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Especially since 'pre-trib' rapture is not biblical. 
( ...talk about false-hope... )
( ...talk about false-hope... )
P
It's not a lack of faith, it's on the basis of what God tells us in The Bible taking ALL scripture into account. You form your opinion on a partial understanding, and do not want to look further because you are happy with the conclusion you have come to.
The trumpets in revelation are the tribulation, the vials are the wrath. Christ returns on the 7th trumpet and then delivers the rapture before the vials are released and the wrath occurs. You will be here for the first 6 trumpets when "bad things happen".
There is a clear distinction between the events of the trumpets (the tribulation) and the events of the vials (the wrath). You seem to believe that ALL all the events are the wrath, when it's clearly stated the wrath comes after the second coming and the trumpets.
◄ Matthew 24:22 ►
New International Version
"If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
"shortened" means we will experience "those days". You seem to believe we will not experience "those days" at all. Why?
The trumpets in revelation are the tribulation, the vials are the wrath. Christ returns on the 7th trumpet and then delivers the rapture before the vials are released and the wrath occurs. You will be here for the first 6 trumpets when "bad things happen".
There is a clear distinction between the events of the trumpets (the tribulation) and the events of the vials (the wrath). You seem to believe that ALL all the events are the wrath, when it's clearly stated the wrath comes after the second coming and the trumpets.
◄ Matthew 24:22 ►
New International Version
"If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
"shortened" means we will experience "those days". You seem to believe we will not experience "those days" at all. Why?
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Another year , another late September rapture date.........don't worry there's always 2018 Seriously though, people need to stop getting other people's hopes up like this...
Seriously though, people need to stop getting other people's hopes up like this...
P
There is a local "church" (cult) that takes large amounts of money from it's members every month I guess to buy rations and prepare shelters for them because they convinced all of them the end is nigh.
For these kinds of "leaders", if they don't instill fear in their members every year their will be social backlash and a cut to their income. And they will successfully keep taking everyone's money because you can draw lines in the stars and point out evil government actions every single year.
I know we are supposed to always be ready and spiritually we shouldn't ever take our time for granted, but to set dates and attempt to save your body is not good.
For these kinds of "leaders", if they don't instill fear in their members every year their will be social backlash and a cut to their income. And they will successfully keep taking everyone's money because you can draw lines in the stars and point out evil government actions every single year.
I know we are supposed to always be ready and spiritually we shouldn't ever take our time for granted, but to set dates and attempt to save your body is not good.
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P
Post-trib rapturers do not suffer the wrath. We "suffer" the tribulation. The tribulation is a cause of a great suffering, the wrath is God's anger for not repenting and obtaining salvation through Christ. There is a distinction between the two, and revelation lays out the events for both in great detail.
◄ Matthew 24:22 ►
New International Version
"If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
"shortened" means we will experience "those days". You seem to believe we will not experience "those days" at all. Why?
The basis of your entire argument is that one verse, and your belief that "Jesus wouldn't do something like that" (make His believers endure the tribulation). If you take all the relevant scriptures into context than you come the conclusion a post-tribulation rapture.
◄ Matthew 24:22 ►
New International Version
"If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
"shortened" means we will experience "those days". You seem to believe we will not experience "those days" at all. Why?
The basis of your entire argument is that one verse, and your belief that "Jesus wouldn't do something like that" (make His believers endure the tribulation). If you take all the relevant scriptures into context than you come the conclusion a post-tribulation rapture.
Persecution (par for the course [1 Thess. 2:15; Rev. 12:13]) and the Great Tribulation (Re 6-18) are not the same thing.
See:
What is the Great Tribulation?
See:
What is the Great Tribulation?
P
Persecution (par for the course [1 Thess. 2:15; Rev. 12:13]) and the Great Tribulation (Re 6-18) are not the same thing.
See:
What is the Great Tribulation?
See:
What is the Great Tribulation?
The second coming is not until the 7th trumpet and the end of the great tribulation.
And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
~ Revelation 14:14
The sickle is for:
And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
~ Revelation 14:16
At that point the wheat will be raptured, and the weeds will be bundled to be burned.
again:
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
~ Mark 13:26
And then shall he send his angels, ...
~ Mark 13:27
... and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
~ Mark 13:27
We can't be raptured until after we see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
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The rapture is the next event on the prophetic calendar.
See:
Revelation Session 01 Introduction Chuck Missler
See:
Revelation Session 01 Introduction Chuck Missler
P
I don't go off of Chuck's calendar, I go off of the timeline of events given in The Bible.
Starting with the abomination:
1.When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, ...
~ Matthew 24:15
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
~ Matthew 24:21
I don't recall this happening, but maybe it is kept under wraps.
2.The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
~ Revelation 8:7
It hasn't rained fire and blood and a third of the world's trees were not burned up, and certainly not ALL the green grass.
3.And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
~ Revelation 8:8-9
A great mountain burning with fire never fell into the seas and turned a third of them red and killed a third of sea life and ships.
4.And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
~ Revelation 8:10-11
A great star has not fallen from heaven and poisoned a third of our waters.
5. And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
~ Revelation 8:12
The lights sources in the sky have not gone a third dark!
6. And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
~ Revelation 9:1-3
Locusts with the power of scorpions have not infested the earth from the bottemless pit
7.And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
~ Revelation 9:13-15
Angels have not slayed a third of humanity
8. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
~ Revelation 11:15
Christ has not returned and it was not announced from Heaven yet.
These events have not occurred that precede the rapture, yet you believe they have and are awaiting rapture.
Starting with the abomination:
1.When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, ...
~ Matthew 24:15
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
~ Matthew 24:21
I don't recall this happening, but maybe it is kept under wraps.
2.The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
~ Revelation 8:7
It hasn't rained fire and blood and a third of the world's trees were not burned up, and certainly not ALL the green grass.
3.And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.
~ Revelation 8:8-9
A great mountain burning with fire never fell into the seas and turned a third of them red and killed a third of sea life and ships.
4.And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
~ Revelation 8:10-11
A great star has not fallen from heaven and poisoned a third of our waters.
5. And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
~ Revelation 8:12
The lights sources in the sky have not gone a third dark!
6. And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
~ Revelation 9:1-3
Locusts with the power of scorpions have not infested the earth from the bottemless pit
7.And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
~ Revelation 9:13-15
Angels have not slayed a third of humanity
8. And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
~ Revelation 11:15
Christ has not returned and it was not announced from Heaven yet.
These events have not occurred that precede the rapture, yet you believe they have and are awaiting rapture.
P
He can deceive you into believing these events have occurred, but he cannot teach me they have happened because they will be obvious and within a short time span of one another and of the abomination standing in the holy place.
Based on what you have told me we are around here on the prophetic calendar:
◄ Matthew 24:11 ►
New Living Translation
And many false prophets will appear and will deceive many people.
Good day pckts,
Just some truths for you to consider:
Christ's return to the earth to end the age takes place at the end of the seven years of tribulation. However, the Lord's appearing to gather the church is a different event, which takes place prior to the tribulation, which is the wrath of God and will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
The teaching that the 7th trumpet is the "last trumpet" spoken of in 1 Cor.15:52, is an erroneous teaching. The trumpets, like the seals and bowls, are all plagues of wrath. There is no blessing associated with them. The only thing that 7th trumpet and the last trumpet have in common is the word trumpet. That said, there are many trumpets, with different purposes throughout scripture.
In addition to this, there is no mention of the church being gathered in or around the 7th trumpet.
There will be a resurrection of the church, which is next, the OT and great tribulation saints, as well as the two witnesses. These are all stages of first resurrection, which is in opposition to the resurrection that takes place after the millennial period. Those who are resurrected there are the unrighteous dead and those who take part in that resurrection the second death has power over.
The verse above is in reference to those who make it through the entire seven years and will see the Lord when he returns to the earth to end the age. The church will return with him riding on white horses and wearing fine linen, white and clean.
The scripture above is not representing the gathering of the church. When the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, He will send out his angels and they will be gathering living people who will have made it through the end of the seven year tribulation. According to the parable of the weeds and wheat in Matt.13, they will first gather the weeds to be brought back to Armageddon (one taken) where they will be killed by that double-edged sword and their bodies will be eaten by the birds (Rev.19:17, 21)
Your claim above goes directly against the following promises for believers:
"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!" - Rom.5:9
" They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath. - 1 Thes.1:10
"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." - 1 Thes.5:9
The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which are the wrath of God, must take place prior to the Lord returning to the earth. Therefore, the church must be gathered prior to the first seal being opened, because believers cannot enter into that time of wrath.
In addition to that, the Lord will carry out his promise to come and take us back to the Father's house (heaven) which must take place prior to God's wrath and the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.
"My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."
Just some truths for you to consider:
Christ's return to the earth to end the age takes place at the end of the seven years of tribulation. However, the Lord's appearing to gather the church is a different event, which takes place prior to the tribulation, which is the wrath of God and will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.
The teaching that the 7th trumpet is the "last trumpet" spoken of in 1 Cor.15:52, is an erroneous teaching. The trumpets, like the seals and bowls, are all plagues of wrath. There is no blessing associated with them. The only thing that 7th trumpet and the last trumpet have in common is the word trumpet. That said, there are many trumpets, with different purposes throughout scripture.
In addition to this, there is no mention of the church being gathered in or around the 7th trumpet.
There will be a resurrection of the church, which is next, the OT and great tribulation saints, as well as the two witnesses. These are all stages of first resurrection, which is in opposition to the resurrection that takes place after the millennial period. Those who are resurrected there are the unrighteous dead and those who take part in that resurrection the second death has power over.
The verse above is in reference to those who make it through the entire seven years and will see the Lord when he returns to the earth to end the age. The church will return with him riding on white horses and wearing fine linen, white and clean.
The scripture above is not representing the gathering of the church. When the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, He will send out his angels and they will be gathering living people who will have made it through the end of the seven year tribulation. According to the parable of the weeds and wheat in Matt.13, they will first gather the weeds to be brought back to Armageddon (one taken) where they will be killed by that double-edged sword and their bodies will be eaten by the birds (Rev.19:17, 21)
Your claim above goes directly against the following promises for believers:
"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!" - Rom.5:9
" They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath. - 1 Thes.1:10
"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." - 1 Thes.5:9
The seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which are the wrath of God, must take place prior to the Lord returning to the earth. Therefore, the church must be gathered prior to the first seal being opened, because believers cannot enter into that time of wrath.
In addition to that, the Lord will carry out his promise to come and take us back to the Father's house (heaven) which must take place prior to God's wrath and the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.
"My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."
P
You make the same error as serpentdove
The events of the tribulation are not the wrath and this is clearly stated:
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
~ Revelation 11:15
... and thy wrath is come ...
~ Revelation 11:18
And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
~ Revelation 15:6-8
Wrath is never used to describe the tribulation or trumpets, and immediately following the second coming and seven trumpets it plainly states the wrath occurs.
Consider this truth and then accept it
The events of the tribulation are not the wrath and this is clearly stated:
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
~ Revelation 11:15
... and thy wrath is come ...
~ Revelation 11:18
And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles. And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever. And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.
~ Revelation 15:6-8
Wrath is never used to describe the tribulation or trumpets, and immediately following the second coming and seven trumpets it plainly states the wrath occurs.
Consider this truth and then accept it