"EIS" OR "DIA" OR "HOTI" ??

DJ2 · Jun 16, 2017

Having faith that Jesus is Lord no more offers remission of sins then a man deeply believing he is a woman makes him female.

There is more then enough proof to show that being water baptized into Christ is commanded, required and needed. Not optional, suggested or recommended. It is for the remission of sins not as a show to others of your faith.

Those who believe such nonsense will find themselves on Judgement day without their wedding garments, crying out "but I thought it was just a suggestion!!"

plaintalk · Jun 16, 2017

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3: 16) (John 3: 15, 36; 5: 24; 6: 40,47; 11: 25; 20: 31; 1 Tim. 1: 16; 1 John 5: 13; Rev. 2: 10) There are several passages that indicate that those who believe shall inherit eternal life, John 3: 16 is perhaps the most prominent. Since many claim that salvation is by grace through faith alone, to be honest with ourselves, we must ask the question, “Do we receive eternal life by faith alone or are other factors besides faith, involved in the reception of life?” Several Scriptures are given below to help us answer that question.
Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. (James 1: 12)
And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” [SUP]26 [/SUP]And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?” [SUP]27 [/SUP]And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” [SUP]28 [/SUP]And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this and you will live.” [SUP]25 [/SUP]And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, (Luke 10: 25- 28)
When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.” (Acts 11: 18)

And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life. (Matt. 19: 29)
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. (John 10: 27, 28)

To those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; (Rom 2: 7)

Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. (Rom 6: 4

We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. (1 John 3: 14)

These verses have been cited to help us see that other factors are involved in receiving the gift of eternal life. The claim that we receive life by faith alone is a religious fiction; we receive life through faith along with hope and love; our faith works with the works of faith which God has appointed to perfect or complete our faith. We receive salvation and life through a perfected faith, one that is loving and obedient
God bless.

Grace777x70 · Jun 16, 2017

Water baptism is NOT where people are regenerated ( born-again) and receive "remission of sins" as is falsely taught by some religions.

Here we see the NT pattern with Peter. We hear, we believe, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit where we are baptized into the body of Christ..then we get water baptized as a representation of what happened when we believed in Christ.

But the regeneration and receiving the remission of sins comes first.

Acts 10:43-48 (NASB)
[SUP]43 [/SUP] "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."

[SUP]44 [/SUP] While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message.

[SUP]45 [/SUP] All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

[SUP]46 [/SUP] For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,

[SUP]47 [/SUP] "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?"

[SUP]48 [/SUP] And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.

Paul shows the process as well in Ephesians.

Ephesians 1:13 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, Magenta likes this.

Grace777x70 · Jun 16, 2017

If water baptism is needed in order obtain the remission of sins and to have regeneration happen as is falsely taught by some.

When did the disciples get water baptized after Christ died on the cross and then was resurrected? They would still need to have been water baptized after Christ's death and resurrection before they could be regenerated and to receive the remission of sins according to the water regeneration theory.

Even if they were water baptized by John - this still doesn't negate the need to be water baptized AFTER Christ rose from the dead as the "water baptism regenerationists believe" - in order to have remission of sins and to be regenerated. John's baptism was different from Christ's baptism that He gives to the believers.

When Peter said to the whole group of Jews in Acts 2:38...repent and be baptized.....there must have been many of them there that were already baptized by John because it seems that only the Pharisees/Sadducees and scribes didn't get water baptized by John. So, that throws a whole other wrench into the mix here.

There are so many holes in this false teaching about needing to be water baptized in order to receive remission of sins and the regeneration for the Holy Spirit.

This completely violates all the clear, multiple scriptures to believe on Christ to be saved. Look at Acts 10:43-48 - clearly they were saved first and had already received the Holy Spirit - which is being born-again by the Spirit and being baptized into the body of Christ...then they were water baptized.

Grace777x70 · Jun 16, 2017

Some people see the word "baptized" and all they can think about is water. Being baptized has been used as a representation in scripture and obviously it speaks of what happened to believers in Christ when they believed.

Acts 10:43-48 clearly shows that people get water baptized after receiving the Holy Spirit when they were baptized into the body of Christ when they believed after hearing the gospel of the grace of Christ. Eph. 1:13 shows this truth too.

Here is an example of baptize being used in relation to Moses as a representative of something else besides water.

1 Corinthians 10:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

In their religion of "no one is regenerated or receives the remission of sins" until they get water baptized. This means that if someone dies before they get water baptized - they have no regeneration nor have received the remission of sins - which means they go to hell.

This doctrine is so anti-Christ and anti-the gospel that I can hardly believe any Christian could even think it. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ's work...period!

In saying this - we encourage all believers to get water baptized as it is a representation of us having died on the cross with Jesus - we too were buried and rose again to newness of life. We are a new creation in Him.

DJ2 · Jun 16, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

Water baptism is the baptism of Christians today. Baptisms such as the supernatural baptisms of Jesus, Acts 10 and those in the upper room do not apply to us today. There are no voices coming down from heaven, speaking in other tongues or flames appearing over our heads. I have seen hundreds of baptisms and they all looked the same, a simple pledge of a clear conscience to God before immersion into water. (1st Peter 3:21)

We will all be the same on the day of judgement, naked and guilty. No appeals to our baptism, faith, repentance or good works. Jesus will simply know His sheep for they are the ones who follow Him.

"To the Jews who had believed in Him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teachings, you are really my disciples." John 8:31

Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teachings. My Father will love them, and We will come to them and make Our home with them. (John 14:23)

So to those who believe acts of obedience are not required, beware,

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved" was not written as filler.

Peter was not "encouraging" all believers to be baptized, he was commanding it.

DJ2 · Jun 16, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

Holes??

You accept a theology based on faith alone. A theology in which the only time those two words are put together are actually teaching the exact opposite. (James 2:24)

A theology that implies all bibles are off base and that "eis" really means "because of".

After all these and other debates and you say we have holes?

A theology that goes against the very words of the Great Commission.

A theology that twists even the simplest of verses into something that does not even come close to its real intent.

We have holes?

graceNpeace · Jun 16, 2017

DJ2 said:

Frankly, this entire thread has been for the purpose of erecting a huge straw man!!!

There are many Scriptures dealing with the significance of water baptism in the New Testament.
To try and make an entire argument (and theology) on the possible meaning of one preposition in one verse is disingenuous at best.
No important doctrine in Christianity is based on a single verse or passage!
Not one!

Exegesis, BY ITS VERY NATURE, means that a single verse or passage MUST BE INTERPRETED IN THE LIGHT OF OTHER VERSES DEALING WITH THE SAME OR SIMILAR SUBJECT MATTER.
The reason we know Peter is NOT advocating baptismal regeneration, is not because of the meaning of one preposition (in this case it is NOT unambiguous), but because other Scripture makes it clear that getting dunked in water does NOT regenerate one.
In that context it then becomes clear that repentance is the primary player, and water baptism is the secondary evidence and public declaration of, the former!

(Oh, just to clarify - I understand Koine myself and have followed the arguments put forward in detail and with much interest.)

To try and make out that Peter is teaching baptismal regeneration in this passage is false, AND, to try and imply that the Bible is then inconsistent because of other teachings that do not support baptismal regeneration, is also false!

I fully support water baptism - for a believer.
Water baptism though is nothing more that a public declaration of an inner belief.
Can it have spiritual benefits for a believer - you betcha!

There are many individuals who have gone to glory WITHOUT WATER BAPTISM.
I have witnessed to many people on their deathbeds and brought them to a saving knowledge in Jesus Christ.
None of them was ever water baptised - several were dead within a few hours of accepting Jesus Christ.
Any suggestion that were not saved, simply because they died prior to receiving water baptism is deserving of utter contempt!
I believe they all would gladly have accepted water baptism, if their health would have allowed it....

So lets just burn the straw-man and get back to normal transmission!

Grace777x70 · Jun 16, 2017

graceNpeace said:

Frankly, this entire thread has been for the purpose of erecting a huge straw man!!!

There are many Scriptures dealing with the significance of water baptism in the New Testament.
To try and make an entire argument (and theology) on the possible meaning of one preposition in one verse is disingenuous at best.
No important doctrine in Christianity is based on a single verse or passage!
Not one!

Exegesis, BY ITS VERY NATURE, means that a single verse or passage MUST BE INTERPRETED IN THE LIGHT OF OTHER VERSES DEALING WITH THE SAME OR SIMILAR SUBJECT MATTER.
The reason we know Peter is NOT advocating baptismal regeneration, is not because of the meaning of one preposition (in this case it is NOT unambiguous), but because other Scripture makes it clear that getting dunked in water does NOT regenerate one.
In that context it then becomes clear that repentance is the primary player, and water baptism is the secondary evidence and public declaration of, the former!

(Oh, just to clarify - I understand Koine myself and have followed the arguments put forward in detail and with much interest.)

To try and make out that Peter is teaching baptismal regeneration in this passage is false, AND, to try and imply that the Bible is then inconsistent because of other teachings that do not support baptismal regeneration, is also false!

I fully support water baptism - for a believer.
Water baptism though is nothing more that a public declaration of an inner belief.
Can it have spiritual benefits for a believer - you betcha!

There are many individuals who have gone to glory WITHOUT WATER BAPTISM.
I have witnessed to many people on their deathbeds and brought them to a saving knowledge in Jesus Christ.
None of them was ever water baptised - several were dead within a few hours of accepting Jesus Christ.
Any suggestion that were not saved, simply because they died prior to receiving water baptism is deserving of utter contempt!
I believe they all would gladly have accepted water baptism, if their health would have allowed it....

So lets just burn the straw-man and get back to normal transmission!

Well said. We encourage all true believers to get water baptized. It's a great blessing from the Lord for us to do. Jesus alone is our Savior.

Having said the above by graceNpeace......this is what is the outcome.....

[video=youtube;-_kwXNVCaxY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_kwXNVCaxY[/video]

mailmandan · Jun 17, 2017

DJ2 said:

Christians continue to get water baptized today AFTER they believe the gospel and receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17; 15:8,9; Ephesians 1:13). 1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free--and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Supernatural baptisms of Jesus? In Matthew 3:11, we read - "As for me, I baptize you with water "for" (in regards to/on the basis of) repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." Receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit in Acts 10 absolutely applies to us today, but you are forced to butcher Acts 10 and 11 in order to try and force it to accommodate your flawed church doctrine and biased interpretation of Acts 2:38.

*Acts 11:16 - Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, 'John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 If therefore God gave them the same gift (Holy Spirit) as He gave us when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, (Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved..) who was I that I could withstand God?" 18 When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, "Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life." This applies to ALL.

And why would there be? Jesus is no longer here on earth getting water baptized. He has risen! Speaking in tongues and flames appearing over heads had it's specific purpose in Acts 2 and does not need to be duplicated today. Speaking in tongues in Acts 10 had it's specific purpose by demonstrating to the Jews that God had accepted the Gentiles into the body of Christ along with them. There is no need for that to happen every time someone believes the gospel and receives the gift of the Holy Spirit today.

1 Peter 3:21 - Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

*Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.

ONLY genuine believers follow Jesus. Those who seek salvation by works (unbelievers) do not follow Jesus.

*Notice in John 8:31, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin (verse 34); indifferent to Jesus’ words (verse. 37); children of the devil (verse. 44); liars (verse 55); and guilty of setting out to stone the one they have professed to believe in (verse 59). We can see that their "belief" fell short of genuine belief resulting in salvation. *If we continue in His word, then we demonstrate that we are TRULY His disciples (John 8:31). Those who fail to continue in His word demonstrate that they are NOT TRULY His disciples.

After Jesus’ teaching in John 6:48-58. we read in 6:60 that "many of his disciples said this was a difficult saying and who can understand it?" These are the very so called "disciples" who Jesus says "do not believe" (John 6:64). They also walked with Him no more. They did not continue demonstrating that they were NOT TRULY His disciples.

Yes, this is descriptive of genuine believers. We must not confuse "descriptive" passages of Scripture with "prescriptive" passages of Scripture.

Required for what? Acts of obedience/good works which follow saving faith in Christ are not prerequisites for salvation. They follow having been saved through faith. We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10). Those who trust in their "so called" acts of obedience/good works to save them instead of trusting in CHRIST ALONE for salvation, beware! You can see how it will turn out at the judgment for these many people in Matthew 7:22-23.

..but he who does not believe will be condemned. It's the lack of belief that causes condemnation and not the lack of baptism. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Peter commanded these Gentiles to be water baptized AFTER they had already believed in Him and received the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:43-47). So water baptism was not considered an optional extra here by Peter; it was a command that these Gentiles were expected to obey. However, it was not obedience to this command in Acts 10:48 that saved them, but their believing in Him (Christ) to receive remission of sins (Acts 10:43).

mailmandan · Jun 17, 2017

DJ2 said:

Having faith in Jesus is more than merely believing that He is the Lord. Even the demons believe that. We are saved when we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. It's not faith in Christ and faith in works, but faith in Christ ALONE. Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me. Not faith in Christ plus something else.

We are Spirit baptized into the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13) and not water baptized into the body of Christ, just as the Israelites were not water baptized into the body of Moses (1 Corinthians 10:2). Believers are water baptized for "in regards to/on the basis of" the remission of sins that we receive through repentance/faith and not in order to obtain the remission of sins, just as baptism is for "in regards to/on the basis of" repentance and not in order to obtain repentance in Matthew 3:11 (NASB).

I didn't hear the thief on the cross crying out that he had no wedding garment because he was unable to get water baptized before he died the same day of his conversion. I did not hear Jesus condemn him either. *The thief on the cross was saved because of his faith in Jesus, just as we are. Water/works-salvationists who have not placed their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation (whether they have been water baptism or not) will find themselves on Judgment day without their wedding garments, crying out, "Lord, Lord, did we not get water baptized, attend the right church and do many wonderful works?!" Oh that sounds so familiar.

We are saved through faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone (Ephesians 2:8,9). Not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that "remains alone" (barren of works - James 2:14). The word "alone" in regards to salvation through faith "in Christ alone" conveys the message that Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony.*

*Works-salvationists are unable to grasp this truth because they are spiritually discerned.

Keep in mind that James is discussing the proof of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

plaintalk · Jun 17, 2017

The necessity of baptism in water for all mankind has been well established:
(1) Jesus instructed His disciples to make disciples of all the nations (that would include everyone) by baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son and Spirit and teaching them to observe all things commanded Is it necessary to be a disciple?
(2) Jesus instructed His disciples to preach the gospel to all creation (that would include everyone) “He was believed and has been baptized shall be saved.” It is necessary to believe and obey (baptism) to be saved. The gospel is—Jesus died for our sins, was buried and arose the third day. (1 Cor. 15: 1-4) We must not only believe the gospel but we must obey. Those who do not, await eternal destruction. (2 Thess. 1: 8, 9)
(3) Jesus said that repentance in His name should be preached to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Repentance is identified with baptism in that John the Baptist preached a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. (Mark 1: 4) All are commanded to repent. (Acts 17: 30, 31)
(3) Approximately ten days later, at Jerusalem, Peter commanded 3,000 believers to, “Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” The Holy Spirit was received after baptism in water. The promise was to the Jews and their children, to those afar off (Gentiles) and to everyone that God shall call to Himself (everyone).
(4) Those that received the word were baptized. (Acts 2: 41)
(5) These were called “believers” after they had believed and obeyed the word. (Acts 2: 44)

To ignore or diminish this teaching is to ignore the counsel of God.
God bless.

mailmandan · Jun 18, 2017

plaintalk said:

The necessity of repentance/faith for all mankind has been well established (Luke 3:3; Acts 3:19; 10:43; 16:31). Jesus clearly said in John 3:18 that whoever believes in Him is not condemned and whoever does not believe is condemned already.. *Yet NOWHERE does the Bible say that whoever is NOT water baptized will NOT be saved.

We have a command by Jesus in Matthew 28:19-20 to make disciples of all nations, and baptize converts. However, it does not say here that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation. The same command also includes the clause "teaching them to observe all things" that Christ has commanded them. If we are to assume that baptism is essential to salvation, then by consistent interpretation of the context, we should say that absolute obedience to all of Christ's commands is also necessary for salvation, yet man is saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). The order is make disciples, baptize them, teach them to observe all that Christ has commanded them. We get water baptized and observe all that Christ has commanded BECAUSE we have previously chosen to become a disciple of Christ and not in order to become a disciple of Christ.

The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16). We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned." If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Again, we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16; 10:16). Those who do not obey the gospel by refusing to believe the gospel await eternal destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:8, 9).

Repentance is signified in baptism, but not procured. Luke 7:29 - When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they justified God/acknowledged God's justice, (signified by) having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, (signified by) not having been baptized by John.

In Mark 1:4, was this baptism of repentance for "in order to obtain" the forgiveness of sins or was it for "in regards to/on the basis of" the forgiveness of sins received upon repentance? *Be careful. John's baptism took place BEFORE Pentecost and I've heard people in the church of Christ claim that water baptism was not necessary for salvation BEFORE Pentecost (in a desperate attempt to get around the thief on the cross receiving salvation through faith apart from water baptism) then claim that water baptism is necessary for salvation AFTER Pentecost.

In Matthew 3:11, we read - I baptize you with water "for" repentance.. *Was this baptism for "in order to obtain" repentance? OR was this baptism for "in regards to/on the basis of" repentance? Getting water baptized in order to obtain repentance makes no sense at all. Repentance precedes water baptism.

The gift of the Holy Spirit was received BEFORE baptism in water in Acts 10:43-47. hmm.. So why would the Jews not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit until after baptism in water? Makes no sense. Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9 are not in harmony with your biased interpretation of Acts 2:38.

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*So the only logical conclusion *when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture* is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

The Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE baptism in water (Acts 10:43-47). You would have an argument on your hands with dispensationalists who would beg to differ that those afar off applied to Gentiles. They would argue: Verse 39, For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. The "you" is obviously Jews and the "your children" must be Jews, but what about "all that are afar off?" Peter quoted the Old Testament all through Acts 2 and he did again. Daniel 9:7a "O Lord, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us confusion of faces, as at this day; to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that are far off..." Those "afar off" are Jews too. The entire setting of Acts 2 is Jewish.

Those who received his word (through repentance/faith) were afterwards baptized.

You don't baptize unbelievers in order to make them believers, but BECAUSE they are believers. In Acts 11:17, we see that these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ BEFORE they received water baptism (Acts 10:43-47). It was already established they were BELIEVERS, prior to receiving water baptism.

To ignore or diminish the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) and instead pervert the gospel of Christ by teaching "water baptized or condemned" is to ignore the counsel of God.

plaintalk · Jun 19, 2017

Mailmandan:
(1) There is a command to preach the gospel to all creation. (Mark 16: 15) The primary points of the gospel are—Christ died for our sins—He was buried—He arose on the third day. (1 Cor. 15: 1- 4)
(2) We must believe the gospel to be saved. (Mark 16: 16; Rom 1: 16, 17)
(3) We must obey the gospel or receive eternal destruction. (2 Thess. 1: 8, 9)
(4) We must believe the gospel and be baptized to be saved. (Mark 16: 16) Baptism is obedience to the gospel. (Rom. 6: 3-7) When we are baptized into Christ, we are baptized into His death, the old self is crucified with Him. When we are baptized, we are buried with Him. (v. 4) In order that as Christ was raised from the dead we might share in the likeness of His resurrection. (2 Thess. 1: 8, 9) to a new life. (v.5)
(5) If we do not obey the gospel, by being baptized, we await eternal destruction.

This tells us that if we are not baptized in water, we will not be saved; IMO your statement about not being baptized is gobbledygook. Only those who do the will of the Father can enter the kingdom. (Matt. 7: 21) It is incongruous to say we believe and not do His will. Being a disciple includes observing all things He has commanded. The first requirement of discipleship is to deny ourselves and receive the gift of faith. God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud. The second requirement of discipleship is to take up our cross. When Jesus took up His cross, it was to die. We die to the old self when we are baptized in the name of Christ. The third requirement of discipleship is to follow Him. (Matt. 16: 24)
God bless.

plaintalk · Jun 19, 2017

The measure of compliance of the works of faith:
Sometimes the comments are absolutely amazing. Under the law the measure of acceptable compliance was faultless performance, one had to keep the whole law and keep it without fault. Thank God, Christ has delivered us from the curse of the Law.

Works of faith have a completely different measure of compliance:
(1) The works of faith are based on faith in God and in His promises; whereas works of the Law and works of righteousness are based on faith in ourselves and our ability to perform. (Luke 18: 9) Arguing against or seeking to diminish a command of God is a sure indication of faith in self and your understanding.
(2) Works of faith are motivated by love for God. (John 14: 15) We love because He first loves us. Works of the Law are usually motivated by fear of punishment. Works of righteousness are usually motivated by self-aggrandizement.
(3) Works of faith rest upon hope derived from the resurrection of Christ. This hope gives perseverance and continuance in observing all the things commanded by God.
(4) Our faith works with our works of faith to perfect our faith; we are saved by a perfected faith (James 2: 22- 24), a loving obedient faith. (Gal. 5: 6; Heb. 5: 9; Rom. 5: 1) Works of the Law and righteousness are about self- approval.

Since God alone knows the heart of man, it behooves us to use great care.
God bless

graceNpeace · Jun 19, 2017

plaintalk said:

Mailmandan:
(1) There is a command to preach the gospel to all creation. (Mark 16: 15) The primary points of the gospel are—Christ died for our sins—He was buried—He arose on the third day. (1 Cor. 15: 1- 4)
(2) We must believe the gospel to be saved. (Mark 16: 16; Rom 1: 16, 17)
(3) We must obey the gospel or receive eternal destruction. (2 Thess. 1: 8, 9)
(4) We must believe the gospel and be baptized to be saved. (Mark 16: 16) Baptism is obedience to the gospel. (Rom. 6: 3-7) When we are baptized into Christ, we are baptized into His death, the old self is crucified with Him. When we are baptized, we are buried with Him. (v. 4) In order that as Christ was raised from the dead we might share in the likeness of His resurrection. (2 Thess. 1: 8, 9) to a new life. (v.5)
(5) If we do not obey the gospel, by being baptized, we await eternal destruction.

This tells us that if we are not baptized in water, we will not be saved; IMO your statement about not being baptized is gobbledygook. Only those who do the will of the Father can enter the kingdom. (Matt. 7: 21) It is incongruous to say we believe and not do His will. Being a disciple includes observing all things He has commanded. The first requirement of discipleship is to deny ourselves and receive the gift of faith. God gives grace to the humble but resists the proud. The second requirement of discipleship is to take up our cross. When Jesus took up His cross, it was to die. We die to the old self when we are baptized in the name of Christ. The third requirement of discipleship is to follow Him. (Matt. 16: 24)
God bless.

So, according to this silly logic, there is no point in preaching the Gospel to those who are on their deathbeds, because even if that individual does accept Jesus as their Lord and Saviour, the very fact that they cannot be baptized (because they are dying), means that what they have done is completely pointless and they die in their sins....

DJ2 · Jun 19, 2017

graceNpeace said:

GraceNpeace - This is your straw-man.

"To try and make a entire argument (and theology) on the possible meaning of one verse is disingenuous at best. No important doctrine in Christianity is based on a single verse or passage! Not one!"

False, no one is using this line of reasoning. Your "one verse" straw-man is clearly an attempt to divert the debate away from the OP. No one is in anyway doing what you are suggesting. There are many verses that show baptism as a command for salvation. Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, 1st Peter 3:21, 1st Corinthians 12:13, Acts 10:48, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Mark 16:16, Mark 1:45, Acts 8:36-38, Ephesians 4:4-6, Romans 6:1-8 and on and on. We may disagree about there meaning but the notion of a theology based on one verse is bogus.

Every conversion after the ascension of Christ has baptism in it. Every one.

It is even a central part of the Great Commission.

While those who wail against it, present a faith alone gospel based on not even a single scripture.

Yes there is a straw-man, it is one of your own making.

I am sure none of your comrades will point this out, so I will. Your "witnessing" many individuals who have gone to glory without water baptism is not evidence in any form. Your attempt at presenting such anecdotal remarks as evidence is deserving of utter contempt.

graceNpeace · Jun 19, 2017

DJ2 said:

Please tell me what happened to those individuals who accepted Jesus Christ on their deathbeds....

DJ2 · Jun 19, 2017

graceNpeace said:

That is between them and God, the same as the rest of us. Unlike you, I will not judge.

graceNpeace · Jun 19, 2017

DJ2 said:

Correct me if I am wrong, if I have got this wrong just tell me:

Your OP and the response to my post gives me the overwhelming impression that your theology is baptismal regeneration - in other words without water baptism there is no salvation...

"EIS" OR "DIA" OR "HOTI" ??

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