that group two men had been handed over to Satan so that they might be taught not to blaspheme. I don’t exactly know what Paul had in mind with this handing over business but note that (a) he did it, not Jesus, (b) he did it with the intention of teaching them, not condemning them.
I know it is common to hear the New Testament preached in such a way to instill fear and insecurity among the children of God. To settle this issue in my own heart, I spent the summer examining nearly 200 scriptures that are used by some for this nefarious purpose. And do you know how many scriptures I found that said those who are saved might yet become unsaved? None. Not one.
In the coming weeks I plan to look at some of the scriptures that have been misused to preach insecurity to the secure, but for now I hope you will agree that there is nothing in 1 Timothy 1 that hints at eternal condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Agreed? Got your boat back in the water? Good. Let’s press on.
Hymenaeus and Alexander
Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme. (1 Tim 1:20)
What do we know about these two guys Paul handed over to Satan? We know they were part of a group of false teachers (i) who were promoting controversies rather than God’s work – which is by faith (v.4) and (ii) they saw themselves as teachers of the law (v.7).
Ask the right questions and you will begin to understand what happened.
– How do we preach law? By telling people they need to work for salvation/sanctification, etc.
– What is the purpose of the law? Its purpose is to condemn us.
– What had happened to these law-teachers? Their consciences became condemned.
– What was the result of their ministry? God’s finished work was not being preached and faith was being shipwrecked.
Here’s the story as I see it. After Paul, the apostle of grace, left Ephesus, false teachers arose from among their own number and began preaching law. They might have been Judaizers with circumcision knives or they might’ve preached the Ten Commandments or they might even have preached the commands of Jesus.
The point is not what sort of law they were preaching, but their improper application of it. Paul said “the law is good if one uses it properly (but) they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm” (vv.7-8).
In any case, the outcome was they were distracting themselves and their hearers from “God’s work – which is by faith” (v.4).
Paul said Hymenaeus and Alexander were blasphemers. To blaspheme is to slander or speak falsely of someone. It’s saying, “The blood of Jesus doesn’t avail for me.” (It does!) It’s saying, “Jesus needs my help.” (He doesn’t!) “The Holy Spirit is convicting me of sin.” (He isn’t!) “God will not finish what he begun.” (He will!) “I can sin my way out of his grace.” (You can’t.)
This sort of teaching promotes controversy and distracts people from trusting in God’s finished work.
Fight the good fight
I hope you understand that when it comes to saving you and making you acceptable to God, Jesus did it all and his perfect work cannot be improved upon. This is the gospel truth and it is worth fighting for! I am not talking about fighting people but demolishing arguments and taking captive every thought that is opposed to Christ. Usually this is a battle waged inside our own minds.
Here, then, is how you fight the good fight.
If your conscience condemns you as a sinner (Christ died for sinners!) or unworthy of grace (grace is for the unworthy!), the remedy is not to try and clean yourself and make yourself acceptable.
That way lies disaster and shipwreck. The only cure for a guilty conscience is the cleansing blood of Jesus (Heb 10:22). So look to Jesus, see the cross and the empty tomb, and believe the good news. Jesus has done it all!
If someone uses the mirror of the law to point out your imperfections, don’t cast off your good conscience but fix your eyes on Jesus and his glorious perfections. You are one with the Lord and as he is so are you in this world (1 Jn 4:17)!
And the next time someone says, “You’re not good enough for God and you need to work to improve yourself,” tell them, “I am one with Christ and he is good enough for God, his work is finished, and in him I have found my eternal rest!”
Here is the link to the article where you can view the questions at the bottom if interested. We have a great salvation in our Lord. We can trust Him to be faithful to us. This knowledge will bring the proper nutrients for us to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
https://escapetoreality.org/2013/01/30/shipwrecked-faith/
I realize this will not influence those who already believe our loving Father sends His beloved children to hell but hopefully others reading the thread will see the goodness and grace of God for us that is in Christ's perfect work on our behalf.
Shipwrecked Faith
“Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.” (1 Tim 1:18-20)
What does it mean to shipwreck your faith? Paul said this had happened to at least two people so I guess it can happen to you. But how does it happen and what are the consequences?
Most people have no idea but fear the worst: “Shipwrecked faith means you’ve lost your salvation. It means you’re going to hell.”
As we will see in this note, it means no such thing.
What causes faith to become shipwrecked?
Look again at the passage above and note how Paul defines fighting the good fight as “holding on to faith and a good conscience.” These two things are connected. If you reject or cast away a good conscience your faith will be shipwrecked:
Holding fast to faith (that leaning of the entire human personality on God in absolute trust and confidence) and having a good (clear) conscience. By rejecting and thrusting from them [their conscience], some individuals have made shipwreck of their faith. (1 Tim 1:19, AMP)
This is not about ignoring your conscience; it’s about the dangers of thrusting away your good and clear conscience. In other words, if your conscience condemns you, you will have trouble believing what God says is true about you.
Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask… (1 John 3:21-22)
Condemnation is a faith-killer. Condemnation will cause you to be timid before God making it hard for you to receive from the abundance of his grace. If your conscience is constantly telling you that you’re unworthy, you’re a hopeless Christian, and you don’t deserve to be in the kingdom, you will be in danger of shipwrecking your faith.
What is shipwrecked faith?
Paul spent a fair bit of time at sea and he liked nautical metaphors. He described spiritual infants as those “tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching” (Eph 4:14).
If you are not secure in your Father’s love – which you won’t be if your conscience condemns you – you’ll make a wreck of your faith. Like a ship that fails to reach its destination, you’ll fall short of all that God has in store for you.
And no, that doesn’t mean you’ll lose your salvation and go to hell. It means you won’t mature in the faith (Lk 8:14). It means you’ll lose the freedom that is yours in Christ (Gal 5:1), you’ll become unstable (2 Pet 3:17), and you’ll fear punishment that isn’t coming (1 John 4:18).
The New Testament writers list many bad things that can happen when we fail to trust God in our daily lives, but the thing many Christians fear most – Christ writing them off – is the one thing that absolutely cannot happen.
If you are one with the Lord be at peace, for the one who took hold of you will never let you go. If the Holy Spirit dwells in you rest assured he will never leave (John 14:16).
What does it mean to shipwreck your faith? It means moving from the secure foundation of Jesus Christ. It means diluting your faith in God with faith in self, faith in effort, faith in your ability to perform. It’s trying instead of trusting. It’s striving instead of resting.
What Paul never said
“If you shipwreck your faith, you’ll lose your salvation.” Preachers of insecurity love to quote this verse as support for their evil idea that we can undo what we never wrought
– as though we could unfuse the Holy Spirit from our spirits and tear ourselves from God’s mighty grip. Don’t you think if that could actually happen, Paul would’ve mentioned it? Yet he says nothing of the kind.
What Paul does say is that a group of “certain men” had shipwrecked their faith and of that group two men had been handed over to Satan so that they might be taught not to blaspheme. I don’t exactly know what Paul had in mind with this handing over business but note that (a) he did it, not Jesus, (b) he did it with the intention of teaching them, not condemning them.
I know it is common to hear the New Testament preached in such a way to instill fear and insecurity among the children of God. To settle this issue in my own heart, I spent the summer examining nearly 200 scriptures that are used by some for this nefarious purpose. And do you know how many scriptures I found that said those who are saved might yet become unsaved? None. Not one.
In the coming weeks I plan to look at some of the scriptures that have been misused to preach insecurity to the secure, but for now I hope you will agree that there is nothing in 1 Timothy 1 that hints at eternal condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Agreed? Got your boat back in the water? Good. Let’s press on.
Hymenaeus and Alexander
Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme. (1 Tim 1:20)
What do we know about these two guys Paul handed over to Satan? We know they were part of a group of false teachers (i) who were promoting controversies rather than God’s work – which is by faith (v.4) and (ii) they saw themselves as teachers of the law (v.7).
Ask the right questions and you will begin to understand what happened.
– How do we preach law? By telling people they need to work for salvation/sanctification, etc.
– What is the purpose of the law? Its purpose is to condemn us.
– What had happened to these law-teachers? Their consciences became condemned.
– What was the result of their ministry? God’s finished work was not being preached and faith was being shipwrecked.
Here’s the story as I see it. After Paul, the apostle of grace, left Ephesus, false teachers arose from among their own number and began preaching law. They might have been Judaizers with circumcision knives or they might’ve preached the Ten Commandments or they might even have preached the commands of Jesus.
The point is not what sort of law they were preaching, but their improper application of it. Paul said “the law is good if one uses it properly (but) they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm” (vv.7-8).
In any case, the outcome was they were distracting themselves and their hearers from “God’s work – which is by faith” (v.4).
Paul said Hymenaeus and Alexander were blasphemers. To blaspheme is to slander or speak falsely of someone. It’s saying, “The blood of Jesus doesn’t avail for me.” (It does!) It’s saying, “Jesus needs my help.” (He doesn’t!) “The Holy Spirit is convicting me of sin.” (He isn’t!) “God will not finish what he begun.” (He will!) “I can sin my way out of his grace.” (You can’t.)
This sort of teaching promotes controversy and distracts people from trusting in God’s finished work.
Fight the good fight
I hope you understand that when it comes to saving you and making you acceptable to God, Jesus did it all and his perfect work cannot be improved upon. This is the gospel truth and it is worth fighting for! I am not talking about fighting people but demolishing arguments and taking captive every thought that is opposed to Christ. Usually this is a battle waged inside our own minds.
Here, then, is how you fight the good fight.
If your conscience condemns you as a sinner (Christ died for sinners!) or unworthy of grace (grace is for the unworthy!), the remedy is not to try and clean yourself and make yourself acceptable.
That way lies disaster and shipwreck. The only cure for a guilty conscience is the cleansing blood of Jesus (Heb 10:22). So look to Jesus, see the cross and the empty tomb, and believe the good news. Jesus has done it all!
If someone uses the mirror of the law to point out your imperfections, don’t cast off your good conscience but fix your eyes on Jesus and his glorious perfections. You are one with the Lord and as he is so are you in this world (1 Jn 4:17)!
And the next time someone says, “You’re not good enough for God and you need to work to improve yourself,” tell them, “I am one with Christ and he is good enough for God, his work is finished, and in him I have found my eternal rest!”
Here is the link to the article where you can view the questions at the bottom if interested. We have a great salvation in our Lord. We can trust Him to be faithful to us. This knowledge will bring the proper nutrients for us to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
https://escapetoreality.org/2013/01/30/shipwrecked-faith/
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“If you shipwreck your faith, you’ll lose your salvation.” Preachers of insecurity love to quote this verse as support for their evil idea that we can undo what we never wrought
People love propoganda straw men. Preachers ( the enemy ) preach insecurity in the love
Christ.
The whole point of the cross is there is no insecurity in it. It is an eternal message of Gods
dedication to people who repent and believe and follow Him.
But the promise is conditional on repentance, faith, and following.
It is this very conditional aspect which people hate, loath, detest, deny, condemn, call evil.
The odd thing is is you have to change the sentences and their context to create the meaning
they want the gospel to have, and it denys the very promise it offers.
So why would anyone deny repentance, faith and following?
Because they sin knowingly, and deny victory, and want to give people hope that God still
accepts them even when in total rebellion against Him. Literally all the promises are based
on active faith, an active walk and an active transformation into a child of God.
What is the point if God takes reprobate sinners, who desire to sin and continue sinning with
no repentance, while condemns others in this state to hell, because at some point in the past
they expressed a desire to follow Jesus. You may as well just declare universalism, and all are
accepted, they will just be won over later.
Why universalism? Because people of this school often believe all sin has already been forgiven,
like a ticket has been bought for the holiday whether you want it or not. But this is driven only
by missreading some verses, and makes no sense or justice in the real world.
But this is what cognitive dissonance does to you, when you want something so bad, you are
willing to change the belief system so you need to do nothing more than you already are.
People love propoganda straw men. Preachers ( the enemy ) preach insecurity in the love
Christ.
The whole point of the cross is there is no insecurity in it. It is an eternal message of Gods
dedication to people who repent and believe and follow Him.
But the promise is conditional on repentance, faith, and following.
It is this very conditional aspect which people hate, loath, detest, deny, condemn, call evil.
The odd thing is is you have to change the sentences and their context to create the meaning
they want the gospel to have, and it denys the very promise it offers.
So why would anyone deny repentance, faith and following?
Because they sin knowingly, and deny victory, and want to give people hope that God still
accepts them even when in total rebellion against Him. Literally all the promises are based
on active faith, an active walk and an active transformation into a child of God.
What is the point if God takes reprobate sinners, who desire to sin and continue sinning with
no repentance, while condemns others in this state to hell, because at some point in the past
they expressed a desire to follow Jesus. You may as well just declare universalism, and all are
accepted, they will just be won over later.
Why universalism? Because people of this school often believe all sin has already been forgiven,
like a ticket has been bought for the holiday whether you want it or not. But this is driven only
by missreading some verses, and makes no sense or justice in the real world.
But this is what cognitive dissonance does to you, when you want something so bad, you are
willing to change the belief system so you need to do nothing more than you already are.
The forgiveness of sins is the gospel message. All sins except for the sin of unbelief in Christ's sacrifice is done away with at the cross. Behold the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world. This truth "conflicts" with our church teachings but its time to be preaching the true gospel so that people can be truly free.
Forgiveness is a done deal - either believe it or don't believe it.
On the subject of forgiveness that we have in Christ now because of His precious Blood...here is what the scriptures say.....sometimes the truth in the gospel of the grace of Christ "conflicts" with what we have been religiously taught.
1 John 2:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name's sake.
have been forgiven = perfect passive
perfect = The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed past action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present time. It is continuously happening in the present.
passive = voice = action is happening to you....you are not doing it
Without a doubt this verse says that the sins are forgiven from a past action that remains in a continuous completed state and that was put on them....not something they did.
Ephesians 1:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
We have redemption = present continuous action...so this means we have present continuous forgiveness of our sins...
and look...that grace stuff shows up again!...it's all according to the riches of our loving Father's grace that He has given to us in Christ our Lord.
Colossians 1:13-14 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Same thing here too...present continuous action = forgiveness of sins
Redemption!..we have been bought with the precious Blood of Jesus... Let's honor His work.
Brethren ...we have a great salvation in our Lord!
Walk in the knowledge of your forgiveness in Christ and in that security we will experience maturity.
Forgiveness is a done deal - either believe it or don't believe it.
On the subject of forgiveness that we have in Christ now because of His precious Blood...here is what the scriptures say.....sometimes the truth in the gospel of the grace of Christ "conflicts" with what we have been religiously taught.
1 John 2:12 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name's sake.
have been forgiven = perfect passive
perfect = The perfect tense in Greek is used to describe a completed past action which produced results which are still in effect all the way up to the present time. It is continuously happening in the present.
passive = voice = action is happening to you....you are not doing it
Without a doubt this verse says that the sins are forgiven from a past action that remains in a continuous completed state and that was put on them....not something they did.
Ephesians 1:7 (KJV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
We have redemption = present continuous action...so this means we have present continuous forgiveness of our sins...
and look...that grace stuff shows up again!...it's all according to the riches of our loving Father's grace that He has given to us in Christ our Lord.
Colossians 1:13-14 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Same thing here too...present continuous action = forgiveness of sins
Redemption!..we have been bought with the precious Blood of Jesus... Let's honor His work.
Brethren ...we have a great salvation in our Lord!
Walk in the knowledge of your forgiveness in Christ and in that security we will experience maturity.
I love it when I get to preach the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. In "it - the gospel of Christ Himself" is the power for salvation and true transformation by the Spirit of God.
Knowing that we are completely forgiven because of Christ's sacrifice makes us want to run to the Father for grace to walk free of sinning because we know that they are forgiven.
That does not make us want to go out and sin all we want as the carnal/religious mind thinks and accuses others of wanting to do.
It does the complete opposite. Jesus said "He who is forgiven much - loves much." It wants us to grow in the grace and knowledge of God and this is pleasing to Him. We have a new nature now.
We are a new creation in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.
Living by the flesh does not stop making us a new creation in Christ. It makes us deceived by sin and distorts our view of the Lord's love and grace towards us , others and ourselves and will bring some sort of destruction/death in this life on earth.
Take up shooting heroin in our arms and the reality of this truth will be evident quickly.
As we learn to walk by the spirit instead of the flesh - then we experience God's kind of life in our lives.
I have found the very same thing happening in my life. The more I see Christ and what He has done - and the more I agree with His work ( confess - means to say the same thing ) - the more He becomes manifested in my life and the things of the flesh just have fallen off like dead leaves on a branch.
Transformation is really the emerging new man that is in Christ being manifested in our bodies while we are here on this earth.
This transformation of what already is in us in Christ in our new creation ( It is not called a "new evolution" ) can be seen by man as our minds get renewed to the truth of Christ's work for us and in us. Rom. 12:2
We are simply "being" who we already are when we "put on Christ".
The new man in Christ is like the invisible man - when he put clothes on, people could then see him. We put on Christ and people see the new man in Christ manifested and God gets glorified.
This all happens by grace through faith in what Christ has already done and we participate in it with Him for it is God who is at work in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure. He will be faithful to us. Phil. 2:13
We are transformed by the Holy Spirit as we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror. 2 Cor. 3:17-18 What do you see when you look into a mirror? We are joined as one spirit with the Lord. 1 Cor. 6:17
It's in knowing our "union" with the Lord as one and in "communing" with the Lord because of this union where the real Christian life is lived and it all starts knowing that Jesus has taken away the sin of the world and that "in Him" we have redemption - the forgiveness of sins.
Knowing that we are completely forgiven because of Christ's sacrifice makes us want to run to the Father for grace to walk free of sinning because we know that they are forgiven.
That does not make us want to go out and sin all we want as the carnal/religious mind thinks and accuses others of wanting to do.
It does the complete opposite. Jesus said "He who is forgiven much - loves much." It wants us to grow in the grace and knowledge of God and this is pleasing to Him. We have a new nature now.
We are a new creation in Christ - created in righteousness and holiness.
Living by the flesh does not stop making us a new creation in Christ. It makes us deceived by sin and distorts our view of the Lord's love and grace towards us , others and ourselves and will bring some sort of destruction/death in this life on earth.
Take up shooting heroin in our arms and the reality of this truth will be evident quickly.
As we learn to walk by the spirit instead of the flesh - then we experience God's kind of life in our lives.
I have found the very same thing happening in my life. The more I see Christ and what He has done - and the more I agree with His work ( confess - means to say the same thing ) - the more He becomes manifested in my life and the things of the flesh just have fallen off like dead leaves on a branch.
Transformation is really the emerging new man that is in Christ being manifested in our bodies while we are here on this earth.
This transformation of what already is in us in Christ in our new creation ( It is not called a "new evolution" ) can be seen by man as our minds get renewed to the truth of Christ's work for us and in us. Rom. 12:2
We are simply "being" who we already are when we "put on Christ".
The new man in Christ is like the invisible man - when he put clothes on, people could then see him. We put on Christ and people see the new man in Christ manifested and God gets glorified.
This all happens by grace through faith in what Christ has already done and we participate in it with Him for it is God who is at work in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure. He will be faithful to us. Phil. 2:13
We are transformed by the Holy Spirit as we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror. 2 Cor. 3:17-18 What do you see when you look into a mirror? We are joined as one spirit with the Lord. 1 Cor. 6:17
It's in knowing our "union" with the Lord as one and in "communing" with the Lord because of this union where the real Christian life is lived and it all starts knowing that Jesus has taken away the sin of the world and that "in Him" we have redemption - the forgiveness of sins.
The gospel
The problem in the world is "evil desires" from the heart that defile or destroy people.
And the remedy is repentance, admitting these desires are evil and lead to sin, rebellious
and destructive behaviour against God and other people, and even ourselves.
We need to then commit to do that which is right founded on love.
Confession, we need to outwardly confess our commitment and rejection of sin.
Christ. We need to approach God and accept Christ is the attoning sacrifice for our sins
through the cross, and ask Him to forgive us.
We then need to listen and learn from Jesus and follow in obedience.
Now upon this foundation we can build. Amen. (Matt 7)
The problem in the world is "evil desires" from the heart that defile or destroy people.
And the remedy is repentance, admitting these desires are evil and lead to sin, rebellious
and destructive behaviour against God and other people, and even ourselves.
We need to then commit to do that which is right founded on love.
Confession, we need to outwardly confess our commitment and rejection of sin.
Christ. We need to approach God and accept Christ is the attoning sacrifice for our sins
through the cross, and ask Him to forgive us.
We then need to listen and learn from Jesus and follow in obedience.
Now upon this foundation we can build. Amen. (Matt 7)