Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

Sure works maintain our salvation.



Hebrews 3:12-14 New International Version (NIV)

12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

It does not say in here to work to maintain salvation.

It says if your faith is real (only people who have true faith will remain, People who just believe will walk away, Because they are not new creatures.)

The author of Hebrews, Like james, is telling people to test their faith. CHANCES ARE THEY ARE NOT ALL SAVED!

MY GOD do you think your pitiful works are going to cause God to say come on in Fran, You made it? Do you even understand the cross?

Forget I asked, it is obvious by what you continue to say you have no idea of the meaning of atonement. Your trying to atone yourself.

 

[UnderGrace]

You hit it right on. They will not admit it but once they say we must do good works or believe to stay saved they have missed the entire message of atonement.

It does not say in here to work to maintain salvation.

It says if your faith is real (only people who have true faith will remain, People who just believe will walk away, Because they are not new creatures.)

The author of Hebrews, Like james, is telling people to test their faith. CHANCES ARE THEY ARE NOT ALL SAVED!

MY GOD do you think your pitiful works are going to cause God to say come on in Fran, You made it? Do you even understand the cross?

Forget I asked, it is obvious by what you continue to say you have no idea of the meaning of atonement. Your trying to atone yourself.

 

[oldethennew]

the lack of 'unity and show of pride and race for the last-word,' simply proves that many seek
to exonerate their own religious beliefs...confusion and chaos respect no man or woman...

we long to see the Heart of God in our brothers and sisters words, spiked with Charity's seasonings...

 

[PeterJens]

and here is this whole argument- you and others scream about how salvation can be " lost ", yet you have no exact formula as to how. you just pluck verses out of context, try ( and fail ) to make Scripture be against other Scripture, and talk about faith as the saving agent when grace is, the N.T. says this over and over.

I do agree that coming to Christ does not cancel one's free will, and that one could choose to believe and then later choose not to believe, but this probably means one never really truly believed............

Hey my friend, why would we scream anything?
If you do not want to listen to Jesus and God that is your problem.

Sin defiles everyone, and the Lord does not accept defiled people.

If you can come to Christ, knowing a little and calling out of need, the ability to turn
around is also part of it all. The Lord draws, but He only wants those who truly respond.

This world is a world is shadow, while the Kingdom of heaven is rock solid and real.
People think they only see vaguely because the truth is vague but it is they who are
vague and unclear. The clearer we become in hearts the more obvious who our King
truly is.

It is not like we are establishing something to people who have a clue, but rather Gods
presence in someones life makes them more real.

Now if sin has a hold in your life, start to work it through with Christ, bring it to Him,
explain it, work through how it begins, occurs and ends.

 

[Zi]

Titus 3:8..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So, now we're getting to the bottom line...:

You said:

God gave a requirement.

Whoever does not obey is cursed.

He does not give leeway,
He does not water down His Law.

For those who CANNOT admit that they cannot keep the Law, they go to Him in grace and mercy by repenting and He gave them ANOTHER WAY: HIS SON.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

And if they do that, They are COMPLETELY SAVED, They are SAVED FOREVER, they are given the POWER TO BECOME CHILDREN OF GOD, as such, they WILL DO good works, They WILL Obey his commands, (because they are new creatures, and sin to them is eating food their stomoach can not handle. because it is poisoness to them.

But you teach this power. BUT THEN DENY IT

What does this mean?
That if I go to God via His son, I don't have to obey? Because I just cannot?

WHAT? Are you going to tell me a person had faith in God, then want to go live like he did before? SInce when does faith mean I do not have to do anything, THATS NOT FAITH.

again, FAITH WORKS< faith is not dead, If it id dead, IT IS NOT FAITH!! JAMES tried to tell you this, but your mind is so focused on works, you can not understandn what James is trying to tell you.

See EG. The way you word your thoughts is TERRIBLE.

Thats because YOU HAVE UTTERLY NO IDEA WHAT I AM SAYING, it You did, YOU WOULD NOT SAY SUCH RUBBISH like i think a person can be saved AND CONTINUE TO LIVE IN SIN,,

Your the one saying that NOT ME!!!!

Here again, you make it sound like it's ok not to obey God, it's ok to sin, anyway, we have Jesus.

those are your words not mine, I never said that, or insinuating that..

It's the other way around...

JESUS MAKES IT POSSIBLE FOR US TO OBEY.

It's not that WE DON'T HAVE TO OBEY.

Well imagine that, WE AGREE ON SOMETHING, But you can not see this, BECAUSE YOU THINK YOU KNOW EVERYTHING I BELIEVE.

well news flash Fran, YOU DO NOT!! You keep proving you have no idea.

Yes,, Jesus gives us power to obey, Yes his children will obey, Their is no must, because it will happen. WHOEVER HAS FAITH WILL OBEY, PERIOD. If they DO NOT HAVE FAITH< THEY WILL DISOBEY.

it is not a requirement, it is a result. If your root is christ, you will obey, If your root is self *which includes works) you will not work (even if you act like your working, yoru not. God will not accept self righteous works.

NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE..

SIMPLE TO UNDERSTAND...

Then why do you bot understand it?

You tell me you do. then claim a person can be saved AND NOT DO IT..

Do not com eto me preaching about works and salvation and how God empowers us, then deny a person who is born of God can or will do those works. because if you do, you reject that power.

How many times do I have to post
John 14:15

"If you love Me, you will keep my commandments".
NASB

You make it sound like there are no commandments...

You can post it till your blue in the face.

And I will keep responding (even though you keep ignoring)

GODS CHILDREN WILL OBEY HIS COMMANDS. not might.

Your the one who says they might not, NOT ME,

If you do not believe in the power of God to change people. then stop preaching it.

 

[FranC]

and here is this whole argument- you and others scream about how salvation can be " lost ", yet you have no exact formula as to how. you just pluck verses out of context, try ( and fail ) to make Scripture be against other Scripture, and talk about faith as the saving agent when grace is, the N.T. says this over and over.

I do agree that coming to Christ does not cancel one's free will, and that one could choose to believe and then later choose not to believe, but this probably means one never really truly believed............

If you believe that one who Leaves the faith was never really saved, or believed, to begin with, then you ARE OSAS. You DO believe in eternal security.

I believe what the bible says.
Once could be a TRUE BELEIVER, a SAVED PERSON, who retains his free will, and later on, for whatever reason, he loses his faith and becomes lost because he is without Jesus.

And in that last sentence it tells you HOW one becomes lost again.
There IS an exact formula, there is no mystery.

FAITH SAVES A PERSON
IF ONE DOES NOT HAVE FAITH, HE IS LOST

FAITH IN JESUS................SAVED
NO FAITH IN JESUS...........LOST

We are saved by faith. Repeated here many times. Ephesians 2:8
If we have no faith, we are not saved.

Also, GRACE is not the saving agent.
God's grace falls on everyone. God's love and mercy falls on all. God causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust.
If this were no so, how would a person ever come to believe in God?

Galatians 5:5
For we, through the Spirit BY FAITH are waiting for the hope of righteousness.

Ephesians 2:8
For you have been saved by grace (by God's grace) THROUGH FAITH,...

It is the ACTION OF OUR FAITH that saves us, by the grace of God.

God's grace is Always available to us, it is our faith that works with God's grace to save us.

We must respond to God's grace in order to be saved.

 

[Zi]

Heb 12:28..

 

[Stephen63]

Works do not prove anything, The pharisee had alot of what you would call works. How much did it prove they were of God.

James 2:18But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

 

[eternally-gratefull]

1. People reading along understand English. They don't need you to translate.

2. You do seem to be saying that works are evil.

And you are getting on my nerves by continually slandering me by making this false accusation.

SHow me where I said or insinuated works are evil. Just one place.

Until then, Make this claim one more time, and I will report you!!!

3. Please show me here I slandered anyone.

You said they say works are evil. When they have not, THAT IS SLANDER.

You shall not bear fALSE WITNESS. do you even understand what that means?

4. I and God are working TOGETHER to sanctify me. It is NOT only God's work. That is simple theology.

Yet God said he will complete that work, Why do you say God will not?

Who is your faith in then, God or yourself Fran? Come in, Admit it. WHo are you trusting? Fran to complete it or God to compete it?

God said he will. Did God lie? (he never said he woudl faith if you do not allow him, He said he will complete his work until the day of Christ PERIOD

5. I've said many times that if you "work by God's power" and you sin, then you make it out to be GOD who is making you sin.

6. You do works? Why not just admit it???

7. I like it here.

Where have I said I do nto do works? Your the ones who keep preaching we deny works, We think they are evil, We think sin is ok.

Show us where we say it?

 

[FranC]

They're playin' the game again, aren't they?

"Yeah, if you'd quit slandering people"

They will slander you, pick a fight, then accuse YOU of doing it.

They think no one sees them doing what they do.

We're onto their games.

I'm as cool as a moose.

 

[Zi]

Good works prove you have grace that is thru faith.. Grace is what empowers us to do these good works... Titus3:8 Heb 12:28.... Perhaps some have not been taught or realize grace enables us to keep in obedience and not sin... John said IF not WHEN.. If we couldnt help it then he would have said when...

 

[PeterJens]

So the action of our salvation is our own?

????

When a friend comes round and suggests you do something, do you say, if I agree it means
they are my friend or if I suggest something else he is not my friend? No, you discuss the
issues and come to a conclusion and act on it.

So Paul is saying because Christ is our Lord and saviour and we have died to sin, and live
in righteousness we offer ourselves to do acts of righteousness and not acts of wickedness.

This is the fulfillment of salvation, its fruit and its reality.

It strikes me some do not actually believe what Paul is writing, that we are free and healed
for sin and its bondage. Why not?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This reminds me of the phrase, can people hear you scream in space.

The answer is no.

So this is just a strange invention on something that is impossible, so you have to laugh, like
an insult meant to wound, but actually can never exist.

And on people saying God has given us victory over sin, listen to what Paul says

For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin — because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.
rom 6:6-7

Paul is saying in Christ we are free from sin, we no longer sin, we are slaves to righteousness,
sin has lost its hold on us.

Now if Christ has set us free from the bondage of sin, this is the power that many claim is
impossible, so God has done the impossible, Halleluyah.

Here we go.. another one taking things out of context..

Peter, if you can not quote my whole thread, Then stop responding to me, I am sick of you taking words I say out of context and trying to puff yourself up.

Then again you do it to Gods word every day, why should I expect you to treat other people any different.

 

[Zi]

Is that to say I claim to not? no.. but i dont go around with loose morals either.. I like Paul buffet my body so I am not disqualified

 

[Ariel82]

Mathew 9:13

Jesus was having supper at Mathew's house. Soon after many unsavory characters came in to sup with them. The Pharisees couldn't understand why Jesus was eating with them.

So thy asked Him why. Jesus said He came to save the sick, not the healthy. It's the sick who need a doctor. That would be sinners, of course.

Jesus was after mercy for sinners, not religion.
He was here to invite outsiders, sinners, to the table, He was not here to comfort those like the Pharisees.


So, what does this mean to you?
Frankly, I don't get it.
Maybe you could explain it?

What don't you get?

That the Pharisees had a heathen faith in God and not a saving faith in Jesus?

Or the simple statement GOD REQUIRES MORE THAN OBEDIENCE?

I will have to continue this conversation another time. Life calls.

 

[Zi]

Also to activate this grace you must lay down your life.. Christ said the only way to find life is to lay yours down.. Perhaps those who have seen no or noticed no ability to keep in obedience it would be because they have not fully laid their life down to find the one Jesus has for them..

 

[PennEd]

and they refuse to answer questions like post #14552

Then why do we see so many OSAS churches that actually do re-dedication altar calls? If you are OSAS, why should you ever have to rededicate anything? including your faith and commitment to follow Jesus again?

I certainly can't answer for all Churches, or even the one I attend. But I have no problem with rededicating yourself to the Lord.

A lot of saved Christians wander away like lost sheep. BUT THEY ARE STILL SHEEP, they didn't morph into goats. They experience horrible things, like the Prodigal son did because of their wandering. But the Father will draw them back, go and retrieve them, or in some cases give them over to satan for the destruction of the flesh. (Though their spirit will be raised to life).

So what is wrong with acknowledging that wandering and sinful lifestyle, like the Prodigal son did, and rededicate your life to Him? Did the father say, "depart from me you who practice iniquity?"
no. He ran and hugged his son.

He only THOUGHT he had lost his sonship. His Father had other ideas.

So rededication has nothing to do with being born again.

 

[PHart]

Yes, once again it's been entertaining to see the church pontificate about how salvation is by faith apart from works (which it is), and then say for that reason you do not have to have works attached to your faith to be saved, but then they'll turn right around and insist that they are not saying dead faith (faith without works attached) saves. Lol!

 

[Ariel82]

Philippians 3
as to righteousness under the law,c blameless. 7But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.