King James Bible ONLY? Or NOT?

[graceNpeace]

If it weren't for the word "church" in Acts 7:38 how would we know that the the church of Jesus Christ existed in the assembly of Israel in the wilderness?

Acts 7:38 KJV
This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

The word rendered church in the KJV is the Greek word [FONT=&quot]ἐκκλησίᾳ.

This should not be rendered "church" unless the context is clear.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]ἐκκλησίᾳ[/FONT][FONT=&quot] meaning is "gathering" or "assembly".
It can be used to describe a crowd at a football game or a queue waiting for a bus.

You are trying to impute a meaning, again, onto a word that may not be correct.
I don't that the KJV did a good job here.[/FONT]

 

[KJV1611]

Or... can we say it in the opposite direction that you need a religious bias and be dogmatic to believe that the KJV is perfect?

That is never true my friend. Truth can never be arrived at without unbiased objectivity.

 

[willybob]

Please don't waste your time presenting comparisons of later versions with the KJV; that is faulty reasoning. The KJV is not the standard. If you want your comparison to be valid, you must compare to a source outside of both the KJV and the newer versions. In other words, you must go to the available Greek manuscripts. Printed editions, including the Textus Receptus, don't count.

So I guess this is not for you Dino, but rather for those that have not harden their hearts to obedience to the truth..

The diminishing of Christs Deity and authority

1 Cor. 16-22…Lord Jesus Christ reduced to Lord

KJV
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

Tyndale
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, the same be anathema Maranatha

Lord Jesus Christ is reduced to Lord

NIV
If anyone does not love the Lord, let that person be cursed! Come, Lord!

NLT
If anyone does not love the Lord, that person is cursed. Our Lord, come!

1881-ESV
If anyone has no love for the Lord, let him be accursed. Our Lord, come!

NASB
If anyone does not love the Lord, he is to be accursed. Maranatha.

ISV
If anyone doesn't love the Lord, let him be condemned! May our Lord come!

NET Bible
Let anyone who has no love for the Lord be accursed. Our Lord, come!

New Heart English Bible
If any man does not love the Lord, let him be accursed. Come, Lord.




Acts 19-10
KJV
And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.

Tyndale
And this continued by the space of two years: So that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.

Lord Jesus was diminished to Lord in the post 1880 text.

James Strongs 1901 ASV
And this continued for the space of two years; so that all they that dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks.
NIV

This went on for two years, so that all the Jews and Greeks who lived in the province of Asia heard the word of the Lord.

NLT
This went on for the next two years, so that people throughout the province of Asia--both Jews and Greeks--heard the word of the Lord.

1881-ESV
This continued for two years, so that all the residents of Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks.

The later revised ESV in 1950> English Revised Version
And this continued for the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks.

NASB
This took place for two years, so that all who lived in Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks.

World English Bible
This continued for two years, so that all those who lived in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.


Modern translation omit His name and proper noun (Jesus & Jesus Christ). Why would anyone want to do such devious deeds knowing that the 5400 TR manuscripts verifies Jesus specifically as being the Lord in these verses below? Why take away His name from that title?

Passage	AV1611	Modern Translations
Matthew 4:18	Jesus	OMIT
Matthew 12:25	Jesus	OMIT
Mark 2:15	Jesus	OMIT
Mark 10:52	Jesus	OMIT
Luke 24:36	Jesus	OMIT
Acts 15:11	Christ	OMIT
Acts 16:31	Christ	OMIT
Acts 19:4	Christ	OMIT
Acts 19:10	Lord Jesus	OMIT
1 Corinthians 5:4	Christ	OMIT
1 Corinthians 9:1	Christ	OMIT
1 Corinthians 16:22	Jesus Christ	OMIT
2 Corinthians 4:10	Lord	OMIT
2 Corinthians 5:18	Jesus	OMIT
2 Corinthians 11:31	Christ	OMIT
1 Thessalonians 3:11	Christ	OMIT
2 Thessalonians 1:8	Christ	OMIT
2 Thessalonians 1:12	Christ	OMIT
Hebrews 3:1	Christ	OMIT
1 John 1:7	Christ	OMIT
2 John 1:3	The Lord	OMIT
Revelation 1:9	Christ	OMIT
Revelation 12:17	Christ	OMIT

In the verses below it seems they seek to make Jesus a generic He and some diminish Jesus anointing. I can’t imagine why anyone would want to do this, other than to engage in textual critical myscheif.

Passage	AV1611	Modern Translations
Matthew 4:18	Jesus	He*
Matthew 12:25	Jesus	He
Mark 2:15	Jesus	He
Mark 10:52	Jesus	He
Luke 24:36	Jesus	He
Acts 15:11	Lord Jesus Christ	Lord Jesus
Acts 16:31	Lord Jesus Christ	Lord Jesus
Acts 19:4	Christ Jesus	Jesus
Acts 19:10	the Lord Jesus	the Lord
1 Corinthians 5:4	Lord Jesus Christ	Lord Jesus
1 Corinthians 9:1	Jesus Christ	Jesus
1 Corinthians 16:22	The Lord Jesus Christ	the Lord
2 Corinthians 4:10	Lord Jesus	Jesus
2 Corinthians 5:18	Jesus Christ	Christ
2 Corinthians 11:31	Lord Jesus Christ	Lord Jesus
1 Thessalonians 3:11	our Lord Jesus Christ	Jesus our Lord
2 Thessalonians 1:8	Lord Jesus Christ	Lord Jesus
2 Thessalonians 1:12	Lord Jesus Christ	Lord Jesus
Hebrews 3:1	Christ Jesus	Jesus
1 John 1:7	Jesus Christ	Jesus
2 John 1:3	The Lord Jesus Christ	Jesus Christ
Revelation 1:9	Jesus Christ	Jesus
Revelation 12:17	Jesus Christ	Jesus

To be continued

 

[KJV1611]

it simply the congregated remnant of believers through a steadfast faith proven by deeds from heart purity, spiritual Israel, "all Israel" God's purified people, by faith and not by flesh, Zech. 13-9.......

I'm not sure what you mean by the "congregated remnant of believers"? Is this a subset of the assembly in the wilderness?

 

[KJV1611]

The KJV was taken from the proper text, and is a most excellent translation, except for 2 books, of the which are post 200AD apocrypha writings to my knowledge and should be omitted. The translators themselves said it was not a better translation, nor a perfect translation, (that was from the horse’s mouth)..

I've never heard about the two apocryphal books in the bible, which ones are they?

 

[graceNpeace]

So I guess this is not for you Dino, but rather for those that have not harden their hearts to obedience to the truth..

The diminishing of Christs Deity and authority

1 Cor. 16-22…Lord Jesus Christ reduced to Lord

KJV
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha.

Tyndale
If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, the same be anathema Maranatha

Lord Jesus Christ is reduced to Lord

NIV
If anyone does not love the Lord, let that person be cursed! Come, Lord!

NLT
If anyone does not love the Lord, that person is cursed. Our Lord, come!

1881-ESV
If anyone has no love for the Lord, let him be accursed. Our Lord, come!

NASB
If anyone does not love the Lord, he is to be accursed. Maranatha.

ISV
If anyone doesn't love the Lord, let him be condemned! May our Lord come!

NET Bible
Let anyone who has no love for the Lord be accursed. Our Lord, come!

New Heart English Bible
If any man does not love the Lord, let him be accursed. Come, Lord.




Acts 19-10
KJV
And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.

Tyndale
And this continued by the space of two years: So that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.

Lord Jesus was diminished to Lord in the post 1880 text.

James Strongs 1901 ASV
And this continued for the space of two years; so that all they that dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks.
NIV

This went on for two years, so that all the Jews and Greeks who lived in the province of Asia heard the word of the Lord.

NLT
This went on for the next two years, so that people throughout the province of Asia--both Jews and Greeks--heard the word of the Lord.

1881-ESV
This continued for two years, so that all the residents of Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks.

The later revised ESV in 1950> English Revised Version
And this continued for the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks.

NASB
This took place for two years, so that all who lived in Asia heard the word of the Lord, both Jews and Greeks.

World English Bible
This continued for two years, so that all those who lived in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.


Modern translation omit His name and proper noun (Jesus & Jesus Christ). Why would anyone want to do such devious deeds knowing that the 5400 TR manuscripts verifies Jesus specifically as being the Lord in these verses below? Why take away His name from that title?

Passage	AV1611	Modern Translations
Matthew 4:18	Jesus	OMIT
Matthew 12:25	Jesus	OMIT
Mark 2:15	Jesus	OMIT
Mark 10:52	Jesus	OMIT
Luke 24:36	Jesus	OMIT
Acts 15:11	Christ	OMIT
Acts 16:31	Christ	OMIT
Acts 19:4	Christ	OMIT
Acts 19:10	Lord Jesus	OMIT
1 Corinthians 5:4	Christ	OMIT
1 Corinthians 9:1	Christ	OMIT
1 Corinthians 16:22	Jesus Christ	OMIT
2 Corinthians 4:10	Lord	OMIT
2 Corinthians 5:18	Jesus	OMIT
2 Corinthians 11:31	Christ	OMIT
1 Thessalonians 3:11	Christ	OMIT
2 Thessalonians 1:8	Christ	OMIT
2 Thessalonians 1:12	Christ	OMIT
Hebrews 3:1	Christ	OMIT
1 John 1:7	Christ	OMIT
2 John 1:3	The Lord	OMIT
Revelation 1:9	Christ	OMIT
Revelation 12:17	Christ	OMIT

In the verses below it seems they seek to make Jesus a generic He and some diminish Jesus anointing. I can’t imagine why anyone would want to do this, other than to engage in textual critical myscheif.

Passage	AV1611	Modern Translations
Matthew 4:18	Jesus	He*
Matthew 12:25	Jesus	He
Mark 2:15	Jesus	He
Mark 10:52	Jesus	He
Luke 24:36	Jesus	He
Acts 15:11	Lord Jesus Christ	Lord Jesus
Acts 16:31	Lord Jesus Christ	Lord Jesus
Acts 19:4	Christ Jesus	Jesus
Acts 19:10	the Lord Jesus	the Lord
1 Corinthians 5:4	Lord Jesus Christ	Lord Jesus
1 Corinthians 9:1	Jesus Christ	Jesus
1 Corinthians 16:22	The Lord Jesus Christ	the Lord
2 Corinthians 4:10	Lord Jesus	Jesus
2 Corinthians 5:18	Jesus Christ	Christ
2 Corinthians 11:31	Lord Jesus Christ	Lord Jesus
1 Thessalonians 3:11	our Lord Jesus Christ	Jesus our Lord
2 Thessalonians 1:8	Lord Jesus Christ	Lord Jesus
2 Thessalonians 1:12	Lord Jesus Christ	Lord Jesus
Hebrews 3:1	Christ Jesus	Jesus
1 John 1:7	Jesus Christ	Jesus
2 John 1:3	The Lord Jesus Christ	Jesus Christ
Revelation 1:9	Jesus Christ	Jesus
Revelation 12:17	Jesus Christ	Jesus

To be continued

I only looked up one example, Matt 4:18.
While the subject of the sentence is known to be Jesus, by context, the word Jesus in the Greek is never used to describe who is doing the walking (the participle [FONT=&quot]Περιπατῶν[/FONT]) in Matt 4:18.

No doubt you will find this scandalous but it does not change the MEANING of the text in the slightest.
I am not going to bore everyone by going through the whole list.

 

[posthuman]

I only looked up one example, Matt 4:18.
While the subject of the sentence is known to be Jesus, by context, the word Jesus in the Greek is never used to describe who is doing the walking (the participle Περιπατῶν) in Matt 4:18.

No doubt you will find this scandalous but it does not change the MEANING of the text in the slightest.
I am not going to bore everyone by going through the whole list.

in addition to the Matthew 4:18 example not actually including the name Jesus in the original Greek text, that "modern translations omit the name Jesus" from this verse is a blatant lie.

NIV, NASB, NLT, ISV, Berean Study Bible versions ((and others)) all use the name Jesus in this verse, even though the apostle Matthew himself did not.

 

[KJV1611]

The word rendered church in the KJV is the Greek word ἐκκλησίᾳ.

This should not be rendered "church" unless the context is clear.
ἐκκλησίᾳ meaning is "gathering" or "assembly".
It can be used to describe a crowd at a football game or a queue waiting for a bus.

You are trying to impute a meaning, again, onto a word that may not be correct.
I don't that the KJV did a good job here.

I'm not trying to impute meaning lol I'm just believing the words exactly as written in the KJV. Christ was not in the assembly in the wilderness and we know this for a fact because most of that congregation died in the wilderness because of UNBELIEF. Only two in that congregation were allowed by God to enter into the promised land.

If the congregation was the entire group of people, what should the 2 originals that God allowed to enter the promised land be called? By the way, this is one heck of a shadow story about our second birth that I hope we will eventualy get to.

 

[posthuman]

I'm not trying to impute meaning lol I'm just believing the words exactly as written in the KJV

do you believe the KJV more than you believe what the apostle Matthew himself wrote?

that's the case in Matthew 4:18

 

[KJV1611]

do you believe the KJV more than you believe what the apostle Matthew himself wrote?

that's the case in Matthew 4:18

I'm not following you, what's wrong with Matthew 4:18 in the KJV?

Edit: I see now, I was comparing NASB to KJV and didn't see a difference... NIV is different using"he". Is NASB wrong also?

[h=1]Matthew 4:18New American Standard Bible (NASB)[/h][h=3]The First Disciples[/h][FONT=&quot]18 Now as Jesus was walking by the Sea of Galilee, He saw two brothers,Simon who was called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen.[/FONT]

 

[posthuman]

pah

arguments over words. the scripture ((in every translation, 2 Timothy 2:14)) says avoid such and warn each other over it.

i am not going to check - but isn't it a safe bet that in almost 70 pages no one has been led to Christ by arguing over the deity of the KJV?

has Christ even been praised in this thread at all?

like i said, not even going to check. stomach not feeling that great today.

consider this a warning =|

 

[posthuman]

I'm not following you, what's wrong with Matthew 4:18 in the KJV?

the name Jesus is not in the text. but KJV inserts it there. Matthew did not write it there.

so which is inspired -- KJV or Matthew?

don't worry, it's totally spurious dispute ((just read Matt. 4:17 if for some ridiculous reason you are confused about who is walking up the beach calling disciples)) -- the meaning is totally unchanged.

but the point: KJV is obviously not literal here, not faithful to the text, inserting a word, in this case the most glorious name, where the scripture in its original language does not have that word.

so if KJV is right here about the inclusion of the name, Matthew was wrong.

is that something you're ready to make up your mind about, or something you're going to make excuses for & dodge completely in your reply?

 

[Zi]

If anything it should be encouraged to be strong in resolution to stick with what one believes to be the most consistent Bible.. Idk understand what the problem is

 

[KJV1611]

pah

arguments over words. the scripture ((in every translation, 2 Timothy 2:14)) says avoid such and warn each other over it.

i am not going to check - but isn't it a safe bet that in almost 70 pages no one has been led to Christ by arguing over the deity of the KJV?

has Christ even been praised in this thread at all?

like i said, not even going to check. stomach not feeling that great today.

consider this a warning =|

Go get some rest and get to feeling better!

 

[KJV1611]

If anything it should be encouraged to be strong in resolution to stick with what one believes to be the most consistent Bible.. Idk understand what the problem is

I say let the Lord lead each and ever one of us wherever he wants us to be. God will always lead us to the truth if we ask him.

 

[Zi]

The big picture of all of our journey has yet to be seen.. it's quite something when folks talk as they do on here.. pride is ugly.. God bless you Sir, you hold yourself well in all this mess.

I say let the Lord lead each and ever one of us wherever he wants us to be. God will always lead us to the truth if we ask him.

 

[slave]

If it weren't for the word "church" in Acts 7:38 how would we know that the the church of Jesus Christ existed in the assembly of Israel in the wilderness?

Acts 7:38 KJV
This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

[h=1](Acts 7:38): ...New American Standard Bible (NASB)[/h]38 This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness together with the angel who was speaking to him on Mount Sinai, and who was with our fathers; and he received living oracles to pass on to you.

What is the church? It is the body of believers. Yes, today it is also a building of gatherings, but this passage is simply saying the body of Christ is there. Or, as NASB puts it accurately a - congregation. Which is a group of people regularly attending a particular place of worship. Its not lost in translations, it's agreed upon!

 

[KJV1611]

(Acts 7:38): ...New American Standard Bible (NASB)

38 This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness together with the angel who was speaking to him on Mount Sinai, and who was with our fathers; and he received living oracles to pass on to you.

What is the church? It is the body of believers. Yes, today it is also a building of gatherings, but this passage is simply saying the body of Christ is there. Or, as NASB puts it accurately a - congregation. Which is a group of people regularly attending a particular place of worship. Its not lost in translations, it's agreed upon!

Most of the original congregation died in the wilderness because of UNBELIEF. What do you call the members of the congregation, the true believers, that the spirit of Christ dwelt in? According to the book of Acts in the KJV they were called the church... what do you call them?

 

[willybob]

not only are these new age text not the best, but I am going to bring forth evidence that proves they are not the oldest either.....

 

[slave]

I will agree from my studies that when it comes to (numerical issues); not historical chronologically per say, but literal numerical considerations - the KJV is one I see as accurate, more so than some. But this is not a campaign in me to say others are not worthy of their notice at all. There are advantages to cross-referencing not only Scripture itself, but other translations and even paraphrases if they are within the context of the Deity of Christ etc..which can simply give ground for the Spirit to make mention in areas of life.

To me this is the mature view of things and doesn't clog my spiritual arteries in any legalism standards man would apply to me is all. You have been gracious in saying we all must make our own choices, and I applaud that gentleness and respect for others, and I would agree, that we all will work out our own salvation, as Scripture mentions, with the Spirit of God guiding and therefore our minds discerning and thinking wisely about it.