Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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dc - Let me put an idea to you. Let us suppose in Christ you can walk righteously, fulfill
the law, find love flowing from your heart to all those you meet and have a deep relationship
with God. I am not saying whether anyone has fulfilled this or not, but just saying imagine
this was possible.
Then go through scripture and realise though many failed to meet Gods requirements at first
when they started to interact with Him and realise His nature, they found a place of communion.
Then you look at Paul who tried to find this place through the law but failed, but found righteousness
through his relationship with christ. Then you look at the language of Paul and the apostles and they
assume they not only found themselves fulfilling the law but love flowed from them to others.
And suddenly the scriptures open, about staying undefiled, avoiding temptation, living a pure, clean
life. Yes Christ accepts repentant sinners who have much to learn, but he expects us to follow and
learn.
So what I think of as a possibility, becomes a reality.
Scripture is so open ended you can weave many strands of belief through it, which history shows
people do. What interests me is the spiritual reality of finding righteousness in our hearts.
The cross and its victory is the resurrection from dead, remaking of us with new bodies.
Our hope is at this time we are pure, cleansed, remade, whole, complete in Christ.
Which part are you willing to loose, or is all of it lost if just one part has failed?
the law, find love flowing from your heart to all those you meet and have a deep relationship
with God. I am not saying whether anyone has fulfilled this or not, but just saying imagine
this was possible.
Then go through scripture and realise though many failed to meet Gods requirements at first
when they started to interact with Him and realise His nature, they found a place of communion.
Then you look at Paul who tried to find this place through the law but failed, but found righteousness
through his relationship with christ. Then you look at the language of Paul and the apostles and they
assume they not only found themselves fulfilling the law but love flowed from them to others.
And suddenly the scriptures open, about staying undefiled, avoiding temptation, living a pure, clean
life. Yes Christ accepts repentant sinners who have much to learn, but he expects us to follow and
learn.
So what I think of as a possibility, becomes a reality.
Scripture is so open ended you can weave many strands of belief through it, which history shows
people do. What interests me is the spiritual reality of finding righteousness in our hearts.
The cross and its victory is the resurrection from dead, remaking of us with new bodies.
Our hope is at this time we are pure, cleansed, remade, whole, complete in Christ.
Which part are you willing to loose, or is all of it lost if just one part has failed?
dc - Empathy. I wish you could have this simple reality. It is your legalistic mindset which
rejects that which is love and Christ in this world.
The problem with man is a lack of love and communion with God. You want a legalistic taking
away of sin debt exterior to your heart, and then just accepting you are now redeemed.
This works if there does not have to be any reality in your heart just the hope something may
have happened. The problem comes when you find nothing has changed, it is just religion.
rejects that which is love and Christ in this world.
The problem with man is a lack of love and communion with God. You want a legalistic taking
away of sin debt exterior to your heart, and then just accepting you are now redeemed.
This works if there does not have to be any reality in your heart just the hope something may
have happened. The problem comes when you find nothing has changed, it is just religion.
Here is the point.
The cross is infinity, it has no end. It echoes Gods heart and commitment to us.
But we need to respond for it to work in us and for us.
Interestingly people say they do not choose salvation, but if they do not choose it they
will be judged and doomed to hell. So a strange contradiction is created, you do not choose
Christ, but you are judged for rejecting Him.
So the criticism of saying choice is involved or responding to the gospel is now wrong to point
out, yet within this same theology choosing is also believed. Now there is a contradiction here
but being honest about it is obviously not high on the agenda. lol.
The cross is infinity, it has no end. It echoes Gods heart and commitment to us.
But we need to respond for it to work in us and for us.
Interestingly people say they do not choose salvation, but if they do not choose it they
will be judged and doomed to hell. So a strange contradiction is created, you do not choose
Christ, but you are judged for rejecting Him.
So the criticism of saying choice is involved or responding to the gospel is now wrong to point
out, yet within this same theology choosing is also believed. Now there is a contradiction here
but being honest about it is obviously not high on the agenda. lol.
This makes a very good point. One can take the opposite of legalism, lawlessness,
but still have a legalistic outlook on what failure is. Legalism does not apply just to
those who apply it to themselves but those who interpret faith through its moral
outlook. Jesus was saying legalistic outlooks fail to grasp love and the heart of God.
Equally lawlessness is not better.
but still have a legalistic outlook on what failure is. Legalism does not apply just to
those who apply it to themselves but those who interpret faith through its moral
outlook. Jesus was saying legalistic outlooks fail to grasp love and the heart of God.
Equally lawlessness is not better.
Anything that we do out of our own will, strength, must do thinking is not of the grace of God. Grace is not only unmerited favor, but the influence of Holy Spirit in our life.
We do out of our Spirit man...and we can't do anything apart from Him. The problem is what are the works that we are to do?
Good works toward others? Even the unsaved can do this.
When He speaks to our spirit within...whether through His Voice, or the rhema Word as we read...then we know His personal will for our life.
The Jews were taught moral law. I think this is what you are alluding to in your posts. The gentiles had no such teachings. But, in their heart...Holy Spirit begins His work.
This is simply what we all are saying. It's His work to start our salvation...it's His work to strengthen and cause growth in our understanding, and it's His work to keep us until the day...day of what? Day of His wrath? Day of our death? Day of whatever...He keeps us.
He finishes what He starts. If left to us? None would be saved.
We do out of our Spirit man...and we can't do anything apart from Him. The problem is what are the works that we are to do?
Good works toward others? Even the unsaved can do this.
When He speaks to our spirit within...whether through His Voice, or the rhema Word as we read...then we know His personal will for our life.
The Jews were taught moral law. I think this is what you are alluding to in your posts. The gentiles had no such teachings. But, in their heart...Holy Spirit begins His work.
This is simply what we all are saying. It's His work to start our salvation...it's His work to strengthen and cause growth in our understanding, and it's His work to keep us until the day...day of what? Day of His wrath? Day of our death? Day of whatever...He keeps us.
He finishes what He starts. If left to us? None would be saved.
E
Legalism is stating that something which is said to be a gift must be earned by some work. it is saying salvation is earned or maintained by some legal set of rules or guidelines,
however, i agree, legalism is no better than lawlessness (or as some put it, licentiousness) . I feel both are based on pride of the person who holds to either gospel.
E
It was hard to come out of this line of thinking.
I used to think the law said do not commit adultery, so as long as I did not do it, I was doing good works. so as long as I looked at the law, and I was not constantly breaking it, I must be doing pretty good and doing alot of Good works.
But that is not what the law was intended to do. nor is it what a true work is. And even an unbeliever can look to the law and appear to be good.. because they do not commit the pet sins.
True works are serving others. Loving as God loved us, Taking the love God gave to us, and sharing it with the world.
I used to think the law said do not commit adultery, so as long as I did not do it, I was doing good works. so as long as I looked at the law, and I was not constantly breaking it, I must be doing pretty good and doing alot of Good works.
But that is not what the law was intended to do. nor is it what a true work is. And even an unbeliever can look to the law and appear to be good.. because they do not commit the pet sins.
True works are serving others. Loving as God loved us, Taking the love God gave to us, and sharing it with the world.
I feel that I must answer this:
SO...
1. God NEVER forsakes us.
2. God does not cast us out.
3. Jesus did not come to condemn the world, but to save it.
4. The Holy Spirit never withdraws.
5. God forgives our sins and then forgets them.
6. God made everyone and therefore everyone is a "child".
7. God can blot out a name from the Book of Life. Exodus 32:31-33
"Then Moses returned to the LORD, and said, "Alas, this people has committed a great sin, and they have made a god of gold for themselves. "But now, if You will, forgive their sin--and if not, please blot me out from Your book which You have written!" The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.”
BTW, Regarding numbers 1 to 6.
GOD will never let go of you.
But YOU can decide to let go of Him.
Do you have free will or not?
SO...
1. God NEVER forsakes us.
2. God does not cast us out.
3. Jesus did not come to condemn the world, but to save it.
4. The Holy Spirit never withdraws.
5. God forgives our sins and then forgets them.
6. God made everyone and therefore everyone is a "child".
7. God can blot out a name from the Book of Life. Exodus 32:31-33
"Then Moses returned to the LORD, and said, "Alas, this people has committed a great sin, and they have made a god of gold for themselves. "But now, if You will, forgive their sin--and if not, please blot me out from Your book which You have written!" The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.”
BTW, Regarding numbers 1 to 6.
GOD will never let go of you.
But YOU can decide to let go of Him.
Do you have free will or not?
BTW,
Number 7 is regarding one who OVERCOMES.
Rev 2:26
Have YOU overcome?
Does one have to overcome, or is one saved eternally, forever, no matter what?
There seems to be a conflict here... Which is it??
Did you read a few verses up?
Rev 2:23b
Jesus will give to each one according to their deeds.
According the their DEEDS, not according to whether or not we JUST believed in Him.
John spent over 3 years with Jesus, why do you think John is speaking about DEEDS (another word for WORKS)
???
Could it be because DEEDS or WORKS are EXPECTED of us, as scripture declares over and over for those who want to see the truth.
Number 7 is regarding one who OVERCOMES.
Rev 2:26
Have YOU overcome?
Does one have to overcome, or is one saved eternally, forever, no matter what?
There seems to be a conflict here... Which is it??
Did you read a few verses up?
Rev 2:23b
Jesus will give to each one according to their deeds.
According the their DEEDS, not according to whether or not we JUST believed in Him.
John spent over 3 years with Jesus, why do you think John is speaking about DEEDS (another word for WORKS)
???
Could it be because DEEDS or WORKS are EXPECTED of us, as scripture declares over and over for those who want to see the truth.
Now if someone hold that they are maintained by faith working through their lives to
bring about righteousness, they are neither legalists or lawless. Faith, or the real
relationship with God, open, emotional, empathetic, loving, shunning evil and delighting
in good, that is where Gods heart is.
Occasionally g7 displays this view and others, but there is a continual desire to stamp
out anything related to legalism or anything talking about rules or precepts.
This makes me wonder. Love, and how we love is based on ideas. You cannot love in
isolation. I could love evil, and that would not be good. I could love to exalt myself,
or I could love to serve, and honour God. As soon as you decide one avenue is not right
while the other is pleasing to the Lord you have created a rule or structure.
So some of this language is not clearly defined. Precepts and rules are part of life, the
govern everything we do. To get from one place to another I have to apply rules, energy,
precepts, take care etc. or nothing happens.
So all anarchistic philosphies or anti-rules based position are actually about a rejection of
a group or experience common to the people and opening up to a different set of groups or
experiences. I have noticed this when Kenneth Copeland opened up to the Pope. It is clearly
about power and allegiance rather than belief or ideas.
Another analogy here on cc, is personalising attacks to individuals rather than the theology or
ideas. This again shows the ideas mean less than identifying with the group.
But God is impartial, and has always been about precepts, rules, boundaries, clean and unclean,
righteous and sinful. Cain and Able, one offered a pleasing sacrifice the other not.
bring about righteousness, they are neither legalists or lawless. Faith, or the real
relationship with God, open, emotional, empathetic, loving, shunning evil and delighting
in good, that is where Gods heart is.
Occasionally g7 displays this view and others, but there is a continual desire to stamp
out anything related to legalism or anything talking about rules or precepts.
This makes me wonder. Love, and how we love is based on ideas. You cannot love in
isolation. I could love evil, and that would not be good. I could love to exalt myself,
or I could love to serve, and honour God. As soon as you decide one avenue is not right
while the other is pleasing to the Lord you have created a rule or structure.
So some of this language is not clearly defined. Precepts and rules are part of life, the
govern everything we do. To get from one place to another I have to apply rules, energy,
precepts, take care etc. or nothing happens.
So all anarchistic philosphies or anti-rules based position are actually about a rejection of
a group or experience common to the people and opening up to a different set of groups or
experiences. I have noticed this when Kenneth Copeland opened up to the Pope. It is clearly
about power and allegiance rather than belief or ideas.
Another analogy here on cc, is personalising attacks to individuals rather than the theology or
ideas. This again shows the ideas mean less than identifying with the group.
But God is impartial, and has always been about precepts, rules, boundaries, clean and unclean,
righteous and sinful. Cain and Able, one offered a pleasing sacrifice the other not.
E
Thus must be responded to also.
Those blotted out are those who ever has sinned against God.. Have you sinned? Then apart from salvation, Your without hope.
So your saying you are stronger than God, and you can pull yourself away from him.
I know kids who are stronger than their parents, who pull and tug and eventually break the grasp of their parents hold. But I did not know that a child of God could be stronger than he is.
Again, How can you claim to have faith in God, yet say you can pull yourself away from God.. Seems you have more faiht in your power than Gods.
Those blotted out are those who ever has sinned against God.. Have you sinned? Then apart from salvation, Your without hope.
So your saying you are stronger than God, and you can pull yourself away from him.
I know kids who are stronger than their parents, who pull and tug and eventually break the grasp of their parents hold. But I did not know that a child of God could be stronger than he is.
Again, How can you claim to have faith in God, yet say you can pull yourself away from God.. Seems you have more faiht in your power than Gods.