Not By Works

[FranC]

This happens at conversion, because positional righteousness is not personal performance, but a position and gift given at conversion along with salvation....

If by "positional righteousness" you mean that righteousness is not of ourselves but we are imputed God's righteousness through Jesus,then I agree.

And we do receive it at salvation and for as long as we desire to be saved.

I do not believe in OSAS. Sorry. I don't see this in the bible. (as most denominations also do not teach this).

 

[PennEd]

If by "positional righteousness" you mean that righteousness is not of ourselves but we are imputed God's righteousness through Jesus,then I agree.

And we do receive it at salvation and for as long as we desire to be saved.

I do not believe in OSAS. Sorry. I don't see this in the bible. (as most denominations also do not teach this).

Morning Fran. I must say your photo is striking! Very beautiful.

Hey, I keep reading posts like this one from you that say the Bible doesn't teach eternal security. What about the list of 101 verses (there are more) that I gave in posts 13509 & 13510? And why on earth wouldn't you read them? Most importantly, why wouldn't you WANT to believe them?

 

[FranC]

Amen...ole spongebob misses the mark like an archer with curved arrows and no vanes.....his working for sinless perfectionist dogma reeks.....

How did Willybob miss the mark???

Does God put aside sinners for His use? (He may --- but I refer to general discussion)
Or does God use those who are ready, willing and able to serve Him?

I do believe Willybob is SPOT ON.

OR
You could explain why he isn't... (instead of making snide remarks which do not suit you as a Christian man)

 

[blue_ladybug]

.....................

You know I had a dream years ago of demons driving people to work work work. Keeping folks so busy, they never stopped and pray. They never rested or spent time being with God.

I watch some people work work work for money and buy things as if they can find happiness and joy in material possessions but they have maybe an hour to actually enjoy any of it,

Some parents rush rush rush through life from soccer games, to ballet to baseball to band but do they spend one hour just talking and listening to their kids?

Sometimes more activity isn't the answer.

Sometimes God just wants us to rest and spend time with Him. Just enjoy the blessings God has given us. Be content and thankful.

We are talking about the good gifts God gives us. Today, it's that God gives us peace,

The Bible story is when Jesus calmed the storm on the sea of Galilee.

Have you ever had times you totally freak out and cry to God in fear "Save me Lord, don't you care that I am going to drown!" and you hear in your heart "O ye of little faith" before God calms the storm and gives you peace?

Anyway, bedtime.

Hope you have a blessed night and that everyone remembers we have a savior that can calm any storm.

 

[FranC]

Morning Fran. I must say your photo is striking! Very beautiful.

Hey, I keep reading posts like this one from you that say the Bible doesn't teach eternal security. What about the list of 101 verses (there are more) that I gave in posts 13509 & 13510? And why on earth wouldn't you read them? Most importantly, why wouldn't you WANT to believe them?

I FORGOT!!

Will do.
This thread moves too fast for me.
It's lunchtime now...
I live in Italy.

Give me an hour and I'll go through EACH ONE!!
(Unless I faint first !!)

 

[Ariel82]

Peterjens, your straw man again fall short.
.it is neither the one who says it who does that is a Christian.
.those are external things.

It is the one whose heart and mind are changed by walking in the Holy spirit,

That is a work of God and not man,

That is the issue at hand, but again you want to accuse folks of not fighting to overcome sin aabd strive to live godly lives.

Fighting against legalism and licentious doctrines is to fight against man-made religions that do not profit or help overcome sin because folks either try to do it by their own power or earn merit by good works (legalism) or say sin doesn't matter (licentiousness). Both are lies.

We do not do good works to be saved but because we are saved.

Why is that concept so hard to grasp?

Jesus is the Root, the foundation.

 

[FranC]

Morning Fran. I must say your photo is striking! Very beautiful.

Hey, I keep reading posts like this one from you that say the Bible doesn't teach eternal security. What about the list of 101 verses (there are more) that I gave in posts 13509 & 13510? And why on earth wouldn't you read them? Most importantly, why wouldn't you WANT to believe them?

I forgot to thank you.
I changed it to an actor.
Someone scolded me for using my pix.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Penn, that picture isn't of Fran. It's Catherine Zeta-Jones, the actress.. Fran's trying to impress Dcon, lol..

Morning Fran. I must say your photo is striking! Very beautiful.

Hey, I keep reading posts like this one from you that say the Bible doesn't teach eternal security. What about the list of 101 verses (there are more) that I gave in posts 13509 & 13510? And why on earth wouldn't you read them? Most importantly, why wouldn't you WANT to believe them?

 

[FranC]

Penn, that picture isn't of Fran. It's Catherine Zeta-Jones, the actress.. Fran's trying to impress Dcon, lol..

Darn Blue...

It doesn't seem to be working...

But hope springs eternal !!

 

[PennEd]

I FORGOT!!

Will do.
This thread moves too fast for me.
It's lunchtime now...
I live in Italy.

Give me an hour and I'll go through EACH ONE!!
(Unless I faint first !!)

My wife is from Italy. She moved to USA when she was 4. She lived in Montella. A little North West of Rome I think.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You know I had a dream years ago of demons driving people to work work work. Keeping folks so busy, they never stopped and pray. They never rested or spent time being with God.

I watch some people work work work for money and buy things as if they can find happiness and joy in material possessions but they have maybe an hour to actually enjoy any of it,

Some parents rush rush rush through life from soccer games, to ballet to baseball to band but do they spend one hour just talking and listening to their kids?

Sometimes more activity isn't the answer.

Sometimes God just wants us to rest and spend time with Him. Just enjoy the blessings God has given us. Be content and thankful.

We are talking about the good gifts God gives us. Today, it's that God gives us peace,

The Bible story is when Jesus calmed the storm on the sea of Galilee.

Have you ever had times you totally freak out and cry to God in fear "Save me Lord, don't you care that I am going to drown!" and you hear in your heart "O ye of little faith" before God calms the storm and gives you peace?

Anyway, bedtime.

Hope you have a blessed night and that everyone remembers we have a savior that can calm any storm.

It is sad, We are so busy trying to take care of our selves, And acting like Christians, We can not see the selfish people that we are. The church has lost focus of what it means to be a child of God (or maybe the mainstream church never figured it out?) they think religion, worship service, Doing all these sacrimental traditional things, and trying our best to obey the law s what it is, and it is not.

It is serving the poor, Saving the lost, Serving each other, Studying to make ourself aproved, a workman who needs not be ashamed, And able to answer any question in season or out, And finding out our spiritual gift, which God has given us to help us serve others better.

Look at the religious "workers" all you hear is about self elf self. Work Work Work. You hear nothign or very little about God, and what he has done, is doing, and will do.

Hope you had a great night, I went out hit 9 holes of Golf, then slept like a baby, First time in Awhile. Praise God!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

very good Fran, .... and I can attest that God doesn't set aside sinners for His use, one must purify himself as the apostle James said, making himself fit for the Masters use....

You can only purify yourself by washing in the blood of the lamb on Calvary's tree.

Then as the article (which I can not believe you actually read it or understood it, because it does not say what you think it said) said, Allow God to sanctify yuo, which is a lifelong process, WHich will not be completed until we see Jesus.

 

[Ariel82]

I was crap at algebra and math at school.

Beleive it or not I'm qualified as an accountant and now work as a Finance Director.

When I was expelled from school the head of year told me I would amount to nothing and would be a bum because I didn't work hard.

He had no idea what was going on behind the closed doors of my life and trust me it was shocking.

So I did a business study course and found that I clicked with accountancy.
I worked hard and harder. The reason being is because I wanted to prove him wrong and me right.
I used to think to myself "I am going back to see him and tell him "Yes I'm a bum but a professional bum who earns 3 times more than you"

I never did it but I realised that I was actually working to prove myself, that I'm not actually a bum and I will show you.

Ring any bells?

I actually thank God because even with that attitude he has used my skills to help quite a few beleivers whom have been in a dire financial mess and I've never asked for a penny.

Im not telling anyone this to make me look good (trust me I know my heart and nothing is good about it)

What I'm trying to say is that my focus was wrong, I will work to prove it to you.
If work to prove then I am trying to prove something "It's all about what I have done to prove myself"

Not sure I've made my point but gonna click post quick reply and hope I make some sense.

I think as baby Christians we work to prove it to ourselves. Eventually God tells us to take a nap and rest for a while.

He loves us even if we give Him a lopsided pinch pot cigarette ash tray when we know He doesn't smoke.

What some folks forget is that we are God's children and He is able to function and accomplish His purposes in their world with or without us.

We aren't doing something for God in so much as God allowing us to be a part of His plan. Therefore when we do something good we shouldn't be expecting a reward, we should be thanking God for allowing us to grow and be a part of His plan.

If that makes any sense.

I remember to teach my kids their numbers and budgeting I would take play money. About $100 and we would go grocery shopping. It took twice as long to have my 3 and 5 year old count out the cost of each item and "pay" me as we put it into the cart, but I told them if we had extra money after we got all the food on the list they could pick out a treat.

We didn't have extra money, but they still got a treat. Not because they "earned it" because since we didn't have any extra money, they didn't expect it. They got it because of love and grace. I tell them God is like that. He gives us things we don't earn or deserve because He loves us.

In the world if you don't meet all the terms, then the other person doesn't have to honor the contract. However, grace is when you forgive and out of love give what is needed or desired anyway even when the other person doesn't quite make the mark.

I told them that at school they may meet people who don't share and are mean, but to overcome their meanness with love and grace. Forgive and share with them because they may not be blessed at home with as much love or something was might be happening in their life and they need that love and unexpected grace.

When they were little I wasn't sure how much they were listening but since then I have had a few encouraging comments from others.

We just have to pray and hope our kids have their own personal relationship with God,

 

[Grace777x70]

Hello Ariel

I think it is because certain people in this thread believe that once you become a Christian the first time that means you are eternally saved end of story and we cannot be lost and fall away from God and become non Christians again as explained in the parable of the sower. They believe we do not need to fight the good fight of faith everyday and that if we continue in known sin and do not repent of these sins before our probation here on earth is finished they will still be saved in their sins.

This is the deception of the devil and has it's origin from the Garden of Eden and the first lie.....

"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. (Gen 3:3)

"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. (Gen 3:1-5)

God tells us to follow Him and believe him and by complete faith and dependence in His Words allow Him to work through us to obey Him so he can save us from our sins (a work of a lifetime by walking with Him everyday). If we choose not to live by every word that is revealed to us by God we will not be saved while knowingly being disobedient to Him and holding on to sin.

As Christians we are faced with the same test as was Adam and Eve, who do we believe and obey? It is Satan that tells us that if we eat of the forbidden fruit to have knowledge of good and evil (sin) we shall not surely die, not God

God bless you

Sorry Just woke up and realized I did not post Ariel's post I was commenting on

I have been speaking with this new poster in the thread "Sabbath"

What does all this really mean? - it is "code" for you must observe the Sabbath Day like it's outlined in the law of Moses ( Which is denied by saying - it was first mentioned in Gen. 2 )

And "If" you love Jesus and then you will obey His commandments and follow the Sabbath. If you don't then it is sinning and dis-obeying God. It's a neat spiritual manipulation trick.

Then comes this "Why do you not believe the word of God. I only give you the word of God. Do you love Jesus?"

I encourage people to take religious doctrines for test runs to see what they are really saying and what is in them.

Paul said that he didn't stand for one hour when those came saying we must follow the law of Moses and circumcise the Christians now. ( Which is a form of following the Law of Moses by our own effort of what we do or don't do to obtain righteousness )

After all - it didn't originate with Moses but with Abraham. See how it looks "legitimate"? The message of Christ is Himself is the reality behind all the shadows of the Old Testament.

Galatians 2:3-5 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] But not even Titus, who was with me, though he was a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised.

[SUP]4 [/SUP] But it was because of the false brethren secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage.

[SUP]5 [/SUP] But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This sounds so profound and real, you could almost believe, except.

What matters in life? Words or actions or both?

So someone says I am this type of person because I say all the things that correspond with
that type of individual. Another says, I may get the words wrong, but look at how I behave
I am that type of person because of my behaviour.

Now Jesus says we need both the words, the meaning, the intention, and the actions that
prove we mean what we say and we have actually understood it and put it into action.

Legalism is about pretending to be something one is not, by appearing to be one way but
actually behind the scenes failing and in our hearts not being concerned.

Now think a little from Gods perspective. Who is true and who is false? Who has understood
the principles and who has missed the mark?

So many here claim the Kingdom is just about faith or belief. They go so far that only faith is
enough to prove you have come into the Kingdom.

Except if you are in the Kingdom your life should show it. If one lives like the world except for
statements of faith in Christ, how is this not just hypocracy, and superficial religion?

So much of scripture can be interpreted the way you want to. It comes down to a few key
verses or ideas. The key verses are Jesus leads us to fulfill the law, literally to walk in obedience
to it. And with your heart in the right place this is not a burden.

And my friend if you feel this a burden, your heart is not in the right place.
Please tell me which of the 10 commandments is hard to keep? Where do you fail? And why?
Bring this to the Lord is repentance and faith and you will find victory.

Now the argument used to be it was easy to obey the headline commandments, but the more
detailed issues were the problem. This has now disappeared because the speaker had never really
gone through the 10 commandments in detail and started to look at what righteousness really is.

“Come now, let us reason together,” says the Lord.
“Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.
If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the good things of the land;
but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword.”
For the mouth of the Lord has spoken.
isaiah 1:18-20

God is a God of reason, discussion, understanding, mercy and forgiveness.
Gods way is in our hearts response, willing and obedient.

Your right, Actions do speak louder than words. That,s why I take action, And when I see legalism being preached, I stomp my foot on it, and I am not afraid if I hurt anyones feelings, Just like Paul did when confronting his legalistic infiltrators, Just like Jesus did when he confronted the pharisee and saducee.

And can you please for once learn what legalism is, ad what it means. Your made up interpretations are so far off what everyone understand it to be, you can not understand what people mean by it, And no one can understand what you mean by it, so causes confusion when you mention it..

It is placing our acceptance by God dependent on the works we do. or saying we are punished severely for something we did or did not do.

Examples.

1. I have to work to maintain salvation
2. I committed this, or these sins, So I will never get what I want, and God will never love me
3. I committed this, or these sins, So I have to work and do all these things, then maybe God will forgive me
4. I did these terrible things in my life, no matter what I do. God will not allow me to do much in his service
5. (a good example we saw yesterday), I did not Go to church, So God blew my knees out
I can give many more examples, But I hope you get the point.

These things are destructive, They keep people from growing in Christ, They tear people down, They keep people from heaven (works based salvation) They make God out to be a dictator (which is exactly what Satan's lie is and has been from the beginning, and the lie which Jesus put down on the cross, which sadly, you do not appreciate like you should proven by the fact you state it is not enough to save you) and not an Abba Father we can go to whenever we want, with all our needs, including our sin, and find his comfort, even through his discipline. We can go without fear.

Lastly, I am sick of these lies about people saying the kingdom is all about faith and not works. If you people are ot going to humble yourself and even attempt to understand what people are saying, You have no one to blame but yourself when people get upset with you.

ENTERING the kingdom is all about faith alone

THE KINGDOM is all aboout christian growth wich includes works.

TRY FOR ONCE TO UNDERSTAND THAT IS WHAT WE PREACH AND BELIEVE. ok??

We are sick of the lies!

 

[Ariel82]

It is sad, We are so busy trying to take care of our selves, And acting like Christians, We can not see the selfish people that we are. The church has lost focus of what it means to be a child of God (or maybe the mainstream church never figured it out?) they think religion, worship service, Doing all these sacrimental traditional things, and trying our best to obey the law s what it is, and it is not.

It is serving the poor, Saving the lost, Serving each other, Studying to make ourself aproved, a workman who needs not be ashamed, And able to answer any question in season or out, And finding out our spiritual gift, which God has given us to help us serve others better.

Look at the religious "workers" all you hear is about self elf self. Work Work Work. You hear nothign or very little about God, and what he has done, is doing, and will do.

Hope you had a great night, I went out hit 9 holes of Golf, then slept like a baby, First time in Awhile. Praise God!

You see the first part gives some folks comfort,just as the second part is important to you.

I believe both can be a good work if done with a heart that seeks to glorify God.

However my point was that we all try and be Martha and serve others,we sometimes forget to be Mary and sit at God's feet and just be with Him.

Sometimes all I want from my kids is to sit with with and for them to tell me about their day. Even if we spent most of it together, I want to hear what made them happy and what troubled them.

.I believe when we take time to pray and tell God of our day. He responds a,d gives us how He views the world and comforts us with His love and plan. Even if we don't always understand, I find it comforting to know God has a plan, and He has it all under His control. When we give God control of our lives we can rest in His love and trust Him to guide us. We don't have to worry about tomorrow or even how we will be fed or clothed. We can focus on the task He asks us to do and trust God will handle the rest. That is true peace and rest.

 

[Grace777x70]

Great post! I can't give you another rep. Grrr

Also like that bit about the apples

And just like a dead tree with dead roots is just that... dead, and cannot produce anything. Just as those that bear fruit are those He prunes, so that they may bear more. Those are the ones that belong to Him (His children), not the dead trees and dead branches. He doesn't prune that which is dead. A person needs to be made alive in Christ first.

So then, how do good trees that are pruned by Him then become dead trees with dead roots?!!

Well said...

Another aspect that goes with "fruit inspectors" is just what is fruit? And what does this fruit look like. What if as an analogy a Christian is like an orange tree?

An orange tree is still an orange tree even though it doesn't produce the fruit we want to see in the timeframe we think it should. What happens if this orange tree dies before it has had a chance to be fed properly to grow up to be able to produce the fruit of a ripe orange?

To some works-based people - you would have to display 50 oranges in order to prove you are a real orange tree ( saved ) - to others you need 100 oranges in order to be a proved orange tree. ( saved ) So, this fruit inspection thing is not viable ..that's for God to look at people to determine if they are in Christ or not.

A person could have love and kindness as a fruit in their life but be addicted to some pills or alcohol which they are continuing to struggle with in their life or outbursts of anger..etc.

We religious people love to "categorize" sin - especially the ones that we have never done before and then look down on those that do have a problem that we don't. We say that they are "sinning" - and they are but so are we in other areas too. We all have the flesh to deal with and none of us behaves perfectly in our behavior.

The people that don't have a struggle with alcohol ( or basically anything that they themselves don't struggle with in their flesh that others do ) will condemn the ones that do have these struggles in the flesh and declare they don't have the fruit and thus are not saved. This is Pharisee-ism at it's finest.

Does the orange tree stop being an orange tree even though it dies without having fruit that we think "proves" it was an orange tree to begin with?

What if Christians were like that? What if we fed them messages about the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness in Christ so that they could grow? Then they would produce an abundance of fruit.

I say let's preach and teach the grace of Christ in their lives so that they have the proper nutrients to grow up in Him!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Blind leaders of the blind... both will fall in a ditch (Matthew 15:14)

No doubt there will probably be many on judgment day pointing fingers at their false teachers.

You can be sure these false teachers will not be trying to help the flock they led to hell with them, They will be the ones screaming Lord Lord, I did all these things in your name.....

 

[Ariel82]

I have so many typos in my post...hopefully the message still gets through. If not pm me a question.

This thread moves too fast to read all posts.

I start at the end and read backwards but some days I don't make it back to all the previous posts before 5 more pages are added.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You see the first part gives some folks comfort,just as the second part is important to you.

I believe both can be a good work if done with a heart that seeks to glorify God.

However my point was that we all try and be Martha and serve others,we sometimes forget to be Mary and sit at God's feet and just be with Him.

Sometimes all I want from my kids is to sit with with and for them to tell me about their day. Even if we spent most of it together, I want to hear what made them happy and what troubled them.

.I believe when we take time to pray and tell God of our day. He responds a,d gives us how He views the world and comforts us with His love and plan. Even if we don't always understand, I find it comforting to know God has a plan, and He has it all under His control. When we give God control of our lives we can rest in His love and trust Him to guide us. We don't have to worry about tomorrow or even how we will be fed or clothed. We can focus on the task He asks us to do and trust God will handle the rest. That is true peace and rest.

I lived the first part. It was dead, most Everyone in my church were spiritually lifeless, We would see each other only on Sunday, and maybe on wed night prayer.

We did not confess our sins to each other to get healed. We did not show who we truly were to each other. We came, Played church, Acted like we were righteous people and loved God, etc etc, and went home to our hidden sinful lives.

Year after year, people would fall away, and you would find out some sin issue took them down. But they were afraid to say anything to anyone to get help. because they knew they would be judged, attacked, Maligned, Told they do not have faith in God, because if they did they would not have this struggle. It is better to just hide it, Play church, and hope it goes away.

Well it does not work that way,

Granted not saying every traditional church is this way, My aunt goes to one, She loves the singing, and other stuff, But she also is a go getter. She makes sure people in the church gets together outside of church, She makes sure people know we all struggle. and she will be the first one to help Her husband (who is now with the lord) spent his whole lifetime serving God and others. SO it can be done,

I just think the much of the mainstream church has issues, it has lost focus, and thats why it is losing members left and right, and people are moving to non traditional non denominational churches.