OT SHADOWS AND TYPES IN THE SABBATH/CLEAN MEAT LAWS - HOW JUDAIZERS MISS THE POINT

[sparkman]

I would like to recommend the book Shadows of Christ in the Law of Moses by Vern Poythress as well as Paradise Restored by David Chilton. Both of these books would be excellent in understanding the themes related to this thread.

"Judaizers" are individuals who claim that commandments relating to shadows and types of the Mosaic Covenant MUST be observed, and that non-observers are in sin, unsaved and/or spiritually inferior.

God had a purpose with ancient Israel, just like his purpose with mankind in general.

Mankind's purpose is declared in Genesis 1:26. Mankind was meant to be conformed to the image of God.

The Fall occurred, and mankind does not reflect that image accurately anymore. Salvation is largely about a restoration of the image of God (Christ) in mankind.

The entire scope of Scripture can be reduced to four phases: Creation, Fall, Rescue (Christ) and Restoration. This is called the "bookends" approach to understanding Scripture, as the progression is from Genesis 1-3 to Revelation 21-22.

The heavens, earth and mankind were created by God. Mankind was created in the image of God. He was meant to reflect God's nature, like a mirror reflects light, both individually and societally (in family and in community), like God, who is a Triune being and is by nature communal. He was placed in a tranquil, harmonious environment. He enjoyed fellowship with God, his fellow humans, was in harmony with nature, and his body was healthy. This is recorded in Genesis 1-2.

God allowed Satan to tempt mankind to test mankind's loyalty. Mankind fell into sin. The mirror became shattered, and mankind no longer reflects God's image, either individually or collectively. He is no longer in harmony with God (and is in fact under his wrath and condemnation), his fellow humans, nature, and his body is not healthy..it is subject to death. This is recorded in Genesis 3, as well as Romans 5. Mankind was cast outside of the "presence of God" in the Garden of Eden and barred from entering it again.

God didn't abandon mankind, though. God foreordained mankind's redemption through Jesus Christ and faith in his atoning sacrifice. Jesus came and dwelt among us as man and God. He was the tabernacle of God...the presence of God amongst mankind in human flesh. He atoned for us by his substitutionary death on the Cross. Jesus came to undo the work of the devil on the cross.

Those who believe are being restored to the image of God (Christ) now. They are to imitate God in their behavior. God is transforming them through the power of the Holy Spirit (and not self-effort) into a new creation. At the resurrection, which occurs at the return of Jesus, they receive resurrection bodies that are incorruptible and immortal. Additionally, God will dwell with resurrected mankind in a New Heavens and New Earth. This is recorded in Revelation 21-22.

Notice that restoration reverses the effects of the curse, and restores Paradise to earth...only it's a better and improved Paradise.

Read Genesis 1-3, Romans 5, and Revelation 21-22 with these themes in mind. Notice the language relating to the initial creation and fall in Revelation 21-22. You will see that this explanation is both simple and profound. It is a great view of Scripture at a high level, and is an excellent starting place to begin framing your understanding of Scripture.

Simple enough, but this explanation is a high-level view of the entirety of Scripture. It is an effective way to describe the main message of Scripture, as well as salvation. It is the approach that is used by "the Story" at Spreadtruth.com.

How does this relate to Judaizer views? God used Abraham and his descendants to prepare the way for Jesus. Ancient Israel was a type of the Church...only there was a big difference. Ancient Israel, as a whole, was not converted and did not have God's Holy Spirit. They dwelt in a state of mind that I characterize as two-dimensional. They didn't have the third dimension, which is the Holy Spirit.

The Mosaic Covenant was given with this in mind. It communicated spiritual truths in a manner that carnal, unspiritual men could comprehend at some level. This was meant, eventually, to prepare those of Christ's generation to understand the spiritual truths that were attached to them. Additionally, they were meant to help the remnant of faithful believers throughout Israel's history to understand these spiritual truths at some level.

The shadows and types were not the spiritual truths themselves, but they were a shadow of these truths.

The Sabbath and clean meat laws were part of these shadows. God said, be ye holy, for I am holy. God was proclaiming that mankind was supposed to imitate him. The Sabbath and clean meat laws were partly related to imitating God, as God worked six days and rested on one day. The clean meat laws relate to thinking holy thoughts, like God.

The shadows and types are not the reality, though. What would you think about a guy, who, after seven years of being separated from his wife, runs to her in the airport, and runs right past her, and instead, falls on the floor and kisses her shadow? Nonsense, right?

That's how Judaizers think. They kiss the shadow instead of embracing the reality. They don't understand that these things pointed to realities. And, part of the Sabbath's meaning relates to our need to imitate God in a spiritual sense. Same with the clean meat laws. We need to think holy thoughts like God thinks, and to be like him.

I am anticipating the response to this. Some Judaizers MIGHT condescend to agree with my points, but claim that the laws still must be observed. I will simply state that there are multiple Scriptures in the NT which say otherwise, including Acts 15, Ephesians 2:13-15, Romans 7:1-7, Hebrews 7-8, Galatians 3-4 and II Corinthians 3.

Anyways, you can choose to be a flat-faced Judaizer if you want, from getting your face smooshed into the ground trying to kiss the shadows. You can observe the shadows and types and get some value from their symbolism. Or, you can choose not to observe them, but try to understand their symbolism (which is my choice).

I think that this Creation, Fall, Rescue, Restoration view of Scripture really helps in understanding this symbolism, and I HIGHLY encourage you to read the two books I recommended. It will cut through a lot of the Judaizer nonsense that some are trying to teach here.

 

[sparkman]

Additionally, I will clearly state that I think Judaizers are either 1) deceived believers who belong to God or 2) deceived unbelievers who don't belong to God, and are only capable of thinking in the two-dimensional mode because they don't have the Holy Spirit. I suspect Judaizer leaders are in the second group for the most part.

I was in the first group as a Judaizer Armstrongite.

 

[sparkman]

Here's a good book on the Sabbath and clean meat laws:

All Foods are Clean--Every Day is the Sabbath

There's another book listed in my signature.

 

[Yonah]

well hey! lets throw out the bible and each of us write a book, that way we can bash others beliefs while proudly saying what we believe is right and others are less then what the Almighty has SAID we are.....

 

[sparkman]

Read Galatians 3 and 4 with this meme in mind...those who claim that others are sinning by not observing the Sabbath, festivals, clean meat laws and/or physical circumcision are like adults who insist that everyone must wear training wheels on their bikes.

These training wheels prepared the Jews for identifying Jesus as Messiah, and they served a purpose at one time. They can also be meaningful shadows and types.

However, insisting that others must observe shadows and types, or they are in sin, is like insisting everyone must wear training wheels on their bikes.

 

[sparkman]

well hey! lets throw out the bible and each of us write a book, that way we can bash others beliefs while proudly saying what we believe is right and others are less then what the Almighty has SAID we are.....

Now it comes out plainly..you do look down upon non-observers. Of course, I know that because you have already admitted you consider everyone else to be in sin...but I'm glad you said it straight out.

Show your contempt. I've been there, Yonah. I had the same mentality. Might as well be honest about it.

We're not under the Mosaic Covenant. Gentiles were never parties to it, and it's not in effect anyways. The signs of the covenant don't apply to us. No matter how much you try to pretend like they do.

And as I've noticed, every "Torah Observer" who claims they are observing Torah must realize that Torah cannot be in effect because there is no temple or tabernacle, and no Levitical priesthood. And, they don't go to Jerusalem for the festivals every year. The three pilgrimage festivals needed to be observed in Jerusalem, and any other place doesn't cut it.

Anyways I'm glad that you're honest about it so the members here know your contempt for non-observers. It's part and parcel of being a Judaizer.

And, lest people think I'm being sanctimonious in this regard..realize that many Judaizers consider their position to be "the truth". "I'm so glad I learned the truth" was a common phrase with the Armstrongites, and part of what they meant by "the truth" is observing the Sabbath and festivals, along with the whole package. I have seen "Torah observers" say the same thing..and SDAs, both former and current, have told me the same thing..that it is common to refer to the knowledge of Sabbathkeeping as "the truth", and how God called them into "the truth" in this regard.

I want non-observers to realize the mentality that is behind Judaizers' thoughts. Like I said, the local fellowship advertises "Truth over Tradition". And, they aren't unusual. They are simply more obvious about it than people with hidden agendas.

 

[sparkman]

Reading Scripture requires understanding CONTEXT.

I see Judaizers posting long lists of Scriptures supporting Sabbath observance, but do they every stop to consider CONTEXT?

If I quote Scriptures addressed to ancient Israel in this regard, in support of continued observance, it is nonsensical because the CONTEXT is the Mosaic Covenant. I am not a party to that covenant, nor was I ever a part to it.

Study hermeneutics. Hermeneutics relates to biblical interpretation. Obviously, in any writing, I must consider context when I read. I can't necessarily take something from a book that applies to SOMEONE ELSE and apply it to myself or EVERYONE ELSE. I have to consider the context.

Judaizers fail to consider that the Mosaic Covenant was written to ancient Israel, and it doesn't all apply to us. Additionally, ancient Israel wasn't even redeemed, and didn't have God's spirit. God taught them in shadows and types.

Read Deuteronomy 28-30. It is APPARENT that ancient Israel, as a whole, was not redeemed and didn't have God's Spirit. God said so, plainly, in these two chapters. These two chapters indicate that God would eventually give them the Spirit in some future period of time.

So, it makes as much sense for me to pull Scriptures relating to the Sabbath from the Mosaic Covenant and claim they still apply, as it does to pull Scriptures relating to physical circumcision and claim it still applies. In fact, similar Scriptures are used in regards to them. I have posted a comparison on this thread:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/117464-sabbath-circumcision-comparison.html

Same language is used. Look up the Scriptures in regards to this.

 

[gb9]

well hey! lets throw out the bible and each of us write a book, that way we can bash others beliefs while proudly saying what we believe is right and others are less then what the Almighty has SAID we are.....

well hey there! how about we rightly divide the Words of Truth, and understand the New Covenant is what we are now under, and that gentiles were never under the law.

 

[sparkman]

I should also clarify this..

With Judaizers, they consider Sunday observers as non-Sabbatarians. That 24 hour difference, in their theology, is CRUCIAL.

So, even if you are dedicating Sunday to pursuing God, or resting, you are not a Sabbathkeeper in their mind.

I suppose everyone understands that, but I may be assuming too much. It depends on how much you've been exposed to them.

Interwoven in this theology is typically an association with the Roman Catholic Church or Constantine, although some differ on their explanations regarding how Sunday observance came about. Their view of history in this regard is very distorted, and even SDA historian Samuele Bacchiocchi, who studied this issue in depth, acknowledges that the traditional SDA explanation in this regard is wrong. Virtually no Christian was observing the Sabbath by AD140.

 

[sparkman]

One thing that I find interesting is that the need to be physically circumcised is actually upheld by some Judaizers, despite CLEAR teachings in Scripture that it is not.

In order to make this assertion, they claim that Paul was discussing something other than physical circumcision in the sense of the circumcision required to enter the Mosaic Covenant. It's the same tactic they try with regards to the clear indications in Scripture that the Mosaic Covenant doesn't apply....instead, they indicate these verses are talking strictly about the Levitical Law or the Oral Law (halakh).

I have noted in another thread that the Oral Law (halakh), a parallel oral law that was allegedly given to Moses, didn't exist. Halakh is something that was claimed by Jews after the destruction of the Temple. Dr. Michael Brown has explained this well on a video. There was a set of interpretations called the "traditions of the elders" but it was not authoritative to start with, so that can't be what was taken away.

So, another tactic used by Judaizers is to redefine context or to redefine terms in order to explain away their inconsistencies.

See Acts 15, Hebrews 7-8, Ephesians 2:13-15, Galatians 3-4, Romans 7:1-6. II Corinthians 3. It's apparent what is being discussed is the Mosaic Covenant. Notice especially II Corinthians 3, which refers to "letters written on stone".

The Ten Commandments were emblematic of the entire covenant. They represented it like the flag represents our constitution.

I really like this video by Meno Kalisher on the Purpose of the Law. Meno is a Messianic Jew but he is not a Judaizer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-PstVcQ8oQ

I highly suggest watching it.

 

[sparkman]

Judaizers (as well as cultists) often think that they have a superior understanding of Scripture.

I alluded to two dimensions in my initial post. Those individuals might understand their two dimensions very well, but not the third dimension.

In my example, they may understand what the Mosaic Covenant says, but they don't understand the spiritual dimension. Yet, they will insist that they are the mature ones.

Pride, vanity, and autonomous thinking all play a part in this. It's a part of the fallen nature.

 

[garee]

I think it boils down to “how” we believe …or hear what the Spirit (not seen) says to us, the churches that determines if we have heard the voice of one unseen called the “hearing of faith” (Christ’s).If Christ has begun that good work working in us of hearing him he will finish it to the end.

Many I have witnessed simply say.. God does not need faith… and in doing usurp the authority of Him who is in us making the faith of God without effect. Having it (the faith of Christ) in respect to their own selves.

2Co 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

While I do believe that shadows and types used as parables hid the spiritual meaning from those who did not have the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit of God .Without parables Christ the word of God spoke not. This applies to the Old Testament saints as well as the new.

The Old Testament saints that were given the faith of Christ, the Holy Spirit of God as it worked in those to both will and do His good pleasure (imputed righteousness) of those who did have the Holy Spirit they understood by it (Christ’s faith)

Shadows and types were used to preach the gospel of Christ in respect to the suffering of Christ beforehand and the glory that did follow… the renting of the veil. The time of reformation had come the shadows were revealed for what they served.

The idea that the Holy Spirit was not given would make all the men on the other side of the cross dead in their trespasses and sin without hope and without God.

Receiving the end of your faith(That comes from hearing God) , even the salvation of your souls.Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time (reformation) the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it(the Holy Spirit) testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow1Pe 1:9

They as us did have the Holy Spirit . They by faith applying the law of interpretation found in 2 cor 4:18.... by that law looked ahead, We on this side of the cross look back to the same demonstration of the Lamb of God who was slain from the foundation of the world. The six days he did work

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the "things" which are seen, but at the "things" which are not seen the faith of Christ principle) for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

The Judaizers (worshippers of shadow) must ignore the time reformation has come. They would be the same one that would acknowledge the fifteenth century reformation but not that of the first century.

The law of faith that informs us that if any man regardless of time periods does not ave the Holy Spirit they simply have not been born again from above.

Able believed God and it was counted to him as imputed righteousness


Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[garee]

In order to make this assertion, they claim that Paul was discussing something other than physical circumcision in the sense of the circumcision required to enter the Mosaic Covenant. It's the same tactic they try with regards to the clear indications in Scripture that the Mosaic Covenant doesn't apply....instead, they indicate these verses are talking strictly about the Levitical Law or the Oral Law (halakh).

Physical as the seen the temporal used to reveal that not seen the eternal.Without parables the word of God speaks not
hiding the spiritual meaning from the lost... revealing it to His chhildren of faith.

It would seem more to glorifying their own flesh as an assumed witness they had the Holy Spirit... as if there was something we could perform outwardly as evidence one does have the Spirit of Christ inwardly.

When the time of reformation had come the ceremonial law (circumcision) as a shadow that pointed ahead to a suffering Savior and the glory that did follow did come.

The graves in respect to that representative glory of the Old testament saint was opened they came out and entered the New heavenly Jerusalem prepared as the bride of Christ, the church .

Circumcision like baptism, two Old Testament ceremonial laws in the end both pointed ahead to suffering savoir our bloody husband, Christ. We can as scripture defines the metaphor circumcision (cut off from the land of the living as a payment for our sins) we can see how that works out looking at the parable below.

And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:And I say unto thee, Let my son (representing Christ our husband) go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn.And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him.(Moses son)Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husbandart thou to me.So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art,(referring to Christ the first born of God) because of the circumcision. Exo 4:22

 

[Yonah]

well hey there! how about we rightly divide the Words of Truth, and understand the New Covenant is what we are now under, and that gentiles were never under the law.

ok then lets.... Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
read this carefully and then talk to me about this new covenant.... its ok we all operate on the understanding we have been given... and are able at that time in our walk to understand.

please also show me in all honesty that the OP isn't bashing others. there is a way to convey truth... and this thread.... is NOT it, check the motive of the heart, it will be revealed if we but ask, how about we each do our best to fully walk in what we really know and spend less time pointing out others faults in their theology, and love one another as he has loved us, what? do you not think the theology of the Sumaritan woman was not flawed? of course it was , yet our Dear Savior responded in love not maliciously bashing others beliefs, He spent 2 days sharing the words of life and bringing many to repentance and a saving knowledge of the truth. I myself have lots to learn from this, hope others will choose to take notice as well.

 

[Yonah]

Now it comes out plainly..you do look down upon non-observers. Of course, I know that because you have already admitted you consider everyone else to be in sin...but I'm glad you said it straight out.

Show your contempt. I've been there, Yonah. I had the same mentality. Might as well be honest about it.

We're not under the Mosaic Covenant. Gentiles were never parties to it, and it's not in effect anyways. The signs of the covenant don't apply to us. No matter how much you try to pretend like they do.

And as I've noticed, every "Torah Observer" who claims they are observing Torah must realize that Torah cannot be in effect because there is no temple or tabernacle, and no Levitical priesthood. And, they don't go to Jerusalem for the festivals every year. The three pilgrimage festivals needed to be observed in Jerusalem, and any other place doesn't cut it.

Anyways I'm glad that you're honest about it so the members here know your contempt for non-observers. It's part and parcel of being a Judaizer.

And, lest people think I'm being sanctimonious in this regard..realize that many Judaizers consider their position to be "the truth". "I'm so glad I learned the truth" was a common phrase with the Armstrongites, and part of what they meant by "the truth" is observing the Sabbath and festivals, along with the whole package. I have seen "Torah observers" say the same thing..and SDAs, both former and current, have told me the same thing..that it is common to refer to the knowledge of Sabbathkeeping as "the truth", and how God called them into "the truth" in this regard.

I want non-observers to realize the mentality that is behind Judaizers' thoughts. Like I said, the local fellowship advertises "Truth over Tradition". And, they aren't unusual. They are simply more obvious about it than people with hidden agendas.

no your wrong again, (your bitterness has blinded you) I council you to humble yourself before the Almighty, so I challenge you or anyone reading this post to please copy and paste any thing ive written that indicates I 'look down' on anyone.
and if anyone can produce such a statement from me complete and in context , I will give answer for it, I stand behind everything I write either here or in main chat... and this constant attack on others beliefs about the Sabbath and such serves no real purpose except it give you a format to spew the bitterness in your own heart, I council you to seek the face of the almighty, and seek his peace for your soul, pain and anger is a terrible thing to carry, no need for one to do so, He will take it from you if you but give it.....
but this continued behavior on your part is NOT bringing honor to the Name above all names and it only serves to cause more confusion and bondage, ask yourself this: whos work are you really doing?

 

[Issachar92]

Yonah are you Jewish?

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

Additionally, I will clearly state that I think Judaizers are either 1) deceived believers who belong to God or 2) deceived unbelievers who don't belong to God, and are only capable of thinking in the two-dimensional mode because they don't have the Holy Spirit. I suspect Judaizer leaders are in the second group for the most part.

Yours truly, was hindered by law keeping (post Regeneration, via irresistible grace ) as well.
But now, I live by the Faith of Christ in me. A sinner saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

This all began when the Father of lights lead me to Jesus Christ through reading the Scriptures and trusting/believing in Christ in young adulthood. This being outside any influence of man (human reasoning, denominational doctrines or theological concepts).

Many years later (in my early 30's), I was Regenerated around Passover, a few months prior to my 33rd birth date. (once again, outside of any religious denominational teachings or influence of man). I awoke out of my bed dancing before I was even fully awake from sleep....... Having tasted the "joy unspeakable".

That wonderful, life changing,saving,redeeming, and awe striking day, over 11 years ago, that brought me here looking for others with the same experience several years later, was the best and greatest day of my life.

Once again, today I live by faith and under grace, but in the past (even after Regeneration)under law.

I do not attend a earthly church house made of wood and stone, (non-denominational) but consider myself a member of Heavenly Zion, the church of the Firstborn of the Resurrection from the dead. Hebrews 12:22-24

Although some here on the grace side of the fence might imagine a Calvinistic theology and some on the Law side might think h-grace, Pentecostal, or some other Charismatic theology.......neither apply to my wonderful experiences and personal walk of faith.

I'm just a sinner saved by grace, who loves God our Father and Jesus Christ. I am eternally grateful for His mercy and love shown to me.

Having stated my personal testimony and experience, and being aware that the apostles and disciples such as James,Peter,Mary, and other sinners saved by grace who make up the body of the church Ephesians 4:4-16 (post Regeneration and post Pentecost) were hindered by law keeping. How does this jive with your statements and theological assessments above?

I suppose when hindered by law keeping after receiving the Holy Spirit, and while delighting in God's Law given to Moses during the development of our faith,....... we would fall into the category of "Judaizers" 1."deceived believers who belong to God" according to your assessment.
Howbeit, The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth, that leads us into all truth.

Does this mean that the law of Moses should be separate from the Scriptures as it pertains to Christianity?

Do we trust God and all the Scriptures 2 Timothy 3:16-17 and His work in the believer's life Philippians 1:6 or man's theology when it comes to our most precious faith?

Romans 14:10-13
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. 13Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

 

[sparkman]

Regarding criticisms leveled toward Judaizers, be aware that I'm not criticizing individuals who observe Sabbath, festivals, clean meat laws, or even physical circumcision (ouch) without claiming others are in sin.

The individuals I am criticizing are involved in criticizing non-observers, either overtly or in a subtle manner.

Judaizers want to snipe at non-observers but when their inconsistencies or lack of understanding is addressed, they often become combative or take the posture of the persecuted faithful ones.

I find this approach amusing. When Armstrongites heaved boulders at non-observers, they were gleeful, proclaiming themselves to be great defenders of the true faith. But, when they were called a cult, and justly so, they would paint themselves as the "persecuted little flock". Hilarious

Anyways, I am only engaged in criticizing individuals who claim non-observers are in sin for non-observance. No one else needs to feel offended.

 

[sparkman]

no your wrong again, (your bitterness has blinded you) I council you to humble yourself before the Almighty, so I challenge you or anyone reading this post to please copy and paste any thing ive written that indicates I 'look down' on anyone.
and if anyone can produce such a statement from me complete and in context , I will give answer for it, I stand behind everything I write either here or in main chat... and this constant attack on others beliefs about the Sabbath and such serves no real purpose except it give you a format to spew the bitterness in your own heart, I council you to seek the face of the almighty, and seek his peace for your soul, pain and anger is a terrible thing to carry, no need for one to do so, He will take it from you if you but give it.....
but this continued behavior on your part is NOT bringing honor to the Name above all names and it only serves to cause more confusion and bondage, ask yourself this: whos work are you really doing?

Yonah has made comments in the chat room that Reformed theology is Satanic, labeling a large number of Christians as being Satan's followers.

Additionally, he has pointed to denominationalism as being a proof that Christianity is off track..I am sure that he and his group, whatever it is, excludes themselves from that observation.


And, he has claimed that Christianity has drifted far away from the teachings of the early church. The subtle hint is that Messianics have the apostolic faith. It is a common claim amongst them. They claim they have the "ancient path", just like Armstrongites and other Judaizers.

He has stated that those who don't keep the Sabbath are sinning.

All this has been said in the chat room. It hasn't been said on the thread.

 

[sparkman]

Yours truly, was hindered by law keeping (post Regeneration, via irresistible grace ) as well.
But now, I live by the Faith of Christ in me. A sinner saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

This all began when the Father of lights lead me to Jesus Christ through reading the Scriptures and trusting/believing in Christ in young adulthood. This being outside any influence of man (human reasoning, denominational doctrines or theological concepts).

Many years later (in my early 30's), I was Regenerated around Passover, a few months prior to my 33rd birth date. (once again, outside of any religious denominational teachings or influence of man). I awoke out of my bed dancing before I was even fully awake from sleep....... Having tasted the "joy unspeakable".

That wonderful, life changing,saving,redeeming, and awe striking day, over 11 years ago, that brought me here looking for others with the same experience several years later, was the best and greatest day of my life.

Once again, today I live by faith and under grace, but in the past (even after Regeneration)under law.

I do not attend a earthly church house made of wood and stone, (non-denominational) but consider myself a member of Heavenly Zion, the church of the Firstborn of the Resurrection from the dead. Hebrews 12:22-24

Although some here on the grace side of the fence might imagine a Calvinistic theology and some on the Law side might think h-grace, Pentecostal, or some other Charismatic theology.......neither apply to my wonderful experiences and personal walk of faith.

I'm just a sinner saved by grace, who loves God our Father and Jesus Christ. I am eternally grateful for His mercy and love shown to me.

Having stated my personal testimony and experience, and being aware that the apostles and disciples such as James,Peter,Mary, and other sinners saved by grace who make up the body of the church Ephesians 4:4-16 (post Regeneration and post Pentecost) were hindered by law keeping. How does this jive with your statements and theological assessments above?

I suppose when hindered by law keeping after receiving the Holy Spirit, and while delighting in God's Law given to Moses during the development of our faith,....... we would fall into the category of "Judaizers" 1."deceived believers who belong to God" according to your assessment.
Howbeit, The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of truth, that leads us into all truth.

Does this mean that the law of Moses should be separate from the Scriptures as it pertains to Christianity?

Do we trust God and all the Scriptures 2 Timothy 3:16-17 and His work in the believer's life Philippians 1:6 or man's theology when it comes to our most precious faith?

Romans 14:10-13
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.12So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. 13Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

The Mosaic Covenant reflects an underlying "law"...moral and spiritual principles that are enduring. I do not disrespect the Mosaic Covenant. It is full of valid shadows and types, as well as enduring moral and spiritual principles.

My issue is with those who claim others are sinning for not observing the Sabbath, festivals, or clean meat laws, which are shadows and types of spiritual realities, and who seek to discredit the church in order to further the "Messianic" cause by claiming we are neo-pagans, etcetera. Anyone who claims the Mosaic Covenant is still in effect falls under anathema per Galatians, and others need to be warned against them.