"TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

sparkman · Jun 21, 2017

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

I don't agree concerning the Sabbath because Colossians 2:16-17 places it in the same category of applicability as "food and drink", festivals, and new moons.

I realize that SDAs try to split the "Ten Commandments" from the "Book of the Covenant" but there is one unified law, with the Ten Commandments being a preamble, and the rest of the Torah largely elaborating on it. So, I wouldn't hold that position. However, it is more coherent than the "Torah Observer" claim as I said previously. It's obvious no one keeps Torah because it's impossible to do so, without the Levitical Priesthood and Temple.

I am familiar with the position that Sabbath-breaking is the Mark of the Beast. I have held this position myself, and considered people who didn't keep the Sabbath to be unconverted. I don't hold that position anymore. Sin is the failure to reflect the glory of God. The Mosaic Covenant, and the Ten Commandments, only vaguely reflected any glory, and not all the commandments were related to it. Some were shadows and types of Christ and his work of redemption, as both of us agree upon.

Read II Corinthians 3. Moses hid his face, not to keep the Israelites from the brightness, but to hide the fact that this glory was fading. The same with the Mosaic Covenant. It has faded away. Note that it speaks directly of letters written on stone, so it is referring to the stone tablets of the Ten Commandments.

Some claim stone was used because it is enduring, but my position is that it reflected the hearts of unconverted Israelites. They had hard hearts, and the letters on stone reflected this.

The Sabbath in particular was one of several types of the redemption. The Israelites worked six days (symbolizing their situation in Egypt as slaves) and rested one day (symbolizing redemption; slaves could not rest). It is a beautiful type and I have no issue with someone observing Sabbath, festivals or clean meat laws but if they claim others are in sin for non-observance, or make it a condition or requirement of salvation, they are Judaizers.

sparkman · Jun 21, 2017

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Muzungu256 said:

The attempt is to discredit Christianity. It is about building evil suspicion. "Restorationists" thrive on the claim that Christianity has diverted away from the apostolic faith, and that their theology is the answer to this.

There is a grain of truth in the Judaizer claims. The grain is that some pastors have not focused on understanding the shadows and types of the Mosaic Covenant enough in their teaching. That leaves the door open for wolves like Judaizers to come into the flock and spread their heresies.

Restorationist organizations are full of people with a paranoid, suspicious mindset. I think what happens is that God liberates some from the bondage of Satan, and they are wary of everything because they've been deceived once before. This causes them to listen to kooks who claim that the evangelical church is also pagan and untrustworthy. However, the cultic organization itself is the untrustworthy one, full of unsound thinkers..and an organization doesn't have to be big to be cultic. It can be a home "church".

I highly recommend the book Shadows of Christ in the Law of Moses by Vern Poythress. It will enrich your understanding of the shadows and types of the Mosaic Covenant.

sparkman · Jun 21, 2017

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

oldethennew said:

Still trying to get me onto your counseling couch?

By the way don't use J in front of Yonah. J is a pagan letter. They don't like using it...it's Yeshua instead of Jesus, as an example. First prerequisite to being a Torah observer is to switch the J's to Y's.

I'm joking about that one but it seems like a lot of them try to modify their names to reflect Hebrew.

And, Yonah has called a sizeable sector of evangelical Christianity (Reformed Christians) followers of Satanic doctrine, besides claiming that those who don't observe the Sabbath are in sin.

The second claim places him into the Judaizer camp. If he clearly states that he does not believe that Sabbathbreaking is a sin, I will not call him a Judaizer anymore. However, if he maintains that belief, he is a Judaizer.

My parents were not abusive to me, anymore than most normal parents. I was raised by an Armstrongite who taught the church's false doctrines to me at some level, but it was tempered by a non-Armstrongite father...he wouldn't allow some of the kookiness to be foistered upon us. My mom said she was glad he didn't, later, because part of the teaching was related to withholding health care due to faith..they were almost like Word of Faith nuts. But, my faither would not allow that.

He also made sure that we were allowed to observe Christmas if we wanted.

I do remember my mother making some oddball comments about becoming God in the resurrection, and having to read the book "The Missing Dimension in Sex" by Herbert (Pervert) Armstrong, who may have molested his own daughter.

But, I wasn't abused any worse than people from my era and I respect and love my parents.

LoveGodForever · Jun 22, 2017

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Hi Sparkman,
Thanks for your comments. Sorry for the slow reply, I am not able to spend a lot of time here due to work and family commitments. This is a longer post as I thought it deserved some time. Hope you do not mind.

sparkman said:

“Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.” (Col 2:16-17)

These are interesting scriptures. Some people try and use this passage to say that the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Sabbath commandment in Ex 20:8-11 has been done away with thinking that the sabbath day(s) instead of day used in this text referred to one of the shadows or types that we were discussing in my last post that pointed to the coming of Jesus very much like many of the other types (e.g. Sacrificial lamb and animal offerings, feast days and ceremonial and sanctuary laws) pointing to Jesus and outlined the books of Moses (Torah) especially in Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. These were all part of the old covenant given after the fall of mankind, pointing to Jesus. These were done away at the cross because once Jesus had come this brought in the beginning of the new covenant.

To understand this passage of scripture however you need to look at the context of the scripture and also understand a little about the old testament feasts and holy days and new moons and festival and feast sabbath day(s) which were shadows that all pointed to Jesus. For example many of these old feast day(s) given in the Old Testament started and included on full moons, included burnt offerings, meat offering, drink offerings and ceremonial high Sabbath days (e.g. Passover, Feast of Unleavened bread see Ez 45:16-15).

There was seven festivals that did not necessarily occur on weekly Shabbat (seventh-day Sabbath) and are called by the name miqra ("called assembly") in Hebrew (Lev. 23). Three of these festivals occur in spring: the first and seventh days of Pesach (Passover), and Shavuot (Pentecost) which occurs in summer. Three occur in fall, in the seventh month, and are also called shabbaton: Rosh Hashanah (Feast of Trumpets); Yom Kippur, the "Sabbath of Sabbaths" (Atonement); and the first and eighth days of Sukkoth (Feast of Tabernacles). Sometimes the word shabbaton is extended to mean all seven festivals.
The Gospel of John says of the night immediately following Christ's burial that "that sabbath day was a high day" (19:31-42). That night was Nisan 15, just after the first day of Passover week (Unleavened Bread) and an annual miqra and rest day, in most chronologies. (In other systems, it was Nisan 14, i.e., weekly but not annual Sabbath.) The King James Version may thus be the origin of naming the annual rest days "High Sabbaths" in English.

It was these High Sabbath that occurred within the Feast days that were a shadow of things to come not the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Weekly Sabbath. Why? Because everything relating to the Books of Moses and the Feast days (especially in Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy etc.) Where part of the old covenant pointing out the plan of salvation and was given to mankind AFTER the fall of mankind. The 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Sabbath however was given to mankind BEFORE the fall of mankind. So it is impossible that Col 2:16-17 is referring to God’s 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day commandment (Ex 20:8-11) as being one of the types and shadows which pointed to Jesus.
Note: If anyone wants detailed nuts and bolts of all the feast day yearly ceremonial Sabbaths with all scripture references if anyone would like a copy. If you would like a copy just let me know if you want the info. It’s a bit long to cut and paste here.

sparkman said:

Keep in mind here that when we use the word “Torah” (Hebrew) or “Pentateuch” (Greek) its meaning is the Book of Moses which is made of the first five books of the Bible (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy).

The purpose of the Torah of Book of Moses was to;
1. Provide the history of the 7 Day week of the creation of all things and the Creator (Genesis)
2. Provide the history of the fall of mankind into sin and our destruction because of sin with a great flood (Genesis)
3. Provide the history of God’s faithful people that followed God through this period (the minority Genesis and Exodos).
4. Provide the history of God’s covenant to Abraham and his seed because they obeyed God through faith and how God worked through his chosen people (Genesis and Exodos)
5. Provide history of the oppression of Gods people from those that do not follow God (Exodus)
6. Provide history of the deliverance of God’s people from oppression (Exodus)
7. Provide history of how God gave His Law (10 commandments) to his people which was spoken by God, written by God on two tables of stone from Sinai. (Exodus)
8. Provide a description of the plan of salvation from sin revealed through the Priestly Sanctuary service, ceremonial laws and animal sacrificial system that include lessons from feast and holy days, new moons and ceremonial Sabbaths connected to these feasts (e.g. The Passover, Day of Atonement, Feast of Trumpets etc.) that all point to the coming of Jesus as the Saviour of the world. (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy)
9. The rest of the Book of Moses (Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) outlines laws of Moses that are related to (the sanctuary service, ceremonial laws, civil and health laws.

The Book of Moses “Torah” is based around God’s 10 commandments but is not God’s 10 commandments. It describes what the 10 commandment are, how they were given and provides the background as to why God’s Law was given as well as providing a prescription if God’s people should sin and break any of his 10 commandments through the Sanctuary service, ceremonial laws and sacrificial animal systems, Feast days, Holy Days, New Moons and ceremonial Sabbaths etc. which were a shadow of things to come (Col 2:16-17, Heb 10:1, Eph 2:14) and pointed to Jesus as our sacrifice and great high priest. The Torah (Book of Moses) is not the Law of God but a background to WHY it was given. It was placed in the side of the “Ark of the Covenant” but not inside the Ark of the Covenant with the 10 commandments. The Torah or Book of Moses is complimentary to God’s Law but is not God’s Law.

sparkman said:

This is getting into a complete new topic so will not spend much time here. Sabbath breaking does not become the “Mark of the Beast” until it becomes forced observance and people are made to bow down to it under law of punishment. It is interesting not many people know that these laws have already been enacted in the US. They are called Sunday Blue laws and are ready to be enacted very quickly if needed. You can read about them here (Wiki). I have never held the view that those that do not keep the Sabbath are unconverted. God’s Word tells us…

“And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.” (John 10:16) Jesus further tells us that….
“But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeks such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” (John 4:23-24) This event is also further described in the book of Revelations (Revelations 18:1-5). My view is that God has his people in all Churches but there will be a time that his sheep will hear His voice and there shall be one shepherd and one fold of God’s followers who worship him in spirit and in truth. (see Rev 14:12) Shadows were touched on above so no need to comment here.

sparkman said:

Yes absolutely! This is referring to the new covenant of God writing His Laws in our hearts by the operation of God. So we no longer try to keep God’s Laws by the works of the Law but by complete faith and dependence on the Word of God to do what it says. Jesus promises to create in us a new heart through His spirit so that His Laws are kept in us now because we love him. This is a free gift to all who come to Jesus not because we deserve but because he loved us and chose to die for us that whoever should believe on His should not perish but have everlasting life (Heb 8:10-12; John 3:16)

sparkman said:

Well the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] Commandment 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Sabbath has never been a type or a shadow of things to come as highlighted earlier. This is because all the types and shadows highlighted in the Book of Moses (Torah; especially Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) where given to mankind after the fall of mankind. The 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Sabbath however was instituted before the fall of mankind. God blessed this day and made it a holy day before the fall of mankind (Genesis 2:1-3). For this reason it is impossible for the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] day Sabbath to be a type or a shadow of things to come.

The ceremonial Sabbath connected to Feast days of the Jewish calendar however have been fulfilled and were a shadow of things to come because they were connected to yearly feasts which pointed to the Lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world (John 1:28-36).

Hope this is helpful, I may not be on as much as I would like but will try and get on when I can sorry for any delays. Please forgive any typos I did not have much time to edit.

God bless you.

sparkman · Jun 22, 2017

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

LoveGodForever,

Are you Seventh Day Adventist? I am well aware of their attempt to divorce the Saturday Sabbath from Colossians 2:16-17. See Dale Ratzlaff's book "Sabbath in Christ" for a longer technical argument but as a quick response, the word "sabbaton" is used to refer to Sabbath in these verses and it is not used decisively in any other place in the NT to refer to a festival. In addition, the word itself is translated "week" alternatively so it definitely has a weekly context.

More revealing, though, is that Gentiles were NEVER instructed by Paul to keep the Sabbath or to refrain from eating unclean meats. It is not mentioned on any of the "sin lists" of the Gentiles. This would be a notable omission if it was still applicable.

Additionally, there were New Testament believers who were slaves and obviously their unbelieving masters would not allow them to simply take a day of rest at will. So, it would have been an issue that needed addressing.

It would be incoherent to claim the Sabbath applies but weekly festivals do not. The Apostles observed the festivals after the resurrection along with the Sabbath. Why treat one different than the other? in fact, they observed physical circumcision as well. See Acts 21. Why? Cultural reasons, preference, and missionary facilitation.

I don't even know if I can say the apostles "observed" the Sabbath or festivals. Paul was present at synagogue meetings on the Sabbath but that proves nothing as he was there for evangelistic purposes. Synagogue was where people met to hear scripture read and it was a natural place to interact for evangelistic purposes.

Please also note that in regards to Seventh Day Adventist theology, I find it ironic that the organization itself allows abortion in the case of incest, rape, and congenital defects including Down's syndrome, and performs elective abortions of all types in their health care facilities, yet makes a big deal over days and diet. In fact, this has been a cause of some SDAs refusing to be involved in reaching out to Roman Catholics. Pretty hard to preach the Sabbath to people when you promote abortion.

By the way, I brought this up to a Seventh Day Adventist pastor and his response was simply "it's up to the mother and her doctor" as if that resolves the pastoral responsibility. If a pastor remains silent, he is not guiltless. God holds the teacher accountable.

And, this issue is not off topic as it is hypocritical to pay attention to minutiae while swallowing camels. But it only applies if you are associated with the Seventh Day Adventist church.

Grace777x70 · Jun 22, 2017

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

I have asked this new poster LoveGodForever ( I do love his name ) the questions about whether a Gentile Christian if he doesn't follow the Sabbath day as outlined in the law of Moses ( They always say - it started in Gen 2 but there was no command to keep it until the law was brought in )

He doesn't ever come out and answer straight even though I have asked about 5 times. Here was my final attempt.

You can say "Yes - if you do not observe the Sabbath from Friday night until Saturday as outlined in the law - then you are sinning and disobeying God - or you could say - No, you re not disobeying God. "

You could say "Yes- I believe that God throws His children into hell - or no, I don't believe God throws His children into hell."

See how easy it is to answer directly? Give it a shot. Speak honestly and forthright and we can see what you are really saying. I like to take religions for test runs to see what is really in them. Thank you

Muzungu256 · Jun 22, 2017

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

im torn on this subject.............. i keep the sabbath but i cant say if its sin not to keep it or not.............
but regardless of that: why so much hate for the seventh day adventists?????????? they seem pretty cool bunch to me......... walter veith has some nice videos and doug whatever his name was.......... they believe in the trinity thats good...........

graceNpeace · Jun 22, 2017

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Muzungu, you don't need to feel torn at all.
Observe any day of the week that you like.

A problem only arises if you decide that others who do not observe what you do are wrong.
Most groups that are sabbath-observers though are exceedingly critical of others who are not sabbath observers and that tends to rub off on anyone attending sabbath-observant congregations...

Grace777x70 · Jun 22, 2017

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

graceNpeace said:

I agree...

Just to be clear on this Sabbath day thing - I will say this again as I have many times in the past. Although it is mostly extreme Hebrew Roots proponents that speak of the Sabbath Day keeping - there is also the denomination of the 7th Day Adventist too.

I do not look at all Hebrew Roots ( or Sabbath Day keepers ) adherents as all the same ( This includes those that observe the Sabbath day in various ways according to their cultural backgrounds ).

As I have said before - there are many that are of authentic Jewish descent and they like their traditions but they do not say that others need to observe the Sabbath or feasts as in the law of Moses or you are dis-obeying God and sinning. They observe these things to see Christ as the fulfillment of them - not as something they "need" to do now.

This group has excellent teachings on how Christ has fulfilled the Law and show Christ in every part of the Old Testament - including the Sabbath Day rest. Jesus said that all the scriptures speak about Him.

This group of believers are a major blessing to us in the body of Christ and are not Judaizers such as Paul encountered and that are also in the extreme sects of Hebrew Roots that say believers in Christ must "observe the Sabbath and the feasts like in the law of Moses - or they are dis-obeying God and sinning".

Those - run away from as fast as you can as they are perverting the gospel just like Paul said they are doing! - but do not put all Hebrew Roots people in the same boat as the extreme sects because they are not the same.

sparkman · Jun 22, 2017

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

LoveGodForever,

The claim that mankind observed the Sabbath at creation is not provable. The Seventh Day Adventist assertion is that it was a creation ordinance but note that Genesis 2 indicates that it was GOD who "ceased" his creation activity and NOTHING is said about man observing it. It was instituted when God began to work with ancient Israel when God began to work with them.

Exodus 16 records the first use of the word Sabbath. It was a unique sign given to Israel (Exodus 31) as a sign between them and God. Like many parts of the Torah, it was meant in a "shadow and type" manner to reinforce the idea that they were supposed to be like their Creator. It is not an inherent aspect of Gods character to rest on the Sabbath and to claim that is foolishness. God works on every day; he upholds the universe. He doesn't rest on any day. That was part of Jesus' argument in John 5:17-19. Jesus was saying "I am YHVH; I never ceased being YHVH; and YHVH works continually". The Jews knew God works all the time upholding the universe so therefore Jesus was claiming deity. And he was claiming to be a Sabbath-breaker in essence because he never ceased being YHVH as a man. I suspect most SDAs won't understand what I am saying though because it's been my experience they don't understand the Trinity let alone the hypostatic union. I'm not saying that jesus broke the Sabbath on the man level but on the God level he worked continually as he upholds the universe.

I also find it amusing that you separate the Sabbath from the festivals because the weekly Sabbath is the first item of Leviticus 23 IS the weekly Sabbath. It is mentioned using the same language concerning convocations. Additionally regarding Colossians 2:16-17, if your view is that Sabbath refers to festivals it's incoherent because festivals are already mentioned.

The wording uses a formation that is replicated in the Old Testament of weekly, monthly, and annual. It is also exhibited in the annual, monthly, weekly formation.

There is no mistake that Colossians 2:16-17 includes the weekly Sabbath and this topic is covered well in Dale Ratzlaffs book Sabbath in Christ.

While your approach is amicable, please don't assume that I am uninformed about the issues regarding the topic. I have been a Christian for 32 years and 10 of those as a hardcore Judaizer. I didn't lightly change my mind on this topic.

AND quit trying to correct my use of Torah to refer to the Mosaic Law. Look up the range of meaning that Torah has:

law, direction, instruction
1. instruction, direction (human or divine)
  1. body of prophetic teaching
  2. instruction in Messianic age
  3. body of priestly direction or instruction
  4. body of legal directives
2. law
  1. law of the burnt offering
  2. of special law, codes of law
3. custom, manner
4. the Deuteronomic or Mosaic Law

sparkman · Jun 22, 2017

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Muzungu256 said:

I like some SDAs myself but their theology is whacked. Concerning the Trinity SDAs don't have a clearly defined view of the Trinity. Some are tritheists and not Trinitarian. A Seventh Day Adventist pastor who is knowledgeable told me that he doesn't believe the "Roman Catholic Trinity" but he believes the Trinity. He doesnt believe that God is co-essential; sharing the same essence. Therefore he doesn't believe the Trinity in a Christian sense.

Additionally when it comes down to it, they accept Ellen G. White as a prophetess who interprets Scripture for them. It's one of their 26 fundamental beliefs they affirm prior to baptism.

Personally I believe the day a person keeps to God, if any, is their own business but if they insist others are in sin for non observance then they are judging others and are in violation of Romans 14 and Colossians 2:16-17. Additionally, with SDAs they have other bad doctrine including the Investigative Judgment and Great Controversy and unbiblical dietary laws. Also strange is their claim that there are other unseen worlds whose Adams didn't sin.

I am interested; does Doug Batchelor indicate on his program that he is Seventh Day Adventist? It is common for Seventh Day Adventists to fail to acknowledge themselves on public announcements for Bible studies and on other media which is deceptive. A member of the Seventh Day Adventist church told me this is common practice, and he says that it is a common thing to quote "Sister White" repetitively throughout the service rather than the Bible but he says that it varies amongst congregations. Some are less cultic and more evangelical.

There is a free magazine called Proclamation! that addresses Seventh Day Adventist issues if anyone is interested. I read it myself for their materials on the Sabbath and New Covenant.

LoveGodForever · Jun 22, 2017

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Hi Sparks and all,

It is fine and everyone is entitled to their opinions but I did not see you answer my last post. There is a lot from God's Word in there to consider for those that are interested. I think the only way however for anyone to decide on anything relating to the Word of God is to be like the faithful Bereans who received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (Acts 17:11) Yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, that thou might be justified in thy sayings, and might overcome when thou art judged."(Rom 3:4)

For me I study the Word of God for myself I am not here on behalf of any Church or interested in promoting any Church or religion. I am not interested in following the teachings of men. I have only ever pointed people to God's Words because this is where you will find Jesus. If you with an honest heart want to know the truth of God’s Word, Jesus promises you that “If any man wills to do his will He shall know of the doctrine whether it is of God or not.” (John 7:17) But this promise is conditional on finding Jesus through His Word. (Isa 55:6-7; Isa 29:11-13; Matt 6:33; John 14:26; 16:13)

I have to leave now but thought I would leave you with some more of God's Words for you to consider. Here is 100 fun facts backed up with God’s Word regarding God’s Sabbath and Sunday observance. Have fun now.

1. After working the first six days of the week in creating this earth, the great God rested on the seventh day. (Genesis 2:1.3.)

2. This stamped that day as God’s rest day, or Sabbath day, as Sabbath day means rest day. To illustrate: When a person is born on a certain day, that day thus becomes his birthday. So when God rested upon the seventh day, that day became His rest, or Sabbath, day.

3. Therefore the seventh day must always be God’s Sabbath day. Can you change your birthday from the day on which you were born to one on which you were not born? No. Neither can you change God’s rest day to a day on which He did not rest. Hence the seventh day is still God’s Sabbath day.

4. The Creator blessed the seventh day. (Genesis 2:3.)

5. He sanctified the seventh day. (Exodus 20:11.)

6. He made it the Sabbath day in the Garden of Eden. (Genesis 2:1-3.)

7. It was made before the fall; hence it is not a type; for types were not introduced till after the fall.

8. Jesus says it was made for man (Mark 2:27), that is, for the race, as the word man is here unlimited; hence, for the Gentile as well as for the Jew.

9. It is a memorial of creation. (Exodus 20:11; 31:17.) Every time we rest upon the seventh day, as God did at creation, we commemorate that grand event.

10. It was given to Adam, the head of the human race. (Mark 2:27; Genesis 2:1-3.)

11. Hence through him, as our representative, to all nations. (Acts 17:26.)

12. It is’ not a Jewish institution, for it was made 2,300 years before ever there was a Jew.

13. The Bible never calls it the Jewish Sabbath, but always “the Sabbath of the Lord thy God.” Men should be cautious how they stigmatize God’s holy rest day.

14. Evident reference is made to the Sabbath and the seven-day week all, through the patriarchal age. (Genesis 2:1-3; 8:10-12; 29:27-28.etc.)

15. It was a part of God’s law before Sinai. (Exodus 16:4, 27-29.)

16. Then God placed it in the heart of His moral law. (Exodus 20:1-17.) Why did He place it there if it was not like the other nine precepts, which all admit to be immutable?

17. The seventh-day Sabbath was commanded by the voice of the living God. (Deuteronomy 4:12-13.)

18. Then He wrote the Commandment with His own finger. (Exodus 31:18.)

19. He engraved it in the enduring stone, indicating its imperishable nature. (Deuteronomy 5:22.)

20. It was sacredly preserved in the ark in the holy of holies. (Deuteronomy 10:1-5.)

21. God forbade work upon the Sabbath, even in the most hurrying times. (Exodus 34:21.)

22. God destroyed the Israelites in the wilderness because they profaned the Sabbath. (Ezekiel 20:12-13.)

23. It is the sign of the true God, by which we are to know Him from false gods. (Ezekiel 20:20.)

24. God promised that Jerusalem should stand forever if the Jews would keep the Sabbath (Jeremiah 17:24-25.)

25. He sent them into the Babylonish captivity for breaking it. (Nehemiah 13:18.)

26. He destroyed Jerusalem for its violation. (Jeremiah 17:27.)

27. God has pronounced a special blessing on all the Gentiles who will keep it. (Isaiah 56:6-7.)

28. This is in the prophecy, which refers wholly to the Christian dispensation. (See Isaiah 56.)

29. God has promised to bless all who keep the Sabbath. (Isaiah 56:2.)

30. The Lord requires us to call it “honourable.” (Isaiah 58:13.) Beware, ye who take delight in calling it the. “old
Jewish Sabbath,” “a yoke of bondage,” etc.

31. After the holy Sabbath has been trodden down “many generations,” it is to be restored in the last days. (Isaiah 58:12-13.)

32. All the holy prophets kept the seventh day.

33. When the Son of God came, He kept the seventh day all His life. (Luke 4:16; John 15:10.) Thus He followed
His Father’s example at creation. Shall we not be safe in following the example of both the Father and the Son?

34. The seventh day is the Lord’s Day. (See Revelation 1:10; Mark 2:28; Isaiah 58:13; Exodus 20:10.)

35. Jesus was Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28), that is, to love and protect it, as the husband is the lord of the wife, to love and cherish her (1 Peter 3:6.)

36. He vindicated the Sabbath as a merciful institution designed for man’s good. (Mark 2:23-28.)

37. Instead of abolishing the Sabbath, He carefully taught how it should be observed. (Matthew 13:1-13.)

38. He taught His disciples that they should do nothing upon the Sabbath day but what was “lawful” (Matthew 12:12.)

39. He instructed His apostles that the Sabbath should be prayerfully regarded forty years after His resurrection. (Matthew 24:20.)

40. The pious women who had been with Jesus carefully kept the seventh day after His death. (Luke 23:56.)

41. Thirty years after Christ’s resurrection, the Holy Spirit’ expressly calls it “the Sabbath day,” (Acts 13:14.)

42. Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, called it the “Sabbath day” in A.D. 45. (Acts 13:27.) Did not Paul know? Or shall we believe modern teachers, who affirm that it ceased to be the Sabbath at the resurrection of Christ?

43. Luke, the inspired Christian historian, writing as late as A.D. 62, calls it the “Sabbath day.” (Acts 13:44.)

44. The Gentile converts called it the Sabbath. (Acts 13:42.)

45. In the great Christian council, A.D. 49. In the presence of the apostles and thousands of disciples, James calls it the “Sabbath day.” (Acts 15:21.)

46. It was customary to hold prayer meetings upon that day. (Acts 16:13.)

47. Paul read the Scriptures in public meetings on that day. (Acts 17:2-3.)

48. It was his custom to preach upon that day. (Acts 17:2-3.)

49. The Book of Acts alone gives a record of his holding eighty-four meetings upon that day. (See Acts 13:14, 44; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4. 11.)

50. There was never any dispute between the Christians and the Jews about the Sabbath day. This is proof that the Christians still observed the same day that the Jews did.

51. In all their accusations against Paul, they never charged him with disregarding the Sabbath day. Why did they not, if he did not keep it?

52. But Paul himself expressly declared that he had kept the law. “Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple,nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.” Acts 25:8. How could this be true if he had not kept the Sabbath?

53. The Sabbath is mentioned in the New Testament fifty-nine times, and always with respect, bearing the same title it had in the Old Testament, “the Sabbath day.”

54. Not a word is said anywhere in the New Testament about the Sabbath’s being abolished, done away, changed, or anything of the kind.

55. God has never given permission to any man to work upon it. Reader, by what authority do you use - the seventh day for common labor?

56. No Christian of the New Testament, either before or after the resurrection, ever did ordinary work upon the seventh day. Find one case of that kind, and we will yield the question. Why should modern Christians do differently from Bible Christians?

57. There is no record that God has ever removed His blessing or sanctification from the seventh day.

58. As the Sabbath was kept in Eden before the fall, so it will be observed eternally in the new earth after the restitution. (Isaiah 66:22-23.)

59. The seventh-day Sabbath was an important part of the law of God, as it came from His own mouth, and was written by His own finger upon stone at Sinai. (See Exodus 20.) When Jesus began His work, He expressly declared that He had not come to destroy the law. “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets.” Matthew 5:17

60. Jesus severely condemned the Pharisees as hypocrites for pretending to love God, while at the same tune they made void one of the Ten Commandments by their tradition. The keeping of Sunday is only a tradition of men.

61. The very first thing recorded In the Bible is work done on Sunday, the first day of the week. (Genesis l: l-5.) The Creator Himself did this. If God made the earth on Sunday, can it be wicked for us to work on Sunday?

62. God commands men to work upon the first day of the week. (Exodus 20:8-11.) Is it wrong to obey God?

63. None of the patriarchs ever kept it.

64. None of the holy prophets ever kept it.

65. By the express command of-God, His holy people used the first day of the week as a common working day for 4,000 years, at least.

66. God Himself calls it a “working” day. (Ezekiel 46:1.)

67. God did not rest upon it.

68. He never blessed it.

69. Christ did not rest upon it.

70. Jesus was a carpenter (Mark 6:3), and worked at His trade until He was thirty years old. He kept the Sabbath and worked six days in the week, as all admit. Hence He did many a hard day’s work on Sunday.

71. The apostles worked upon it during the same time.

72. The apostles never rested upon it.

73. Christ never blessed it.

74. It has never been blessed by any divine authority.

75. It has never been sanctified.

76. No law was ever given to enforce the keeping of it, hence it is no transgression to work upon it. “Where no law
is, there is no transgression.” Romans 4:15 (See also 1 John 3:4.)

77. The New Testament nowhere forbids work to be done on it.

78. No penalty is provided for its violation.

79. No blessing is promised for its observance.

80. No regulation is given as to how it ought to be observed. Would this be so if the Lord wished us to keep it?

81. It is never called the Christian Sabbath.

82. It is never called the Sabbath day at all.

83. It is never called the Lord’s day.

84. It is never called even a rest day.

85. No sacred title whatever is applied to it. Then why should we call it holy?

86. It is simply called “first day of the week.”

87. Jesus never-mentioned it in any way, never took its name upon His lips, so far as the record shows.

88. The word Sunday never occurs in the Bible at all.

89. Neither God, Christ, nor inspired men ever said one word in favour of Sunday as a holy day.

90. The first day of the week is mentioned only eight times in all the New Testament. (Matthew 28:1; Mark 16:2,9;
Luke 24:1; John 20:1, 19; Acts 20:7; 1 Corinthians 16:2.)

91. Six of these texts refer to the same first day of the week.

92. Paul directed the saints to look over their secular affairs on that day. (1Corinthians 16:2.)

93. In all the New Testament we have a record of only one religious meeting held upon that day, and even this was a night meeting. (Acts 20:5-12.)

94. There is not intimation that they ever held a meeting upon it before or after that.

95. It was not their custom to meet on that day.

96. There was no requirement to break bread on that day.

97. We have an account of only one instance in which it was done. (Acts 20:7.)

98. That was done in the night-after midnight. (Verses 7-11.) Jesus celebrated it on Thursday evening (Luke 22),
and the disciples sometimes did it every day (Acts 2:42-46.)

99. The Bible nowhere says that the first day of the week commemorates the resurrection of Christ. This is a tradition of men, which contradicts the law of God. (Matthew 15:1-9.) Baptism commemorates the burial and resurrection of Jesus. (Romans 6:3-5.)

100. Finally, the New Testament is totally silent with regard to any change of the Sabbath day or any sacredness for the first day.

God Bless you all I have to really go now bb, I may not be back for a while but will pop in when I can

sparkman · Jun 22, 2017

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Note that LoveGodForever simply spammed this thread with massive posts that would take me hours to address. I believe it is intentional. Additionally he doesn't identify himself as Seventh Day Adventist even though he obviously is.

He has learned the tactics of his organization well.

Heres a great magazine addressing their issues:

Proclamation Magazine

By the way LoveGodForever, your spamming convinces me more and more that SDAs are cultic.

If anyone wants to have a one on one convo about the Sabbath we can chat in the chat rooms or on Skype without the annoying spammer.

sparkman · Jun 22, 2017

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Muzungu256 said:

You might check out the channel JerusalemAssembly on YouTube. They are observers but sound theologically.

I have tried to convey the message that I have no issue with those who don't claim non observers are in sin and aren't trying to disparage the Christian church as a whole. Judaizers are engaged in this behavior of claiming others are Satanic and pointing out issues with the church constantly. Often they hide their contempt for nonobservers but it exposes itself sooner or later. I've learned over time not to trust most observers because they hide their contempt but it rears its head eventually.

False teachers can seem nice. Niceness doesn't equate to good doctrine. Wolves in sheeps clothing can seem like nice friendly sheep but their nature is that of a wolf still.

sparkman · Jun 22, 2017

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

sparkman said:

And the idea of being a wolf in sheeps clothing makes me think of the Seventh Day Adventists habit of not identifying themselves clearly in evangelistic efforts. Why? Are they behaving like wolves in sheeps clothing? Yes. Whether they are malicious or not failing to identify one's self is definitely wolvish behavior.

garee · Jun 22, 2017

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Still trying to get others to follow after a law of the fathers as oral traditions of men which is shown by your misunderstanding of using letters of the English alphabet .God does not have a name as humans needed to distinguish one form from another form. Christians walk by faith the unseen eternal. He is not a man as us never was never will be. God cannot die. Neither could He create another god that has no beginning of days or end of Spirit life.

The name Jesus and Jehovah both speak of the immutable attribute that God is savoir also called I Am. There is no secret name or handshake or men do not enter fellowship with the Holy Spirit.

.

God understands all languages even before a word hits the lip of His prophets.

Its what reformations do.... reform by restoring the goverment of God to another time period .The time of reformation had come.

The Sabbath is a ceremonial law we observe it that way, as a shadow and not as if it was a moral law as something we could judge one another in respect to.

garee · Jun 22, 2017

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Baptism has to do with entering the Preisthood of believers as those sent out (apostles)according to the great commission .

The first day represents light as the children of light.

It is a tradition of men that changed a non time sensitive word Rest(Sabbath) to one called a week. The meaning does not change form the first use in the verse to the second. It would seem some over zealot SDA had their say.

Mat 28:1 In the end of the Sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulcher....KJ

Mat 28:1 And on the eve of the sabbaths, at the dawn, toward the first of the sabbaths, came Mary the Magdalene, and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre,... YLT

The literal translation introduces the new era of Sabbaths as a ceremonial law not subject to judgment. The fulfillment of the rest that was obtained from the foundation of the world as the Lamb of God will come to full fruitation in the new heavens and earth.

Today as long as today is called today every time we do hear the evoice of God and not harden our hearts we enter that rest by faith.. this is not by something we could do outwardly as a sign a person has the Holy Spirit. The Jews required that kind of sign before they would believe making the cross withput effect. Christ said it an evil generation as natural unconverted man that does seek after sign designed for those who rebell . Prophecy for those who do believe to the salvation of their soul

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

The lamb in respect to the rest we do have is not subject to the Old testement .Every day that we can rest by not hardening our heart when he hear the word of God that works in us to both will and perform His good pleasure, is sacred .

There is no work we could do outwardly that would prove we Have the Spirit of Christ inwardly.making the cross without effect

sparkman · Jun 22, 2017

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

LoveGodForever said:

Hi Sparkman,
Thanks for your comments. Sorry for the slow reply, I am not able to spend a lot of time here due to work and family commitments. This is a longer post as I thought it deserved some time. Hope you do not mind.

“Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.” (Col 2:16-17)

These are interesting scriptures. Some people try and use this passage to say that the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Sabbath commandment in Ex 20:8-11 has been done away with thinking that the sabbath day(s) instead of day used in this text referred to one of the shadows or types that we were discussing in my last post that pointed to the coming of Jesus very much like many of the other types (e.g. Sacrificial lamb and animal offerings, feast days and ceremonial and sanctuary laws) pointing to Jesus and outlined the books of Moses (Torah) especially in Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. These were all part of the old covenant given after the fall of mankind, pointing to Jesus. These were done away at the cross because once Jesus had come this brought in the beginning of the new covenant.

To understand this passage of scripture however you need to look at the context of the scripture and also understand a little about the old testament feasts and holy days and new moons and festival and feast sabbath day(s) which were shadows that all pointed to Jesus. For example many of these old feast day(s) given in the Old Testament started and included on full moons, included burnt offerings, meat offering, drink offerings and ceremonial high Sabbath days (e.g. Passover, Feast of Unleavened bread see Ez 45:16-15).

There was seven festivals that did not necessarily occur on weekly Shabbat (seventh-day Sabbath) and are called by the name miqra ("called assembly") in Hebrew (Lev. 23). Three of these festivals occur in spring: the first and seventh days of Pesach (Passover), and Shavuot (Pentecost) which occurs in summer. Three occur in fall, in the seventh month, and are also called shabbaton: Rosh Hashanah (Feast of Trumpets); Yom Kippur, the "Sabbath of Sabbaths" (Atonement); and the first and eighth days of Sukkoth (Feast of Tabernacles). Sometimes the word shabbaton is extended to mean all seven festivals.
The Gospel of John says of the night immediately following Christ's burial that "that sabbath day was a high day" (19:31-42). That night was Nisan 15, just after the first day of Passover week (Unleavened Bread) and an annual miqra and rest day, in most chronologies. (In other systems, it was Nisan 14, i.e., weekly but not annual Sabbath.) The King James Version may thus be the origin of naming the annual rest days "High Sabbaths" in English.

It was these High Sabbath that occurred within the Feast days that were a shadow of things to come not the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Weekly Sabbath. Why? Because everything relating to the Books of Moses and the Feast days (especially in Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy etc.) Where part of the old covenant pointing out the plan of salvation and was given to mankind AFTER the fall of mankind. The 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Sabbath however was given to mankind BEFORE the fall of mankind. So it is impossible that Col 2:16-17 is referring to God’s 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day commandment (Ex 20:8-11) as being one of the types and shadows which pointed to Jesus.
Note: If anyone wants detailed nuts and bolts of all the feast day yearly ceremonial Sabbaths with all scripture references if anyone would like a copy. If you would like a copy just let me know if you want the info. It’s a bit long to cut and paste here.

Keep in mind here that when we use the word “Torah” (Hebrew) or “Pentateuch” (Greek) its meaning is the Book of Moses which is made of the first five books of the Bible (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy).

The purpose of the Torah of Book of Moses was to;
1. Provide the history of the 7 Day week of the creation of all things and the Creator (Genesis)
2. Provide the history of the fall of mankind into sin and our destruction because of sin with a great flood (Genesis)
3. Provide the history of God’s faithful people that followed God through this period (the minority Genesis and Exodos).
4. Provide the history of God’s covenant to Abraham and his seed because they obeyed God through faith and how God worked through his chosen people (Genesis and Exodos)
5. Provide history of the oppression of Gods people from those that do not follow God (Exodus)
6. Provide history of the deliverance of God’s people from oppression (Exodus)
7. Provide history of how God gave His Law (10 commandments) to his people which was spoken by God, written by God on two tables of stone from Sinai. (Exodus)
8. Provide a description of the plan of salvation from sin revealed through the Priestly Sanctuary service, ceremonial laws and animal sacrificial system that include lessons from feast and holy days, new moons and ceremonial Sabbaths connected to these feasts (e.g. The Passover, Day of Atonement, Feast of Trumpets etc.) that all point to the coming of Jesus as the Saviour of the world. (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy)
9. The rest of the Book of Moses (Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) outlines laws of Moses that are related to (the sanctuary service, ceremonial laws, civil and health laws.

The Book of Moses “Torah” is based around God’s 10 commandments but is not God’s 10 commandments. It describes what the 10 commandment are, how they were given and provides the background as to why God’s Law was given as well as providing a prescription if God’s people should sin and break any of his 10 commandments through the Sanctuary service, ceremonial laws and sacrificial animal systems, Feast days, Holy Days, New Moons and ceremonial Sabbaths etc. which were a shadow of things to come (Col 2:16-17, Heb 10:1, Eph 2:14) and pointed to Jesus as our sacrifice and great high priest. The Torah (Book of Moses) is not the Law of God but a background to WHY it was given. It was placed in the side of the “Ark of the Covenant” but not inside the Ark of the Covenant with the 10 commandments. The Torah or Book of Moses is complimentary to God’s Law but is not God’s Law.

This is getting into a complete new topic so will not spend much time here. Sabbath breaking does not become the “Mark of the Beast” until it becomes forced observance and people are made to bow down to it under law of punishment. It is interesting not many people know that these laws have already been enacted in the US. They are called Sunday Blue laws and are ready to be enacted very quickly if needed. You can read about them here (Wiki). I have never held the view that those that do not keep the Sabbath are unconverted. God’s Word tells us…

“And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.” (John 10:16) Jesus further tells us that….
“But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeks such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.” (John 4:23-24) This event is also further described in the book of Revelations (Revelations 18:1-5). My view is that God has his people in all Churches but there will be a time that his sheep will hear His voice and there shall be one shepherd and one fold of God’s followers who worship him in spirit and in truth. (see Rev 14:12) Shadows were touched on above so no need to comment here.

Yes absolutely! This is referring to the new covenant of God writing His Laws in our hearts by the operation of God. So we no longer try to keep God’s Laws by the works of the Law but by complete faith and dependence on the Word of God to do what it says. Jesus promises to create in us a new heart through His spirit so that His Laws are kept in us now because we love him. This is a free gift to all who come to Jesus not because we deserve but because he loved us and chose to die for us that whoever should believe on His should not perish but have everlasting life (Heb 8:10-12; John 3:16)

Well the 4[SUP]th[/SUP] Commandment 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Sabbath has never been a type or a shadow of things to come as highlighted earlier. This is because all the types and shadows highlighted in the Book of Moses (Torah; especially Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) where given to mankind after the fall of mankind. The 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Sabbath however was instituted before the fall of mankind. God blessed this day and made it a holy day before the fall of mankind (Genesis 2:1-3). For this reason it is impossible for the 7[SUP]th[/SUP] day Sabbath to be a type or a shadow of things to come.

The ceremonial Sabbath connected to Feast days of the Jewish calendar however have been fulfilled and were a shadow of things to come because they were connected to yearly feasts which pointed to the Lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world (John 1:28-36).

Hope this is helpful, I may not be on as much as I would like but will try and get on when I can sorry for any delays. Please forgive any typos I did not have much time to edit.

God bless you.

Regarding this verse that you quoted:

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.” (John 10:16)

I am aware that the Seventh Day Adventists consider themselves to be the true fold and converted non-SDAs to be the "other sheep" so they are claiming that we will join them in the end times as Sabbathkeepers submitting to them. Pretty funny since it's talking about Gentiles which were not being evangelized yet. How SDAs can distort Scripture like that reminds me of my days as an Armstrongite Judaizer. I had a multi colored wide margin Bible where I had written in how Herbert Armstrong and the church were going to fulfill Scriptures. It's called narcigesis...reading yourself or your organization into the scriptures.

Don't hold your breath because I'm not submitting to any Judaizers.

LoveGodForever · Jun 22, 2017

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Hi Sparkman and all,

Post 52 was really trying to show you that your interpretation on Col 2:16-17 does not harmonize with the rest of the Bible and my first other posts are showing that your interpretation of the TORAH is very narrow and this is where you have made your mistakes as this is where your building your whole foundation. If the foundation is not right how can your interpretation be correct? Here is some more scripture to consider in relation to Col 2:16-17 hope this is helpful my friend. Lots of scripture so take your time.

The Shadow Sabbaths of Colossians 2:17 continued with context....

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

What was nailed to the cross? Verse 13 states that those dead in their sinful flesh have been made alive by Christ who forgives all their sins. So in that context, verse 14 is clearly saying that the list of our trespasses, our sins, our breaking of the Ten Commandments is nailed to the cross. We are forgiven of all our sins at the cross. Verse 15 declares victory over the works of Satan and his fallen angels at the cross.

There are some who would point to Colossians 2:16 as evidence that today the Christian is released by God from observing any holy day what-so-ever, that the 10 Commandments themselves were nailed to the cross. The main reason they cite this verse is to show that there is no need for the "New Testament" Christian to observe the biblical Sabbath day (Saturday), and that anyone who does advocate Sabbath keeping is a legalist and an enemy of salvation by grace alone. Usually though, they do not quote verse 17, and rarely if ever do the explain the relevance of verse 17.

The passage should be considered as a complete sentence as follows:

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The Prophetic Shadow Sabbaths

Verse 17 is saying that the sabbath days referred to in verse 16 were "shadows" of things to come. So what does that mean?
Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
Heb 8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
Heb 8:3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
Heb 8:4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
Heb 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern showed to thee in the mount.
Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
Heb 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
Heb 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
Heb 10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

The law spoken of there is the ceremonial law, the yearly calendar connected with the symbolic sacrificial system of animal sacrifices, and offerings of food and drink at the Temple. As Heb 10:4 states, the animal sacrifices were incapable of taking away sins, and those sacrifices were offered repeatedly year by year (v. 1), according to the ceremonial law. These powerless sacrifices could only remind the sinner of their sin (v. 3). But the body of Christ is introduced in verse 5, which would be offered once to take away sins (v. 10). As verse 9 states, the first (ceremonial animal sacrifices) were taken away by the second, the sacrifice of Christ. So it is the ceremonial system of animal sacrifices and their associated shadow sabbaths that ended at the cross. That is also what Hebrews 9, cited above, is saying, that this reformation happened with the shedding of Christ's blood, providing the eternal redemption that was not possible by the animal sacrifices of the earthly (first) tabernacle.

Ezekiel refers to the ceremonial sacrificial offerings to be made at the tabernacle in a way nearly identical to Colossians:

Ezek 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.

Scripture makes a distinction between the ten commandments and ceremonial law, and speaks of the ceremonial law in the same way that Colossians 2:14 does:

Deu 4:13 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.
Deu 4:14 And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.
Deu 31:9 And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and unto all the elders of Israel.
Deu 31:10 And Moses commanded them, saying, At the end of every seven years, in the solemnity of the year of release, in the feast of tabernacles,
Deu 31:11 When all Israel is come to appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing.
..................
Deu 31:24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
Deu 31:25 That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
Deu 31:26 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

2 Chr 33:8 Neither will I any more remove the foot of Israel from out of the land which I have appointed for your fathers; so that they will take heed to do all that I have commanded them, according to the whole law and the statutes and the ordinances by the hand of Moses.
Note that the yearly ceremonial days are ordinances (statutes):
Num 9:12 They shall leave none of it unto the morning, nor break any bone of it: according to all the ordinances [H2708. chuqqah] of the passover they shall keep it.
....................
Num 9:14 And if a stranger shall sojourn among you, and will keep the passover unto the LORD; according to the ordinance [H2708. chuqqah] of the passover, and according to the manner thereof, so shall he do: ye shall have one ordinance, both for the stranger, and for him that was born in the land.

Lev 16:29 And this shall be a statute [H2708. chuqqah] for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you:
Lev 16:34 And this shall be an everlasting statute [H2708. chuqqah] unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the LORD commanded Moses.
Lev 23:39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.
Lev 23:40 And ye shall take you on the first day the boughs of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook; and ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days.
Lev 23:41 And ye shall keep it a feast unto the LORD seven days in the year. It shall be a statute [H2708. chuqqah] for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month.

The ceremonial law, the ordinances written by the hand of Moses in a book, was clearly distinct from the Ten Commandments, which were written by the finger of God on tables of stone. In Leviticus, Moses makes note of the fact that the yearly ceremonial sabbaths, instituted for the purpose of offerings and sacrifices, were separate and distinct from the weekly Sabbath:

Lev 23:37 These are the [yearly] feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations [sabbaths], to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, everything upon his day: [referred to in Col. 2:16-17]
Lev 23:38 Beside the [weekly seventh day] sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.
In other words, the yearly ceremonial sabbaths set forth in Leviticus 23 were distinct from, and in addition to, the seventh day weekly Sabbath of the Lord, particularly with respect to the fact that sacrifices were necessary in order to observe the symbolic ceremonial days.
1 Chr 23:31 And to offer all burnt sacrifices unto the LORD in the sabbaths, in the new moons, and on the set feasts, by number, according to the order commanded unto them, continually before the LORD:
2 Chr 35:6 So kill the passover, and sanctify yourselves, and prepare your brethren, that they may do according to the word of the LORD by the hand of Moses.

The yearly sabbaths were all set according to the new moons, which marked the beginning of the month. They were observed in the order and on the dates set by God at Sinai for the purpose of making sacrifices. The weekly seventh day Sabbath commandment is distinctive, in that it does not have any intrinsic requirement for sacrifices or burnt offerings (Exo. 20:8-11, Deut 5:12-15), and it is not set by the new moon.

Nehemiah also calls special attention to the seventh day Sabbath:

Neh 9:13 Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them from heaven, and gavest them right judgments, and true laws, good statutes and commandments:
Neh 9:14 And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:

The yearly ceremonial sabbaths that the Jews observed in connection with the Temple or Sanctuary were a shadow, or prophetic in nature, of future events. Every year the Jews were acting out the plan of salvation as demonstrated by the Temple sacrifices and ceremonies. The whole process was designed as a play of sorts, to explain to everyone the exact sequence of events in God's plan to redeem mankind. The focus of this plan, of course, is Jesus Christ in his role as the Lamb of God, as well as his role of High Priest or Mediator between God the Father and humanity.

It is essential that one have a basic understanding of the ceremonial calendar associated with the Hebrew Sanctuary. God intended the Sanctuary and it's services as an instructional tool to teach all people His plan of salvation, and I believe every Christian can benefit greatly from studying it. It has particular relevance near the end of time, because it lays out in detail the sequential process of events that God is using and will follow in the very near future.

In brief, these were the yearly ceremonial days observed and associated sabbaths.

Spring Calendar:

· Passover, The crucifixion, Jesus is God's Passover Lamb. (14 Nisan, not a Sabbath)
· Feast of Unleavened Bread (Pilgrimage to Jerusalem required for all men.) Putting away sin from one's life.
o Sabbath of 15 Nisan, 1st day of the feast.
o The Omer, first fruits of the barley harvest, 16 Nisan. Resurrection.
o Sabbath of 21 Nisan, 7th and last day of the feast.
· Feast of Weeks - Pentecost, a sabbath day 50 days after the Omer (Pilgrimage to Jerusalem required for all men.) Firstfruits of the wheat harvest. The outpouring of the Holy Spirit.
Fall Calendar:
· Trumpets, Sabbath of 1 Tishri, Announcement of impending judgment.
· Day of Atonement, Sabbath of 10 Tishri, The pre-Advent Judgment.
· Feast of Tabernacles (Pilgrimage to Jerusalem required for all men.) The ingathering of God's people - the second coming.
o Sabbath of 15 Tishri, 1st day of Tabernacles, freed from the bondage of sin.
o Sabbath of 22 Tishri, 8th and last day of Tabernacles.

Prior to the incarnation of Jesus and his crucifixion, all the above festivals awaited their fulfillment. They were what are called "types". They were symbolic of specific events yet to come. The event that is foretold is referred to as the "antitype". In the New Testament, the Greek words corresponding to type and antitype are:

G5179. tupos, too'-pos; from G5180; a die (as struck), i.e. (by impl.) a stamp or scar; by anal. a shape, i.e. a statue, (fig.) style or resemblance; spec. a sampler ("type"), i.e. a model (for imitation) or instance (for warning):--en- (ex-) ample, fashion, figure, form, manner, pattern, print.
G499. antitupon, an-teet'-oo-pon; neut. of a comp. of G473 and G5179; corresponding ["antitype"], i.e. a representative, counterpart:--(like) figure (whereunto).
The "shadow" or "type" itself had no substance, but rather pointed to a future event that would have substance, the "antitype". For example, slaying the Passover lamb is the type, the crucifixion of Jesus is the antitype.

God bless you will do a small add on to this....

LoveGodForever · Jun 22, 2017

Re: "TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

Continued from last post...........

The Memorial Seventh-day Sabbath

This is the distinction between the yearly ceremonial sabbaths and the Seventh-day Sabbath: obviously the Seventh-day Sabbath occurs on the last day of every week, but rather than being prophetic in nature, it is commemorative, a memorial to creation, established by God himself as scripture clearly tells us-
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Because it is only commemorative, and not a shadow of things to come, the weekly Seventh-day Sabbath is really not part of the discussion in Colossians 2:17. When this is understood, the weekly seventh-day Sabbath is clearly not a part of the prophetic sequence of events in the plan of salvation that are portrayed by the yearly ceremonial Sabbaths.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
1 Cor 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
1 Cor 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Paul is saying that the believing Christian need not keep the ceremonial laws, the shadow sabbaths, because they find fulfillment in faith in Jesus Christ, the true passover lamb. The schoolmaster was the yearly ceremonial sabbaths associated with the Hebrew Temple, which taught the plan of salvation through a coming Messiah, the passover lamb of God. Now that salvation through Jesus of Nazareth is clear to the Gentile church, there is no further need of the schoolmaster (the earthly Temple, its ceremonies and shadow sabbaths) because that lesson has been learned by those with faith. However, nowhere does the Bible indicate that one of the Ten Commandments has been abrogated, or that the disciples or Jesus abandoned the weekly Seventh-day Sabbath for Sunday keeping. Indeed the Bible makes clear, that in the future all believers will keep the true Seventh-day Sabbath-

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

God's Sabbath (Saturday) was never rescinded. It is eternal, intended as a constant reminder that we are created beings, responsible to our creator at the end of time. God's Sabbath was made in the creation week before mankind had sinned so can never be a shadow or type. The Seventh-day Sabbath will be kept in perpetuity by God's people because they are obedient and keep the commandments of God. This is particularly true as we near the end of time-

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus

Hope this helps the faithful Bereans...

God bless you my friends

"TORAH OBSERVER" "HEBREW ROOTS" "MESSIANIC JEW" INCONSISTENCIES

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