An Introduction to the Doctrines of Grace: Limited Atonement

[notuptome]

No, that's not true.

We chose to submit because we are led to it.

What irony you were Arminian until you got saved then became a Calvinist.

We didn't know about the predestination until afterwards...

We didn't know salvation occurred because of the leading of the Lord Jesus Christ and not our awesome choices and strength until after we were saved.

Got to love it.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Of course it wouldn't be beneath you to suggest Calvinists are lost. But that is more a commentary upon your person than upon Calvinists.

You love to accuse the brethren. I'm just asking how you got saved. I think I have reasoned out the answer from a previous post.

Perhaps you will figure it out soon as well.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

There's a lie. Do you do this often?



And the above is way over the top and shows you as out of control and literally slandering, which is of course the second lie of your post.

You do not merit a reply as the meanness of your post is obvious.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

God chose Israel over Egypt. That was favoritism.

God chose Jacob over Esau.

God chose Isaac over Ishmael.

Not sure why you don't think God shows favoritism.

I guess you already know that the Atonement can't be because of merit.

All because Adam chose Eve.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[preacher4truth]

You love to accuse the brethren. I'm just asking how you got saved.

For the cause of
Roger

I accused the brethren? Exactly where? All I did was call you on your nonsense of calling Calvinists lost.

Sorry, but you didn't ask how I got saved, you accused Calvinists in general as not being saved. Your post wasn't directed toward me, it was a slanderous post to malign Calvinists.

So, that being said you weren't asking how I got saved, that is just one more lie from you. That you continue to slander and not own your own actions is not a surprise.

Here is your post again. Any honest believer can see your implications:

No more so than the irony of John Calvin and the misuse of his observations.

Tell me do Calvinists have a John 16:8 experience?

For the cause of Roger

But that is just how you behave, you call others lost then try to deny it later and attempt to twist your former words into something other than your true intentions. Seems to be a practice (ποιέω) of yours.

It is apparent you believe Calvinists are lost. Be man enough to own it and what you stated as well instead of wincing when called on it.

 

[preacher4truth]

You do not merit a reply as the meanness of your post is obvious.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Your post was filled with false accusations, and I am not the only person who called you on it. Your post was slanderous, mean spirited and of course a lie.

If you think meanness is calling out one who lies then you have lot's of problems besides your bearing false witness.

 

[Johnny_B]

Here's a couple

John 1:29 the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world

John 4:42 the Christ the Savoir of the world

John 6:51 if any man eat of this bread he shall live forever

2 Cor 5:19 reconciling the world unto Himself

1 John 2:2 and not for ours only but the sins of the whole world

1 John 4:4 sent to be Savior of the world

Of course to the Calvinist the world is not the world.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Roger here is what you are missing in you understand of limited atonement. Yes Christ's sacrifice is able to take away every sin in the world, His death was sufficient for the world. To answer your question or statement on world not meaning world that is non-sense and anyone that tries to say it does not mean world is fooling themselves, if indeed the context is to mean all the world as a whole.

For example John 18:19-20 "The high priest then questioned Jesus about his disciples and his teaching.20 Jesus answered him, “I have spoken openly to the world. I have always taught in synagogues and in the temple, where all Jews come together. I have said nothing in secret." In this context does world mean the entire world? No it does not. Does, all mean every Jew came and heard what Jesus said? No, it mean that all practicing Jew go to the synagogues. So in it's context world does not mean entire world and all does not mean everyone. Unless you can show us how these apply to the entire world and every Jew?

Notice John 3:16, yes God showed His love for the world (everyone) by sending His only Son to die, also notice that His death's benefits only apply to those that believe or can you show that it applies to every living being in all of time making them all saved?

Roger this is to you as well as everyone that claims that limited atonement is a false doctrine. What does atonement mean? John 18:19-20 is also open to everyone that believes limited atonement is a false doctrine, to show how the context of John 18:19-20 means the whole world and every Jew in Jesus day.

 

[Johnny_B]

All because Adam chose Eve.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Did Adam really chose Eve or did God chose Eve for Adam, what were his other choices?

 

[SovereignGrace]

There is a hge difference in saying God died for ONLY sins of the limited atoned people. and saying he just died for all sins of unbelief. You could rightly say it proves limited atonement, But not the way your intending it when you are discussing it

Limited atonement means a certain group of people have no chance to be saved, period. God di dnot die for them, That is just not true.

God died for all sin, but unbelief, the people earned their condemnation. the people saved, God earned their right to be called children of God by his work. The formoer group WILLINGLY rejected that offer of forgiveness.

Jesus, in His own words, said He laid His life down for the sheep. Is everybody a sheep? No. Paul, under the Spirit's inspiration, said that the Christ died for the church, which I tend to use body of believers, as the Greek word ekklesia is used. Is everybody in the body of believers? No.

 

[Calmador]

If He literally takes away everybody's sins, then everybody is saved.



Yet God's wrath is over the disobedience.[John 3:36]


Then everybody w/o exception is saved.


Only believers do this.


Those He is reconciling don't have their sins accounted to them.


Study propitiation. If God has been propitiated for everybody's sins, then His wrath has been appeased. If God's wrath has been appeased for everybody w/o exception, then He has no wrath to mete out on the day of Judgment.


Then everybody w/o exception is saved.



Nope. Just yall's definition of the word 'world'.

All of this is distortion.

It's clear God has set the salvation up in such a way for the world to potentially be saved. Just like in other scriptures... sinners must come and accept God's salvation plan. The whole world can be saved.. God has the door open for the world to potentially be saved. Mankind just needs to accept God's salvation plan.

You and calvinists in general interpret God's salvation as if God will force mankind if he says he'd save the world... but, the truth is when these scriptures are read, they clearly show an invitation.

 

[SovereignGrace]

That is why it robs God and His Christ of their glory. You reduce the great spectacle of Christ dying for sinners to little more than theatre and not a great unfathomable act of love.

Nope. You guys are the ones who try to rob God of His glory. God can't save you until you give Him consent. Who's in the driver's seat? God or man? In that scenario man is. God can make everything we see ex nihilo, can stop the sun from moving, but he can't overcome that pesky free will man allegedly possesses.

Love, adoration and exultation stems from a heart that yields willingly not from a heart that is compelled by overwhelming force.

The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?[Jeremiah 17:9]

[SUP] [/SUP]I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh.[Ezekiel 11:19]

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.[Ezekiel 36:26]

The heart we give to God is a new, undivided heart that He supernaturally implanted within us via regeneration. Our hearts, in our fallen condition, was as cold and as hard as a stone. That's the heart that willing yields to Him.

Gods wrath is so fierce because Gods love is so great. God loves every soul to the fullest extent.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You're forgetting God's immutability. There's 7 things that God hates and that includes those who lie and sow discord.

 

[SovereignGrace]

All of this is distortion.

It's clear God has set the salvation up in such a way for the world to potentially be saved. Just like in other scriptures... sinners must come and accept God's salvation plan. The whole world can be saved.. God has the door open for the world to potentially be saved. Mankind just needs to accept God's salvation plan.

You and calvinists in general interpret God's salvation as if God will force mankind if he says he'd save the world... but, the truth is when these scriptures are read, they clearly show an invitation.

What about those who died never hearing about the Christ?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Did Adam really chose Eve or did God chose Eve for Adam, what were his other choices?

An ape......

Then we'd all looked like Esau.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Your post was filled with false accusations, and I am not the only person who called you on it. Your post was slanderous, mean spirited and of course a lie.

If you think meanness is calling out one who lies then you have lot's of problems besides your bearing false witness.

You did not merit a post but you got one from him anyways.

 

[SovereignGrace]

All because Adam chose Eve.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

That's quite the stretch, Armstrong. Nowhere, and I mean nowhere, will this ideology of yours hold up to the scrutiny of the bible. God put Adam in a deep sleep and took a rib from him and made him a help-mate.

The lengths ppl will go to twist the scriptures to fit their ideologies breaks my heart.

 

[Johnny_B]

An ape......

Then we'd all looked like Esau.

A red haired man or should I say hairy man.

I wonder how Saul felt on the road to Damascus if he exercised his free will or did Jesus intrude on his life.

 

[Johnny_B]

That's quite the stretch, Armstrong. Nowhere, and I mean nowhere, will this ideology of yours hold up to the scrutiny of the bible. God put Adam in a deep sleep and took a rib from him and made him a help-mate.

The lengths ppl will go to twist the scriptures to fit their ideologies breaks my heart.

Just like He took Abram out from his father's country Joshua 24:2 And Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘Long ago, your fathers lived beyond the Euphrates, Terah, the father of Abraham and of Nahor; and they served other gods.

This knocks out the idea of our faith saves you, Abram was serving other God, he had no faith in the God of the universe. Yet the Lord took him out from his father's land.

 

[Johnny_B]

2 Peter 3:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

Matthew 23:37 (NASB)
[SUP]37 [/SUP] "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

Jesus said "How often He wanted to...but they would not."

Everyone will have a choice to either receive or not the work of Christ. We beg them - be reconciled to God because on God's side - He sees you as already reconciled by Christ's work. This is our true ministry.

2 Corinthians 5:18-20 (NASB)
[SUP]18 [/SUP] Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,

[SUP]19 [/SUP] namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

[SUP]20 [/SUP] Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

Romans 10:12-13 (NASB)
[SUP]12 [/SUP] For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him;

[SUP]13 [/SUP] for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."


The Lord Jesus Christ is the "Elect" and those that receive Him become one spirit with Him become the elect. 1 Cor. 6:17

If we become the elect when we are in Christ, then why did Jesus call us His sheep in John 10:11, 15, how did the Father raise us with Him Ephesians 2:6, how are we elect in Him before the foundations of the world Ephesians 1:4, if we had not yet believed?

As for the word "whosoever/whoever" I believe there is always a Scripture to define what it is talking about. Acts 2:39 "For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself." Whosoever/whoever are called to the Lord, that is why they believe, no where does it say, whosoever choses to believe, you are reading into the Scripture. If there is one I'd love to see it because I by no means know every Scripture in the Bible. I used to believe what you believe, it is what Barth taught and is promoted in the book "Elect in the Son" by Robert Shank. I really wish I would of kept all those books that I read, so I could reference them in discussions like this.

Peter was talking to Jews, this is why he said this so they would understand that it is for whosoever, not Jews only.

 

[SovereignGrace]

All of this is distortion.

Yeah! Riiiiiiiiiiiiight!!!!

It's clear God has set the salvation up in such a way for the world to potentially be saved.

There's no potentially to this. Jesus is the Guarantor of a better covenant.[Hebrews 7:22] Jesus said all that My Father gives to me WILL come to Me. It is set in stone. He draws, they come. Period. End of discussion.

Just like in other scriptures... sinners must come and accept God's salvation plan.

There's a problem here, a clear disconnect to this you posted. There are NONE who seek God, there are NONE who understand. It is only those drawn by the Father in an effectual manner than come to Him.

The whole world can be saved.

The bible avers something way different than this.

God has the door open for the world to potentially be saved.

You have reduced salvation down to nothing more than something that's potential, nothing concrete.

Mankind just needs to accept God's salvation plan.

And unless they are drawn to the Father they will reject that plan. Man's not that good. His heart is at variance with God. That's why a supernatural heart transplant must take place first.

You and calvinists in general interpret God's salvation as if God will force mankind if he says he'd save the world... but, the truth is when these scriptures are read, they clearly show an invitation.

No. I and the Calvinists start with God in the plan of salvation, whereas you and your ilk start with man. YUGE difference mon ami.

 

[SovereignGrace]

All because Adam chose Eve.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

And this post right here shows me you're not a student of the bible. I am sure you read and study, but you're no student to make such a ridiculous claim.

It's like the word 'world'. You and the others say that 'world' means 'everybody w/o exception'. We'll, let's put this to the test of the bible.

Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.[Romans 12:1,2]

Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.[James 1:27]

So, if the word 'world' means 'everybody w/o exception', then in that context, we are to be conformed to pattern of 'everybody w/o exception', which would also include believers, seeing they are living in the world.

So again, if the word 'world' means 'everybody w/o exception', then we are to keep ourselves unpolluted by 'everybody w/o exception', this means we have to withdraw from other believers, seeing they are also living in the world, and by doing this, we violate Hebrews 10:25.


Y'alls hermeneutics are way off kilter.

World can mean the entire earth.
World can refer to all the lost.
World can refer to the non-Jewish ppl and land.
The elect only.[John 3:17]
The non-elect only.[John 17:9]