OT SHADOWS AND TYPES IN THE SABBATH/CLEAN MEAT LAWS - HOW JUDAIZERS MISS THE POINT

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Feb 1, 2014
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#21
The only way anyone can observe the Mosaic Law/Covenant is if God rolls time back to a point before Christ's sacrifice when the Temple/tabernacle and Mosaic priesthood existed...otherwise they are simply blowing hot air...their claims are empty.

God made sure no one could make that claim by destroying the Temple and all the Levitical genealogical records that were in the Temple.

They only show their ignorance when they make this claim.

What they are doing is creating their own little patchwork quilt of works righteousness...and they aren't considering the WHOLE LAW. Scripture clearly teaches that they must obey ALL THE COMMANDMENTS.

It's impossible to fulfill the obligations, as there's no Levitical priesthood to accept their sacrifices, and no Temple/tabernacle to offer them at. And, they don't go to Jerusalem for the festivals either.

So, they can claim it all they want..it's hot air.

Another EXCELLENT book in this regard is Freedom In Christ by Meno Kalisher. I highly recommend it.

Read these Scriptures regarding the necessity of performing ALL THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE TORAH:

Deuteronomy 28:58-59
Deuteronomy 29:29
Deuteronomy 31:12-13
Deuteronomy 32:46
2 Chronicles 33:8
Galatians 3:10

I've already said this, but I am not embittered about my past. I will admit that it bothers me that someone like Yonah would claim I am following Satanic doctrine (Reformed theology). Like I've said, I am not double jointed, so I can't pat myself on my back for my salvation, and I am not blind, so I see the many Scriptures regarding God choosing, electing, predestining for salvation. But regardless of a person's view on that, it is a peripheral issue and doesn't change the number of people who come to faith. I'm not debating that issue with someone who hasn't studied it well enough to understand it, though, and he obviously hasn't if he can't even spell Calvinism. Most of my friends who are free-willers will acknowledge that Reformed theology has some valid points, whether they agree with it or not, and would not call it Satanic. Pope Yonah has spoken, though.
 
Feb 1, 2014
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#22
Just for the record, I ain't going to sing kumbaya with Judaizers who claim non observers are in sin. Period. Some have being preaching that to me. Paul didn't allow Judaizers to cause him to back down and neither will I.

I haven't done it in the past and I won't do it now. I know the harm in this belief system as I was taught it. And the other varieties of Judaizers are not much superior to Armstrongites. Same general attitude and teachings.

Those who hold the position that non observers are in sin need to be drug out into the light and others need to see what they are about, and the implications of the belief system. They would prefer to subtly infect their prey rather than to be drug out into the open so everyone can see what they are like behind the scenes.

The kumbaya crowd doesn't seem to realize that Judaizers are judging Christians of being in sin. If they don't make that judgment, they aren't Judaizers and I have no issue with them. If they do make that judgment, they are Judaizers and I have issues with them. And so does Scripture.
 
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Feb 1, 2014
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#23
Concerning unclean meats, Mark 7 is a good example of "shadows and types".

Judaizers will argue about this passage regarding the interpretation of Mark 7:19....they will say that Jesus did not cleanse all meats. There is some evidence that the parenthetical remark "thus he declared all foods clean" could be rendered in a manner that indicates that it is the intestines which purge all foods.

Regardless of that, though, verse 15 says this:

[SUP]15 [/SUP]There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him.”

In essence, Jesus said that nothing we eat defiles us in a spiritual sense, so it's not a spiritual issue. This is PLAIN. It is not ambiguous. Even a piece of dirt in food will not defile anyone.

And, what does unclean meat reduce to? Let it rot and it will turn to DIRT eventually.

Consult the original thread post for my explanation of the "bookends" approach. It mentions that the phases of God's work with mankind are Creation, Fall, Rescue (Jesus), and Restoration.

When Jesus was here on earth, part of his work was to reverse the works of the devil involved in the Fall and the resulting curse. Healings were a manifestation of that, as well as casting out demons. I believe reversing the unclean state of meat was also part of this. It was part of the "Restoration" which was breaking through during his lifetime.

Do I think Mark or the apostle he was writing for knew this at the time? No, I think the parenthetical remark was a later reflection as the Gospel was being written. I don't think Christ ate any unclean meat, because he fulfilled the Law and part of the Law involved the unclean laws. However, since he was God, he could have reversed the laws at that time..I don't know.

What I do know is that eating unclean things doesn't defile anyone spiritually. This is plainly stated in the Scriptures.

Additionally, the verses relate eating unclean things to immorality in terms of thought. Christ was showing us that the true meaning of the unclean laws related to moral purity. Unclean laws were a shadow or type of spiritual morality, and were not the spiritual reality themselves. God said "Be holy, as I am holy" (Leviticus 11:45). Israelites were given a teaching tool to learn that we are to be holy like God is holy. It isn't the reality; it is only a shadow or type that spirit-led believers can learn from. And Jesus elaborated on the true meaning when he talked about thoughts that defile us spiritually.

I will take the same approach with Acts 10 later. Acts 10 shows, after the resurrection, which is when the Mosaic Covenant ended, that "unclean animals" had been cleansed. Judaizers deny what Scripture plainly says in these verses. Acts 10 also illustrates one other thing...the Jews considered Gentiles unclean or spiritually defiled, in part, because of the food that they ate. The dream revealed two things; that the foods were no longer unclean and that the Gentiles, who ate them, were no longer unclean.

The purpose of the unclean laws related to physical separation between the Jews and the Gentiles. God gave some of the laws of the Mosaic Covenant to create a social barrier between Jews and Gentiles, so that idolatry would be avoided. And, food laws were a part of that. If you don't eat another's food, then social interaction is hindered, especially in the ancient world. Read Ephesians 2:13-15 in this light.

I am speaking to spiritual people and not trying to change the hearts of Judaizers. I doubt if they will listen, but the information might be helpful for seekers, and it may help them to avoid their false doctrines.

Consider this too..Paul used an example of the unclean laws in II Corinthians 6:14ff. He related one spiritual application to a situation where believers were apparently dining with nonbelievers in a pagan temple. Pagan temples often had a separate room where trade guild members held fellowship meetings. Believers were sharing with them in their revelries within the temples. Paul said to come out from amongst them and be separate from them, and touch no unclean thing (verse 17). So, in essence, he was applying the intention of unclean laws to a situation where they were being compromised morally by their fellowship with unbelievers.

Instead of seeing spiritual realities, though, the Judaizer sees only the two dimensions rather than the three dimensions. They do not apply the spiritual intention, but only the shadow God gave ancient Israel for illustration. They don't understand that the true intention was moral filthiness and not about meats.

Sometimes they will try to make this into a health issue as well. There may be some collateral health benefits. I personally think that a lot of the alleged health benefits are bogus. Okinawans have eaten pork for centuries and they have one of the longest lifespans on earth. My understanding is that there is a MILD immune response when pork is consumed without being subjected to marinades but it's not a big deal. However, the health issues are irrelevant to whether it is a sin or not.

Judaizers will quote Isaiah 66:17 to indicate that those who eat pork will be consumed at Christ's return. So, they make it into a moral issue. Note that this verse refers to pagan ritualistic idolatrous practices, and not just eating pork. Additionally, Isaiah was addressed to Jews, who were under the Mosaic Covenant, prior to the Babylonian captivity. Christians are not under the Mosaic Covenant despite the claims of Judaizers, and therefore the unclean meat laws don't apply to them. Additionally, Christians are not engaged in pagan idolatry, although the Judaizer begs to differ because often they claim we are neo-pagans. Finally, my position is that the OT prophets, when seeing events occurring in the future, saw them through the "spectacles" of the Mosaic Covenant, and that the vision needs to be viewed in this light. For instance, the consumption of swine's flesh relates to spiritual impurity, rather than eating swine's flesh literally. The unclean laws were a shadow of spiritual impurity, not the spiritual impurity itself.

At any rate, as I've indicated in the initial post, the Mosaic Covenant isn't in effect, and Gentiles were never a part of this covenant.

I intend on continuing to explore similar Scriptures in the future as I have time.


[SUP]


[/SUP]

I don't care what Mark 7:19 says personally..it is irrelevant to the discussion.

Mark 7: 7 Now when the Pharisees gathered to him, with some of the scribes who had come from Jerusalem, [SUP]2 [/SUP]they saw that some of his disciples ate with hands that were defiled, that is, unwashed. [SUP]3 [/SUP](For the Pharisees and all the Jews do not eat unless they wash their hands properly,[SUP][a][/SUP] holding to the tradition of the elders, [SUP]4 [/SUP]and when they come from the marketplace, they do not eat unless they wash.[SUP][b][/SUP] And there are many other traditions that they observe, such as the washing of cups and pots and copper vessels and dining couches.[SUP][c][/SUP]) [SUP]5 [/SUP]And the Pharisees and the scribes asked him, “Why do your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat with defiled hands?” [SUP]6 [/SUP]And he said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written,
“‘This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]in vain do they worship me,
teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’

[SUP]8 [/SUP]You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men.”
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition! [SUP]10 [/SUP]For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ [SUP]11 [/SUP]But you say, ‘If a man tells his father or his mother, “Whatever you would have gained from me is Corban”’ (that is, given to God)[SUP][d][/SUP]— [SUP]12 [/SUP]then you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or mother, [SUP]13 [/SUP]thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And many such things you do.”
[h=3]What Defiles a Person[/h][SUP]14 [/SUP]And he called the people to him again and said to them, “Hear me, all of you, and understand: [SUP]15 [/SUP]There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him.”[SUP][e][/SUP] [SUP]17 [/SUP]And when he had entered the house and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And he said to them, “Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, [SUP]19 [/SUP]since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?”[SUP][f][/SUP] (Thus he declared all foods clean.) [SUP]20 [/SUP]And he said, “What comes out of a person is what defiles him. [SUP]21 [/SUP]For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, [SUP]22 [/SUP]coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. [SUP]23 [/SUP]All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”
 

breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
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#24
Yonah has made comments in the chat room that Reformed theology is Satanic, labeling a large number of Christians as being Satan's followers.

Additionally, he has pointed to denominationalism as being a proof that Christianity is off track..I am sure that he and his group, whatever it is, excludes themselves from that observation.


And, he has claimed that Christianity has drifted far away from the teachings of the early church. The subtle hint is that Messianics have the apostolic faith. It is a common claim amongst them. They claim they have the "ancient path", just like Armstrongites and other Judaizers.

He has stated that those who don't keep the Sabbath are sinning.

All this has been said in the chat room. It hasn't been said on the thread.
I'm in agreement with you on these things in this thread, especially the post I liked above but you don't need to engage in what Yonah has previously said, it's all hearsay anyway.
Keep yourself on track and don't worry about the opposition.
 
Feb 1, 2014
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#25
I'm in agreement with you on these things in this thread, especially the post I liked above but you don't need to engage in what Yonah has previously said, it's all hearsay anyway.
Keep yourself on track and don't worry about the opposition.
Yeah..I think I'm just going to drop the Yonah thing.

It isn't heresay though. I've heard his remarks over time. One came from a trusted source, and I verified it with Yonah. It is hearsay to you guys though and is useless to bring it up here.

But, arguing with a man who is set in his ways and his opinions is useless. Thanks for the remarks. I'm just going to ignore him from now on. I am concerned with younger seekers and not older men who have had decades to learn better.

It's not like I seek my approval from men anyways..it's irrelevant what he thinks.
 
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Feb 1, 2014
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#26
Here's a few things I find interesting...regarding my remarks that the clean/unclean laws actually were shadows or types of holiness/unholiness and becoming like God....

In my observance of "Torah observers", they would strongly insist that the unclean meat laws apply...but one individual was very casual with their language, using the "F" word in the conversation...another was living with a girlfriend and advised another chatter that it was ok..and another thinks being legally married to his "spouse" is unnecessary, probably due to his demonstrated antagonism toward man's government.

So, I find it odd that people who believe God cares about food laws demonstrate moral filthiness. I mean, we all do at some level, but promoting it is a different story...well, I suppose the person who used the "F" word wasn't promoting it but the other two individuals were promoting sexual immorality.
 

Zen

Senior Member
Sep 11, 2015
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#27
The Sabbath and clean meat laws were part of these shadows. God said, be ye holy, for I am holy. God was proclaiming that mankind was supposed to imitate him. The Sabbath and clean meat laws were partly related to imitating God, as God worked six days and rested on one day. The clean meat laws relate to thinking holy thoughts, like God.
Here's the problem with your theory, God did not say that the sabbath is no longer holy but did say that He cleaned the animals that Israelites could not eat. If God keeps the sabbath holy, and you say we are intended to imitate God, how can we do that by not observing the sabbath?

To expand on this point, the forbidden meats was an ordinance, i.e. the Israelite camp in the wilderness which had men as priest. Lord Jesus is now our priest, He cleaned those creatures.

Acts 10:[SUP]15 [/SUP]And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

Further evidence against your theory:

43 Bible results for “the sabbath day” in the New Testament.

Matthew 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Keeping the sabbath is in the same list of commandments as not taking the Lord's name in vain.

There is no such scripture which says the sabbath no longer exists or is no longer hallowed.
 
Jun 5, 2017
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#28
Here's the problem with your theory, God did not say that the sabbath is no longer holy but did say that He cleaned the animals that Israelites could not eat. If God keeps the sabbath holy, and you say we are intended to imitate God, how can we do that by not observing the sabbath?

To expand on this point, the forbidden meats was an ordinance, i.e. the Israelite camp in the wilderness which had men as priest. Lord Jesus is now our priest, He cleaned those creatures.

Acts 10:[SUP]15 [/SUP]And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

Further evidence against your theory:

43 Bible results for “the sabbath day” in the New Testament.

Matthew 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Keeping the sabbath is in the same list of commandments as not taking the Lord's name in vain.

There is no such scripture which says the sabbath no longer exists or is no longer hallowed.
Hi Zen,

I would not worry about this thread too much. This same guy tried to make the same thread on the same topic somewhere else. As soon as people started challenging him with the scriptures from the Word of God he abandoned that thread and started this one on the same subjects. He clearly has an agenda and is not interested in sharing God's Word with anyone whatsoever. Check the other thread and have a look there at His responses when people share the Word of God with him. You may be better off leaving it between him and God as all of us will be held accountable to God for our actions and will need to answer to Him in the day of God's Judgement.

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinks in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. (Heb 6:4-8)

God bless you
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#29
Question: "Who were the Judaizers?"

Answer: There have always been those who balk at the idea of God’s salvation being offered freely to those who believe. They reason that such a grand gift as forgiveness from such a holy God must require some kind of payment from us. We thank God for His grace, but we understand that He expects us to somehow earn that grace—in other words, there must be something that we can do to pay off the debt we owe to God.

In the early church, those who taught a combination of God’s grace and human effort were called “Judaizers.” The word Judaizer comes from a Greek verb meaning “to live according to Jewish customs.” The word appears in
Galatians 2:14 where Paul describes how he confronted Peter for forcing Gentile Christians to “Judaize.”

A Judaizer taught that, in order for a Christian to truly be right with God, he must conform to the Mosaic Law. Circumcision, especially, was promoted as necessary for salvation. Gentiles had to become Jewish proselytes first, and then they could come to Christ.

The doctrine of the Judaizers was a mixture of grace (through Christ) and works (through the keeping of the Law). This false doctrine was dealt with in
Acts 15 and strongly condemned in the book of Galatians.

At the Jerusalem Council in
Acts 15, a group of Judaizers opposed Paul and Barnabas. Some men who belonged to the party of the Pharisees insisted that Gentiles could not be saved unless they were first circumcised and obeyed the Law of Moses.

Paul made the case that, in Christ, there was no longer any distinction between Jew and Gentile, for God had purified the hearts of the Gentiles by faith (
Acts 15:8–9).

He said it plainly in
Galatians 2:16: “A man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.”

To add anything to the work that Christ did for salvation is to negate God’s grace. We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, not by returning to the Law. “I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing” (
Galatians 2:21).

There are many groups today with beliefs/practices very similar to the Judaizers of the New Testament. The two most prominent would be the
Hebrew Roots Movement and the Roman Catholic Church.

The teachings of the Hebrew Roots Movement are virtually identical to those of the Judaizers whom Paul rebuked in Galatians. A primary focus of the Hebrew Roots Movement is to put followers of Christ back under the bondage of the Old Testament Law.

The Roman Catholic Church teaches a doctrine similar to that of the Judaizers of the New Testament in this way: its doctrine is a mixture of law and grace. At the Council of Trent in the 16th century, the Catholic Church explicitly denied the idea of salvation by faith alone.

Catholics have always held that certain sacraments are necessary for salvation. The issues for the 1st-century Judaizers were circumcision and Sabbath-keeping.

The issues for modern-day Catholics are baptism, confession, etc. The works considered necessary may have changed, but both Judaizers and Catholics attempt to merit God’s grace through the performance of ritualistic acts.

The Judaizers upheld the Mosaic Law as necessary for salvation; Catholics uphold man-made tradition as necessary; both view Christ’s death as being insufficient without the active and continued cooperation of the one being saved.

The Bible is clear that the attempt to add human works to God’s grace overlooks the very meaning of grace, which is “undeserved blessing.” As Paul says, “If by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace” (
Romans 11:6). Praise the Lord, “Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery” (Galatians 5:1).

https://gotquestions.org/Judaizers.html


I do not look at all Hebrew Roots and Sabbath observers as all being the same. As I have said before - there are many that are of authentic Jewish descent and they like their traditions but they do not say that others need to observe the Sabbath or feasts as in the law of Moses or you are dis-obeying God and sinning.

They observe these things to see Christ as the fulfillment of them - not as something they "need" to do now.

This group has excellent teachings on how Christ has fulfilled the Law and show Christ in every part of the Old Testament. Jesus said that all the scriptures speak about Him.

This group of believers are a major blessing to us in the body of Christ and are not Judaizers such as Paul encountered and that are also in the extreme sects of Hebrew Roots and Sabbath Keepers that say believers in Christ must "observe the Sabbath and the feasts like in the law of Moses - or they are dis-obeying God and sinning".

Those - run away from as fast as you can! - but do not put all Hebrew Roots people in the same boat as the extreme sects because they are not the same.
 

Zen

Senior Member
Sep 11, 2015
752
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#30
Hi Zen,

I would not worry about this thread too much. This same guy tried to make the same thread on the same topic somewhere else. As soon as people started challenging him with the scriptures from the Word of God he abandoned that thread and started this one on the same subjects. He clearly has an agenda and is not interested in sharing God's Word with anyone whatsoever. Check the other thread and have a look there at His responses when people share the Word of God with him. You may be better off leaving it between him and God as all of us will be held accountable to God for our actions and will need to answer to Him in the day of God's Judgement.

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. For the earth which drinks in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and brings forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which bears thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. (Heb 6:4-8)

God bless you
May God bless you too, your whole family, friends and peace to everyone in this thread.

God knows that OP wants people to enjoy the fullness of God's grace and not to cling to shadows so I won't condemn or judge that he's going to be punished. But as far as my own experience as being a relatively new christian, God has blessed me in the sabbaths, given me peaceful days. I'd rather be poor than go after a job that paid very well and required me to work on the sabbath.

When I first was told about the sabbath I was in to the Hebrew roots stuff. I was sitting in the dark at 9:30pm trying to read the bible lol because the information I had was from so-called Jews who said you're not allowed to turn on light bulbs or light candles or that you have to do it before the sabbath.

But then God shared with me a revelation about eating animals that God cleaned and I know the feasts are shadows. I simply don't see anyone being able to justify why one of the 10 commandments is now not required. But God said we aren't to judge people for their religion, it's up to that person.
 
Nov 22, 2015
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#31
If Paul is telling us the truth when he says the Christian is not under the Law but under grace now, has died to the Law, is released from the Law.

And - Yes....the 10 commandments are in the law as Paul shows in Rom. 7:7 - unless "coveting" got kicked out of the 10 for getting caught "coveting'.


( Which I do believe he is telling us the truth ). - Then how is our relationship to be to the law in regards to the "good" that is in the ten commandments from the Old Covenant?

Live "from" the 10 promises instead of "by" the 10 commandments because we are now in Christ in the New Covenant. It's in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and the grace of God which manifests His life in and through us that we live by now.

1) When you know Me ( Jesus ) and I live in you, you will have no need for other gods because you have a loving Father who loves you deeply and unconditionally.

2) When you know Me ( Jesus ) ,and I live in you the idols in life will fade like mist in the sun.

3) When you know Me ( Jesus ) and I live in you, you will never stop speaking My name to establish freedom - My name is Jesus.

4) When you know Me ( Jesus ) and I live in you, you will cease from your own works and rely totally on what I have already done for you and find true Sabbath rest in Me
.

5) When you know Me ( Jesus ) and I live in you, you will be honored as fathers and mothers to nations.

6) When you know Me ( Jesus ) and I live in you,you will restore life.

7) When you know Me ( Jesus ) and I live in you, you will experience deep authentic relationships which you will treasure.

8) When you know Me ( Jesus ) ,and I live in youyou will be established in abundance and generosity.

9) When you know Me ( Jesus ) ,and I live in youyou will be My witness.

10) When you know Me ( Jesus ) and I live in you, your love which is My love flowing in and through you for your neighbor will bring restoration to this world.

The 10 commandments are now 10 promises fulfilled in us through relationship with our loving Father because we are in Christ and the fruit of His life being manifested in and through us.
 
Sep 6, 2014
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#32
If Paul is telling us the truth when he says the Christian is not under the Law but under grace now, has died to the Law, is released from the Law.

And - Yes....the 10 commandments are in the law as Paul shows in Rom. 7:7 - unless "coveting" got kicked out of the 10 for getting caught "coveting'.


( Which I do believe he is telling us the truth ). - Then how is our relationship to be to the law in regards to the "good" that is in the ten commandments from the Old Covenant?

Live "from" the 10 promises instead of "by" the 10 commandments because we are now in Christ in the New Covenant. It's in the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and the grace of God which manifests His life in and through us that we live by now.

1) When you know Me ( Jesus ) and I live in you, you will have no need for other gods because you have a loving Father who loves you deeply and unconditionally.

2) When you know Me ( Jesus ) ,and I live in you the idols in life will fade like mist in the sun.

3) When you know Me ( Jesus ) and I live in you, you will never stop speaking My name to establish freedom - My name is Jesus.

4) When you know Me ( Jesus ) and I live in you, you will cease from your own works and rely totally on what I have already done for you and find true Sabbath rest in Me
.

5) When you know Me ( Jesus ) and I live in you, you will be honored as fathers and mothers to nations.

6) When you know Me ( Jesus ) and I live in you,you will restore life.

7) When you know Me ( Jesus ) and I live in you, you will experience deep authentic relationships which you will treasure.

8) When you know Me ( Jesus ) ,and I live in youyou will be established in abundance and generosity.

9) When you know Me ( Jesus ) ,and I live in youyou will be My witness.

10) When you know Me ( Jesus ) and I live in you, your love which is My love flowing in and through you for your neighbor will bring restoration to this world.

The 10 commandments are now 10 promises fulfilled in us through relationship with our loving Father because we are in Christ and the fruit of His life being manifested in and through us.
Bruce...
Don't tempt me to get that parrot video Bro!!! :mad:
 
Feb 1, 2014
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#33
Here's the problem with your theory, God did not say that the sabbath is no longer holy but did say that He cleaned the animals that Israelites could not eat. If God keeps the sabbath holy, and you say we are intended to imitate God, how can we do that by not observing the sabbath?

To expand on this point, the forbidden meats was an ordinance, i.e. the Israelite camp in the wilderness which had men as priest. Lord Jesus is now our priest, He cleaned those creatures.

Acts 10:[SUP]15 [/SUP]And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

Further evidence against your theory:

43 Bible results for “the sabbath day” in the New Testament.

Matthew 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Keeping the sabbath is in the same list of commandments as not taking the Lord's name in vain.

There is no such scripture which says the sabbath no longer exists or is no longer hallowed.
Despite Seventh Day Adventist claims Colossians 2:16-17 includes the weekly Sabbath in the shadows and types category. I explained that earlier...possibly on the thread about Judaizer inconsistencies.

Jesus and faith in Him constitutes the rest that the Sabbath pointed to. It was a redemptive type like the Promised Land. See Matthew 11:28-30 and Hebrews 3-4. Hebrews 3-4 lists various redemptive types.

God "ceased" creating. The word "rest" in Hebrew infers that he stopped creating ex nihilo. Additionally there is no indication manly needed rested; only God. The word Sabbath isn't mentioned until Exodus 16 when God began working with Israel.

My main point is this, though...God gave the Sabbath to Israel as one of a set of commandments meant to teach them that they were to imitate God. The commandment was a shadow or type pointing to that but the Sabbath itself was not the main issue...being like God in a moral spiritual manner was. Same with the clean/unclean laws. Mankind is meant to reflect the image of God.

And...God doesn't keep the Sabbath. Read John 5. Jesus said that he and the Father work continually. The Jews knew that God didn't keep the Sabbath. God upholds the universe every day all the time...he upholds the universe constantly.

I know the explanation Sabbathkeepers try to use to get past John 5 but they are faulty. Jesus is YHVH and he never stopped being YHVH during the Incarnation. The hypostatic union teaches that Jesus remained God while man.

Anyways the point of the clean/unclean laws as well as the Sabbath is that mankind is to reflect Gods image in a moral sense but the specific application given to Israel in terms of days and meats or any other clean or unclean laws are not applicable. Romans 14 and Colossians 2:16-17 provide support for this.

By the way I was a Judaizer for over a decade so I doubt there's any argument that could be presented that I haven't considered.
 
Feb 1, 2014
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#34
Regarding LoveGodForever's claim I began another thread because it's a different subject. He posted a list of 100 reasons why the Sabbath applies knowing that no one is going to take the time to answer all of them even if they are easily refutable.

But since he is here maybe he can explain to me why SDA health care facilities do abortions for elective reasons while loudly proclaiming the Sabbath applies they think it is fine to hack babies to death in the womb. And, if I eat a steak tonight is it going to cause me to be sexually immoral? How about hot cereal..can I eat that without getting sexually excited? And, what races of men resemble animals due to amalgamation (men breeding with animals)? These are all things your prophetess claimed. I think that rock that bounced off her head as a child was her inspiration, not the Holy Spirit. :) oh..and don't eat katchup or spices or cheese...they're really bad for you according to her.
 
Feb 1, 2014
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#35
May God bless you too, your whole family, friends and peace to everyone in this thread.

God knows that OP wants people to enjoy the fullness of God's grace and not to cling to shadows so I won't condemn or judge that he's going to be punished. But as far as my own experience as being a relatively new christian, God has blessed me in the sabbaths, given me peaceful days. I'd rather be poor than go after a job that paid very well and required me to work on the sabbath.

When I first was told about the sabbath I was in to the Hebrew roots stuff. I was sitting in the dark at 9:30pm trying to read the bible lol because the information I had was from so-called Jews who said you're not allowed to turn on light bulbs or light candles or that you have to do it before the sabbath.

But then God shared with me a revelation about eating animals that God cleaned and I know the feasts are shadows. I simply don't see anyone being able to justify why one of the 10 commandments is now not required. But God said we aren't to judge people for their religion, it's up to that person.
Regarding observing a day it's your business per Romans 14. I have said over and over again in the 3 years I've been here that I have no issue with observers except for Judaizers who claim non observers are in sin. In fact I would attend a Christ centered observant church that wasnt a Judaizer church that accuses non observers of being in sin. I would not attend a Seventh Day Adventist church because they are kooks. They claim the atonement is not finished as well as being ok with abortion.

One thing that's interesting is that you think the Sabbath applies but not the festivals and clean meat laws. I see no justification for that view. The Seventh Day Adventist reasoning in that regard is faulty so it would be interesting to hear your reasoning.
 
Feb 1, 2014
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#36
May God bless you too, your whole family, friends and peace to everyone in this thread.

God knows that OP wants people to enjoy the fullness of God's grace and not to cling to shadows so I won't condemn or judge that he's going to be punished. But as far as my own experience as being a relatively new christian, God has blessed me in the sabbaths, given me peaceful days. I'd rather be poor than go after a job that paid very well and required me to work on the sabbath.

When I first was told about the sabbath I was in to the Hebrew roots stuff. I was sitting in the dark at 9:30pm trying to read the bible lol because the information I had was from so-called Jews who said you're not allowed to turn on light bulbs or light candles or that you have to do it before the sabbath.

But then God shared with me a revelation about eating animals that God cleaned and I know the feasts are shadows. I simply don't see anyone being able to justify why one of the 10 commandments is now not required. But God said we aren't to judge people for their religion, it's up to that person.
Heres the problem with splitting the Ten Commandments from the "Book of the Covenant" :

One, the wording of the Ten Commandments is not generic like some claim so it is not all encompassing in terms of defining sin. For instance, the commandment against adultery isn't generic; sexual immorality is generic but the Hebrew reflects adultery. Two, bearing false witness is a specific form of lying in a courtroom environment whereas there is language in Hebrew to describe lying so I don't think the language was meant to be generic.

Additionally almost no one uses the Ten Commandments alone to define sin. Getting drunk is condemned in Scripture but doesn't fit under any of the Ten Commandments. While SDAs claim lip service to this breakdown in reality they pick and choose what they want from the Book of the Covenant as well as claiming drinking any alcohol is sin.

In contrast my view is coherent. The Mosaic Covenant was a "basket" of Commandments, some of which were shadows and types and some of which reflected moral and spiritual principles. These commandments cannot be divided out in the way that SDAs allegedly say they do (and they don't follow their own hermeneutics because there are elements of the Book of the Covenant they affirm as sin). Additionally there are sins like drunkenness that do not fit in any way under the Ten Commandments. So that approach is incoherent.

Being led by the Holy Spirit with a Scripturally informed conscience is coherent though. God writes his laws on our hearts. It is no accident that the Holy Spirit is mentioned in Galatians 5:17ff after Paul addresses the Galatians heretics.
 
Feb 1, 2014
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#37
I think the biggest challenge with Judaizers is that the Holy Spirit may not be operative. The New Covenant involves God writing his laws on our hearts so we know right and wrong because of the new nature. However Judaizers look to the Mosaic Law, given to fleshly men, and the letter, for their guidance. And, the Mosaic Law did have underlying spiritual and moral principles reflected in the specific applications but Judaizers seem to fixate on the specific applications, or they mistake the shadows and types for enduring moral principles. Like fixating on the clean/unclean meat laws rather than the morality/immorality they pointed to.
 
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#38
no your wrong again, (your bitterness has blinded you) I council you to humble yourself before the Almighty, so I challenge you or anyone reading this post to please copy and paste any thing ive written that indicates I 'look down' on anyone.
and if anyone can produce such a statement from me complete and in context , I will give answer for it, I stand behind everything I write either here or in main chat... and this constant attack on others beliefs about the Sabbath and such serves no real purpose except it give you a format to spew the bitterness in your own heart, I council you to seek the face of the almighty, and seek his peace for your soul, pain and anger is a terrible thing to carry, no need for one to do so, He will take it from you if you but give it.....
but this continued behavior on your part is NOT bringing honor to the Name above all names and it only serves to cause more confusion and bondage, ask yourself this: whos work are you really doing?
Why are you implying I am doing Satans work? Whose work were you doing when you claimed Michelle Obama is really a guy? Don't take the moral high ground with me. Was hatred or love motivating you when you said that? Where's the proof? If I'm not mistaken you said you had proof.
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
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#39
Take note those who read this that the ones who suggest the Sabbath is not meant to be kept can not and will not address the OT/Old Testament concerning this issue.

Jesus the Apostles and every New Testament writer backed up their teaching with quotes and references from the OT. Don't take my word for it go check it our yourself to see if its true or not.

These guys have never been able to do the same and thus manipulate the NT but can not shew it from the OT. Don't take my word for it check their posts and see how they have never been able to shew from the OT the first witness that their position is from God.

They ignore posts that challenge them on this because they know they can't provide evidence for their position in the OT.

They give Supposed evidence form the NT for their position because they don't know the OT. For example Col 2 where they say and this thread has claimed that the 7th day Sabbath is just a shadow. Here it is:

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

They will use this as proof that the Sabbath was just a shadow but what they will not tell you is that there are multiple Sabbaths in the OT.

The 7th day Sabbath and then the Sabbaths that were attached to the yearly sacrificial festivals.

One came in Gen 2 in connection with creation a finished work of God before sin came into the world in chapter 3.

The others instituted after sin came into the word connected to the sanctuary service in regards to salvation.

Jesus came to deal with sin not his perfect work before sin. Don't take my word for it read it yourself.

The reason they so abuse the NT is because they are unlearned not knowing the OT and not following the example of the NT writers who proved everything with a thus saith the lord otherwise known as the OT.

Again this if for those who are interested and are like the noble Bereans

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Ps the scriptures they searched was the OT, no NT at the time. They checked the OT to test if what Paul was teaching was true or not. Do the same for these on this site and you will find they have no substance to their arguments.

I don't say this to insult them, I know they are doing what they think is right, Yet they remain willingly ignorant when they have had this pointed out over and over again. And while they can not go against it nor deny it and yet still can not do as the NT writers did and prove their position from the OT scriptures, they continue to spread the teachings of men.

Be aware and again don't take my word for it check it out yourself to see if what I am saying is true.
 

beta

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
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#40
Here's the problem with your theory, God did not say that the sabbath is no longer holy but did say that He cleaned the animals that Israelites could not eat. If God keeps the sabbath holy, and you say we are intended to imitate God, how can we do that by not observing the sabbath?

To expand on this point, the forbidden meats was an ordinance, i.e. the Israelite camp in the wilderness which had men as priest. Lord Jesus is now our priest, He cleaned those creatures.

Acts 10:[SUP]15 [/SUP]And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

Further evidence against your theory:

43 Bible results for “the sabbath day” in the New Testament.

Matthew 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Keeping the sabbath is in the same list of commandments as not taking the Lord's name in vain.

There is no such scripture which says the sabbath no longer exists or is no longer hallowed.
The Sabbath Day/ saturday is still with us - only OBSERVING it has literally changed for us and released us from the 'letter....But 'spiritually it has remained the same...HOLY as God is HOLY ! and see Rom 1v4...we will be resurrected with power by the 'Spirit of Holiness from the dead....if we are holy as He is ! so many scriptures tell us. We can't spend eternity with a holy God unless we too are/have become holy through His Word.

Jesus shows us to honour the sabbth day...it's 'our beginning to merge with our Father in heaven.