OT SHADOWS AND TYPES IN THE SABBATH/CLEAN MEAT LAWS - HOW JUDAIZERS MISS THE POINT

[sparkman]

What kind of parent would go around beating their children when they are pleased with them? Of course He wouldn't bring enemies to attack Jerusalem and His children on the sabbath if they were all faithfully obeying His good commandments. I don't know if you missed this but when God was angry with them it was because they were oppressing widows and orphans, corrupting judgement, taking bribes, murdering innocent people, condemning innocent, walking the streets proudly praying to be looked upon with honor.

God even gave the prophets instructions to warn them, and even give notice of when it will be given to the enemy.

Jeremiah 38:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Thus saith the Lord, He that remaineth in this city shall die by the sword, by the famine, and by the pestilence: but he that goeth forth to the Chaldeans shall live; for he shall have his life for a prey, and shall live.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Thus saith the Lord, This city shall surely be given into the hand of the king of Babylon's army, which shall take it.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore the princes said unto the king, We beseech thee, let this man be put to death: for thus he weakeneth the hands of the men of war that remain in this city, and the hands of all the people, in speaking such words unto them: for this man seeketh not the welfare of this people, but the hurt.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Then Zedekiah the king said, Behold, he is in your hand: for the king is not he that can do any thing against you.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Then took they Jeremiah, and cast him into the dungeon of Malchiah the son of Hammelech, that was in the court of the prison: and they let down Jeremiah with cords. And in the dungeon there was no water, but mire: so Jeremiah sunk in the mire.




Or maybe running for your life is exhausting work...

I believe I felt God's displeasure when I wanted to cut my own hair on the sabbath, so yeah.

Luke 12:7
But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.

So, is your claim that bad things never happen to good people? I am not sure I'm sorting out your reasoning on this. Do you realize that Israel killed a lot of the prophets, and those prophets were pursuing God? And, that God uses suffering to sanctify Christians today?

I might not understand your reasoning on this though.

PS If anyone hasn't read the Bible sufficiently to know that what I said above is biblical, feel free to let me know and I will put some milk in your bottle I guess I need that statement to satisfy gotime, else he will claim I don't know the Bible or I'm trying to deceive you.

 

[graceNpeace]

So, is your claim that bad things never happen to good people? I am not sure I'm sorting out your reasoning on this. Do you realize that Israel killed a lot of the prophets, and those prophets were pursuing God? And, that God uses suffering to sanctify Christians today?

I might not understand your reasoning on this though.

PS If anyone hasn't read the Bible sufficiently to know that what I said above is biblical, feel free to let me know and I will put some milk in your bottle I guess I need that statement to satisfy gotime, else he will claim I don't know the Bible or I'm trying to deceive you.

Not to mention that nearly all the apostles were executed precisely because they were Christian!

 

[Zen]

Not to mention that nearly all the apostles were executed precisely because they were Christian!

I don't see how that is related.

The original claim was that a nation that kept the sabbath would be destroyed on the day of rest.

Do you believe this is true? I don't, because God is just and loving.

 

[gotime]

Its not hard sparkman, Just provide some bible evidence for your position from the OT. All I am asking is that you do as The NT writers did. They did not teach unsubstantiated doctrines. They were able and did show from the OT scriptures that their point was based on Gods word. This is evidenced by simply reading the NT.

Is it wrong of me to expect that you follow in their example?

There are two witnesses, The first is the OT the second is the NT. But its clear that the NT takes its authority from the OT in respect to teachings.

As stated, it is easy to prove from the OT that circumcision would cease. J

It is easy to show that the law concerning the priesthood would change from the OT, The temple on earth would change to the one in heaven. Its easy to shew that the sacrificial feasts and all that was attached to them would cease in the OT.

The First witness is complete in doctrine for all time. The Second witness is to testify to the truth and reliability of the first.

hence the reason the four gospels show how Jesus fulfilled prophetic things from the OT. For a simple example:

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Here Matthew gives some of the story of Jesus and then backs it with scripture/OT.

Yet are the OT scriptures fulfilled that speak of the end of the world or the great day of judgement or the second coming? No they are not, Christ is Yet to fulfil all that was written.

Even the book of Revelation is majority quotes from the OT, why because everything Revelation teaches can be found in the OT. The OT is complete and those who do not have a veil over their hearts can see clearly from beginning to end from he OT. Acknowledging that the NT writers taught from the OT.

When Hebrews teaches that there is a change of priesthood they do not just say it with nothing to back their claim. No rather they quote the OT to prove that it was always meant to be. That it was always planned that way.

So how come one can prove everything the NT says by the OT yet you can't prove that the 7th day Sabbath is changed or done away with from the OT? How is it that you can not do what the NT writers did?

How is it that you teach that the NT writers say the 7th day Sabbath is changed or done away with yet the OT says it will be in the new earth and also for Gentiles after the messiah has come?

The OT gives a test to know if something is form God or not in Isaiah, it says:

Isa 8:13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
Isa 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
Isa 8:15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.
Isa 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

This is prophecy concerning Jesus the Messiah that the Testimony will be bound up and sealed among the disciples. But notice then the test how to know if something is from God or not:

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

God says this is how one would know truth from error.

So then if God said this to the people of Israel then if the disciples who have the law taught against the law the Jews by the word of God would have to reject their teaching.

However this is not the case as has been said all along, The NT writers quoted the law and the prophets for all their teachings, They spoke according to the law and the testimony and thus were able to show that they were teaching form Gods word. This is the OT.

So it is not wrong to expect you to show clear evidence form the OT that the 7th day Sabbath would change or be done away with or never meant what it said in the first place. IF you can not do that than by the word of God we should reject your view and acknowledge that you have twisted the second witness/NT to say things it never intended.

One of the biggest outcries against the disciples was that they an Jesus were changing or going against the law and the testimony. Thus they demonstrated from the law and the testimony that they were in harmony with it. That Christ was the Messiah and that their teachings are found in the OT.

Right now you have nothing in all your posts not one has demonstrated from the law and the testimony that the 7th day Sabbath is changed or gone or not what the law and the testimony says. If your view holds any water you will be able as the NT writers did, to demonstrate your position form the law and the testimony.

In short, I only expect you to follow the example of the NT writers and prove your point form the OT. If you can not then your view should be rejected according to the words of God in Isaiah. And it will be manifest that you have cherry picked proof texts from the NT with no foundation and applied your own carnal understanding to them doing what no other NT writer has done.

But if you can simply demonstrate after the same manner as the Nt writers did that the Sabbath particularly the 7th day Sabbath would change or become unimportant from the OT then you will have my full attention.

If you truly are here to help people understand the truth then this is an opportunity for you to show me my error. I have not asked anything hard, just to do what the NT writers did and back your point by the OT.

I have written here publicly that I will listen if you can do as the NT writers did according to the instruction of God. Show me my error from the law and the testimony/OT and then you will have my full attention.

Because my understanding of the OT does not allow for your interpretation of the NT writers. Get me there and you will win me over. I am not against God or truth I just can't see your point form the OT.

 

[sparkman]

Its not hard sparkman, Just provide some bible evidence for your position from the OT. All I am asking is that you do as The NT writers did. They did not teach unsubstantiated doctrines. They were able and did show from the OT scriptures that their point was based on Gods word. This is evidenced by simply reading the NT.

Is it wrong of me to expect that you follow in their example?

There are two witnesses, The first is the OT the second is the NT. But its clear that the NT takes its authority from the OT in respect to teachings.

As stated, it is easy to prove from the OT that circumcision would cease. J

It is easy to show that the law concerning the priesthood would change from the OT, The temple on earth would change to the one in heaven. Its easy to shew that the sacrificial feasts and all that was attached to them would cease in the OT.

The First witness is complete in doctrine for all time. The Second witness is to testify to the truth and reliability of the first.

hence the reason the four gospels show how Jesus fulfilled prophetic things from the OT. For a simple example:

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Here Matthew gives some of the story of Jesus and then backs it with scripture/OT.

Yet are the OT scriptures fulfilled that speak of the end of the world or the great day of judgement or the second coming? No they are not, Christ is Yet to fulfil all that was written.

Even the book of Revelation is majority quotes from the OT, why because everything Revelation teaches can be found in the OT. The OT is complete and those who do not have a veil over their hearts can see clearly from beginning to end from he OT. Acknowledging that the NT writers taught from the OT.

When Hebrews teaches that there is a change of priesthood they do not just say it with nothing to back their claim. No rather they quote the OT to prove that it was always meant to be. That it was always planned that way.

So how come one can prove everything the NT says by the OT yet you can't prove that the 7th day Sabbath is changed or done away with from the OT? How is it that you can not do what the NT writers did?

How is it that you teach that the NT writers say the 7th day Sabbath is changed or done away with yet the OT says it will be in the new earth and also for Gentiles after the messiah has come?

The OT gives a test to know if something is form God or not in Isaiah, it says:

Isa 8:13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
Isa 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
Isa 8:15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.
Isa 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

This is prophecy concerning Jesus the Messiah that the Testimony will be bound up and sealed among the disciples. But notice then the test how to know if something is from God or not:

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

God says this is how one would know truth from error.

So then if God said this to the people of Israel then if the disciples who have the law taught against the law the Jews by the word of God would have to reject their teaching.

However this is not the case as has been said all along, The NT writers quoted the law and the prophets for all their teachings, They spoke according to the law and the testimony and thus were able to show that they were teaching form Gods word. This is the OT.

So it is not wrong to expect you to show clear evidence form the OT that the 7th day Sabbath would change or be done away with or never meant what it said in the first place. IF you can not do that than by the word of God we should reject your view and acknowledge that you have twisted the second witness/NT to say things it never intended.

One of the biggest outcries against the disciples was that they an Jesus were changing or going against the law and the testimony. Thus they demonstrated from the law and the testimony that they were in harmony with it. That Christ was the Messiah and that their teachings are found in the OT.

Right now you have nothing in all your posts not one has demonstrated from the law and the testimony that the 7th day Sabbath is changed or gone or not what the law and the testimony says. If your view holds any water you will be able as the NT writers did, to demonstrate your position form the law and the testimony.

In short, I only expect you to follow the example of the NT writers and prove your point form the OT. If you can not then your view should be rejected according to the words of God in Isaiah. And it will be manifest that you have cherry picked proof texts from the NT with no foundation and applied your own carnal understanding to them doing what no other NT writer has done.

But if you can simply demonstrate after the same manner as the Nt writers did that the Sabbath particularly the 7th day Sabbath would change or become unimportant from the OT then you will have my full attention.

If you truly are here to help people understand the truth then this is an opportunity for you to show me my error. I have not asked anything hard, just to do what the NT writers did and back your point by the OT.

I have written here publicly that I will listen if you can do as the NT writers did according to the instruction of God. Show me my error from the law and the testimony/OT and then you will have my full attention.

Because my understanding of the OT does not allow for your interpretation of the NT writers. Get me there and you will win me over. I am not against God or truth I just can't see your point form the OT.

READ ISAIAH 8 AND TELL ME IF YOUR VIEW OF ISAIAH 8 HOLDS WATER. IT DOESN'T.

It's only one example of quoting out of context that your type does.

It's talking about ISAIAH'S TEACHINGS. The word Torah is properly translated "teachings". And it's talking about Isaiah's disciples.

I have seen Judaizers in the chat room using that Scripture exactly the same way...and in error.

Read it from a modern translation so you can see the issue. Look up the word "law" in Hebrew and see the range of meanings. READ THE REST OF THE CHAPTER. See what that Isaiah and his disciples bound up.

Additionally, the apostles ALLUDED to Scriptures without fully quoting them many times.

Anyways, review Isaiah 8 and then come back with your response.

You can determine the context of Isaiah 8 in this regard simply by reading the whole chapter.


DO IT. Then come back with the response and I'll look at your whole post. You are butchering the word of God.

Additionally, tell me why it is ok to abort babies.

 

[sparkman]

I don't see how that is related.

The original claim was that a nation that kept the sabbath would be destroyed on the day of rest.

Do you believe this is true? I don't, because God is just and loving.

The point is that even perfectly obedient people suffer. Adam was killed by Cain because of the offering he gave. Cain was jealous of him.

 

[sparkman]

Its not hard sparkman, Just provide some bible evidence for your position from the OT. All I am asking is that you do as The NT writers did. They did not teach unsubstantiated doctrines. They were able and did show from the OT scriptures that their point was based on Gods word. This is evidenced by simply reading the NT.

Is it wrong of me to expect that you follow in their example?

There are two witnesses, The first is the OT the second is the NT. But its clear that the NT takes its authority from the OT in respect to teachings.

As stated, it is easy to prove from the OT that circumcision would cease. J

It is easy to show that the law concerning the priesthood would change from the OT, The temple on earth would change to the one in heaven. Its easy to shew that the sacrificial feasts and all that was attached to them would cease in the OT.

The First witness is complete in doctrine for all time. The Second witness is to testify to the truth and reliability of the first.

hence the reason the four gospels show how Jesus fulfilled prophetic things from the OT. For a simple example:

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Here Matthew gives some of the story of Jesus and then backs it with scripture/OT.

Yet are the OT scriptures fulfilled that speak of the end of the world or the great day of judgement or the second coming? No they are not, Christ is Yet to fulfil all that was written.

Even the book of Revelation is majority quotes from the OT, why because everything Revelation teaches can be found in the OT. The OT is complete and those who do not have a veil over their hearts can see clearly from beginning to end from he OT. Acknowledging that the NT writers taught from the OT.

When Hebrews teaches that there is a change of priesthood they do not just say it with nothing to back their claim. No rather they quote the OT to prove that it was always meant to be. That it was always planned that way.

So how come one can prove everything the NT says by the OT yet you can't prove that the 7th day Sabbath is changed or done away with from the OT? How is it that you can not do what the NT writers did?

How is it that you teach that the NT writers say the 7th day Sabbath is changed or done away with yet the OT says it will be in the new earth and also for Gentiles after the messiah has come?

The OT gives a test to know if something is form God or not in Isaiah, it says:

Isa 8:13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
Isa 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
Isa 8:15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.
Isa 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

This is prophecy concerning Jesus the Messiah that the Testimony will be bound up and sealed among the disciples. But notice then the test how to know if something is from God or not:

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

God says this is how one would know truth from error.

So then if God said this to the people of Israel then if the disciples who have the law taught against the law the Jews by the word of God would have to reject their teaching.

However this is not the case as has been said all along, The NT writers quoted the law and the prophets for all their teachings, They spoke according to the law and the testimony and thus were able to show that they were teaching form Gods word. This is the OT.

So it is not wrong to expect you to show clear evidence form the OT that the 7th day Sabbath would change or be done away with or never meant what it said in the first place. IF you can not do that than by the word of God we should reject your view and acknowledge that you have twisted the second witness/NT to say things it never intended.

One of the biggest outcries against the disciples was that they an Jesus were changing or going against the law and the testimony. Thus they demonstrated from the law and the testimony that they were in harmony with it. That Christ was the Messiah and that their teachings are found in the OT.

Right now you have nothing in all your posts not one has demonstrated from the law and the testimony that the 7th day Sabbath is changed or gone or not what the law and the testimony says. If your view holds any water you will be able as the NT writers did, to demonstrate your position form the law and the testimony.

In short, I only expect you to follow the example of the NT writers and prove your point form the OT. If you can not then your view should be rejected according to the words of God in Isaiah. And it will be manifest that you have cherry picked proof texts from the NT with no foundation and applied your own carnal understanding to them doing what no other NT writer has done.

But if you can simply demonstrate after the same manner as the Nt writers did that the Sabbath particularly the 7th day Sabbath would change or become unimportant from the OT then you will have my full attention.

If you truly are here to help people understand the truth then this is an opportunity for you to show me my error. I have not asked anything hard, just to do what the NT writers did and back your point by the OT.

I have written here publicly that I will listen if you can do as the NT writers did according to the instruction of God. Show me my error from the law and the testimony/OT and then you will have my full attention.

Because my understanding of the OT does not allow for your interpretation of the NT writers. Get me there and you will win me over. I am not against God or truth I just can't see your point form the OT.

Additionally the apostles referred to concepts without quoting explicit verses. They assumed their readers knew the Scriptures well. Many times they quoted Scriptures obviously but not always. Sometimes they referred to concepts or partial fragments of the Scripture.

For example, Romans 5 talks extensively about Adam's transgression but Paul doesn't go back and refer to Genesis, or quote those Scriptures explicitly..he assumed the audience knew basic facts.

Additionally, I have quoted Scriptures. I just don't quote them tediously like you do.

If you want to try to assert that the SDAs are more biblical, explain your vegetarianism and abortion teachings. Explain how you don't believe that Christ entered the Holy of Holies until 1844. Explain your view regarding other worlds whose Adams have not sinned.

Why is the fourth commandment applicable, but the sixth commandment not, in regards to abortion? Why is it ok to hack a baby to death in the womb? How are you better than Roman Catholics, who value the sanctity of human life in the womb? Just because you allegedly have the day right?

 

[sparkman]

Its not hard sparkman, Just provide some bible evidence for your position from the OT. All I am asking is that you do as The NT writers did. They did not teach unsubstantiated doctrines. They were able and did show from the OT scriptures that their point was based on Gods word. This is evidenced by simply reading the NT.

Is it wrong of me to expect that you follow in their example?

There are two witnesses, The first is the OT the second is the NT. But its clear that the NT takes its authority from the OT in respect to teachings.

As stated, it is easy to prove from the OT that circumcision would cease. J

It is easy to show that the law concerning the priesthood would change from the OT, The temple on earth would change to the one in heaven. Its easy to shew that the sacrificial feasts and all that was attached to them would cease in the OT.

The First witness is complete in doctrine for all time. The Second witness is to testify to the truth and reliability of the first.

hence the reason the four gospels show how Jesus fulfilled prophetic things from the OT. For a simple example:

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Here Matthew gives some of the story of Jesus and then backs it with scripture/OT.

Yet are the OT scriptures fulfilled that speak of the end of the world or the great day of judgement or the second coming? No they are not, Christ is Yet to fulfil all that was written.

Even the book of Revelation is majority quotes from the OT, why because everything Revelation teaches can be found in the OT. The OT is complete and those who do not have a veil over their hearts can see clearly from beginning to end from he OT. Acknowledging that the NT writers taught from the OT.

When Hebrews teaches that there is a change of priesthood they do not just say it with nothing to back their claim. No rather they quote the OT to prove that it was always meant to be. That it was always planned that way.

So how come one can prove everything the NT says by the OT yet you can't prove that the 7th day Sabbath is changed or done away with from the OT? How is it that you can not do what the NT writers did?

How is it that you teach that the NT writers say the 7th day Sabbath is changed or done away with yet the OT says it will be in the new earth and also for Gentiles after the messiah has come?

The OT gives a test to know if something is form God or not in Isaiah, it says:

Isa 8:13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
Isa 8:14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
Isa 8:15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.
Isa 8:16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.

This is prophecy concerning Jesus the Messiah that the Testimony will be bound up and sealed among the disciples. But notice then the test how to know if something is from God or not:

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

God says this is how one would know truth from error.

So then if God said this to the people of Israel then if the disciples who have the law taught against the law the Jews by the word of God would have to reject their teaching.

However this is not the case as has been said all along, The NT writers quoted the law and the prophets for all their teachings, They spoke according to the law and the testimony and thus were able to show that they were teaching form Gods word. This is the OT.

So it is not wrong to expect you to show clear evidence form the OT that the 7th day Sabbath would change or be done away with or never meant what it said in the first place. IF you can not do that than by the word of God we should reject your view and acknowledge that you have twisted the second witness/NT to say things it never intended.

One of the biggest outcries against the disciples was that they an Jesus were changing or going against the law and the testimony. Thus they demonstrated from the law and the testimony that they were in harmony with it. That Christ was the Messiah and that their teachings are found in the OT.

Right now you have nothing in all your posts not one has demonstrated from the law and the testimony that the 7th day Sabbath is changed or gone or not what the law and the testimony says. If your view holds any water you will be able as the NT writers did, to demonstrate your position form the law and the testimony.

In short, I only expect you to follow the example of the NT writers and prove your point form the OT. If you can not then your view should be rejected according to the words of God in Isaiah. And it will be manifest that you have cherry picked proof texts from the NT with no foundation and applied your own carnal understanding to them doing what no other NT writer has done.

But if you can simply demonstrate after the same manner as the Nt writers did that the Sabbath particularly the 7th day Sabbath would change or become unimportant from the OT then you will have my full attention.

If you truly are here to help people understand the truth then this is an opportunity for you to show me my error. I have not asked anything hard, just to do what the NT writers did and back your point by the OT.

I have written here publicly that I will listen if you can do as the NT writers did according to the instruction of God. Show me my error from the law and the testimony/OT and then you will have my full attention.

Because my understanding of the OT does not allow for your interpretation of the NT writers. Get me there and you will win me over. I am not against God or truth I just can't see your point form the OT.

Prove every statement you made in this post with Scripture. Let's see them.

 

[Zen]

The point is that even perfectly obedient people suffer.

That's unrelated, our purpose here is to suffer.

I can image a Nation that observed the Sabbath would last about 6 days, on the 7th day they would be invaded.

I don't even know how to address this.

You cannot provide scripture that showed that God would bring enemies to invade His people's lands when they were walking in His commandments. Or that He would simply watch it happen without saying anything. All the times that God brought enemies to punish the Israelites it was because they were NOT KEEPING THE COMMANDMENTS. And you'll also observe that He gave fair warning, and then told either a prophet or priest, etc. Then they warned the people what will happen.

This is getting silly.

 

[garee]

So how come one can prove everything the NT says by the OT yet you can't prove that the 7th day Sabbath is changed or done away with from the OT? How is it that you can not do what the NT writers did?

How is it that you teach that the NT writers say the 7th day Sabbath is changed or done away with yet the OT says it will be in the new earth and also for Gentiles after the messiah has come?

The OT gives a test to know if something is form God or not in Isaiah, it says:

The word Sabbath is not a time sensitive word. Whenever we do not harden our hearts knowing it is Christ who is of "one mind" and always does whatsoever His soul pleases who does make our heart soft giving us the witness we have entered his rest that was established on the seventh day. This is in respect when Christ as a parable demonstrated...not the actual, the spiritual work(not seen)of the lamb of God slain from the foundation.

It is reasoned by two different historically accurate parables of the Lamb of God in respect to a ceremonial law (not a moral law).

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. Exo 20:8

Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day. Deu 5:12

There is no work we could perform outwardly to prove we have the Holy Spirit inwardly.

It will not be full realized as long as we remain in these bodies of death. The word week in the many paraphrases was added by someone who desired to judge another in respect to a Sabbath or a new moon. Can’t keep a shadows and types that have been reformed at the time of reformation .

Not making the word Sabbath as a time sensitive word (week) it would literally read.

In the end of the Sabbaths,(plural) as it began to dawn toward the first of the new era of Sabbaths (plural) the first day Sunday, the day he said let there be light ...came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. fMat 28:1

It is not set aside to do no work but is set aside to work to bring the gospel as the kind of food the disciples knew not of and therefore the kind of fast that could not remove the demon possessed according the true fast (the gospel) which did cause them to flee .

 

[sparkman]

That's unrelated, our purpose here is to suffer.



I don't even know how to address this.

You cannot provide scripture that showed that God would bring enemies to invade His people's lands when they were walking in His commandments. Or that He would simply watch it happen without saying anything. All the times that God brought enemies to punish the Israelites it was because they were NOT KEEPING THE COMMANDMENTS. And you'll also observe that He gave fair warning, and then told either a prophet or priest, etc. Then they warned the people what will happen.

This is getting silly.

I didn't make the second remark..someone else made it.

But, notice that Gentile nations were never condemned in the OT for failing to keep the Sabbath. They weren't in the covenant relationship with God, so why would they observe it, and why would God care? That would be like God judging unbelievers for not being baptized or observing the Lord's Supper.

Again, this supports my assertion that the Sabbath is not a moral issue..God did make statements regarding Gentile nations shedding innocent blood and mistreating the poor.

No one has a sensitivity regarding the Sabbath unless they are educated about it. But, mankind knows that murder, lying, etcetera is morally wrong. Romans 1-2 specifies sins that the Gentiles, without the law, knew intuitively were sins, because it is embedded in their conscience. Notice the Sabbath, festivals, and clean meat laws aren't mentioned whatsoever. Read Romans 1-2..

If anyone can show me one Scripture in the OT which shows judgment coming upon Gentile nations for not observing the Sabbath, you can easily overturn my position Show me, show me, show me.

 

[gotime]

Prove every statement you made in this post with Scripture. Let's see them.

I don't need to you have already agreed that the New Testament uses the Old. So that is established. Now instead of stall tactics and avoiding the issue, get straight to it. All I am after is evidence from the OT that the 7th Day Sabbath would be done away with or changed. Not hard.

 

[gotime]

My whole point is simple Sparkman, If you agree with the texts I used or not is besides the point. You yourself said above that the Disciples often allude to the OT without quoting, You seem to say that as if I did not know that when in fact it is kin to the point I have been making.

So here is the simple point. show from the OT that Sabbath is done away with or would be done away with. If you can't then your wrong simple, If you can then I am listening so to speak. I am trying to cut to the chase so to speak. Instead of us going in circles on debating the what Paul meant lets get straight to it. If Paul did indeed teach that the 7th day Sabbath does not matter then you like He would must be able to point it out in the OT.

And being that you are so much more knowledgeable on this topic than me it should not be a hard task. Because you clearly know Hebrew and Greek and have more insight than me so then teach but do so by the OT as the NT writers did. or rather back it up with the OT is the point.

If the 7th day Sabbath was meant by Paul then you should be able to demonstrate and show me that the Scriptures of the OT prophesied this change of the 7th day.

 

[gotime]

This is not about me teaching you, I am asking you to teach me.

I want to see what it is you think I have missed.

 

[Yonah]

It is astounding how many false doctrines are not even in biblical text yet some will cling to these man-made doctrines as if mans wisdom somehow is superior to that of the Almighty... I still question the true motive of those who do, it seems easy to tell if someone is actually in error yet is sincere about wanting to walk in truth.

 

[Yonah]

And just for the record I never said that reformed theology is satanic, this is a misquote, I was asked in main chat , what do you think of calvanism Yonah? and my reply was that it is satanic in nature and origin, becuase it teaches a non-accountability doctrine by presuming to teach we really don't have a choice either we are chosen to live or die no matter what we do.

I was asked my opinion on this by another chatter, the next thing I know m being interrigated in pm and being told the owner of this site believes in calvanism as if that matters or alters how I see it... not to mention the personal attacks that soon followed, I have tried to reconcile but was promptly refused, I tried everything I could to explain my position and why I believe the way I do, as if I needed to explain myself to anyone.
I never mentioned the words reformed theology in that statement or since until now.
if others want to hate on others simply because their beliefs are different then the majority then they might want to realize the ranks they joine are those who have acted in a manner consistant with satans agenda.

 

[Issachar92]

I have seen a lot of people with hebrew names roleplaying to be Jews just to be all hebrew and elect and stuff.

If you are keeping the sabbath as a gentile to honor the Lord, great, good for you, but don't make it an obligation to other gentiles and say they are sinning if they don't keep the sabbath.
If you go back to the old testament you see that the Sabbath was given as a sign between God and the nation of ISRAEL, not gentiles. Israel. (Contrary to what some replacement theology folks might say, Israel in the old testament does not mean the 'church).

And one more thing, after I became a christian i stopped using fancy judaism terms like "HaShem" and if im around english speaking people you will never hear me use the word Y'shua because I wanna blend in and not impress people with that stuff. I get a feeling that this whole hebrew roots movement is rooted in trying to impress others, but the funny thing is if you try to start a conversation with these guys in hebrew you will quickly notice all they know is Shalom Y'shua and HaShem and thats about it. I even met someone who didn't know that Shabbos is just the ashkenazi way of saying sabbath hahaha.

So long story short: Sabbath was given as a sign between God and His people, Israel. No where in the new testament is there a command to observe the Sabbath, even Paul lists pretty much all the 10 commandments to the gentiles but he leaves out Sabbath, think about that. Col 2:16

 

[Zen]

So long story short: Sabbath was given as a sign between God and His people, Israel.

No where in the new testament is there a command to observe the Sabbath, even Paul lists pretty much all the 10 commandments to the gentiles but he leaves out Sabbath, think about that. Col 2:16

Christians are Israel, the bride of Christ, i.e His people.

Notice in your own statement you've claimed that the sabbath was given to His people, and then follow this up by saying that we don't need to do it.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I'm a bit sick of so-called Jews being known around the world as being "God's chosen people" and having many oppression cards to play in arguments, when the identities of true Jews are known only to God, and many so-called Jews are atheists, satanists, dabbling with kabbalah, working against Christians and the destruction of white people.

"Oh someone identifies with a blue 6-pointed star? That's the "Star of David"! That means these people are special and are above criticism, only these people get special things from God! Only Jews are Israelites! Israel only had 1 son, etc."

Israel is the bride of Christ, His people. Israel is 12 tribes, not 1. Anyone who converts is grafted in to the vine to become Israel. Who are Christians if not God's people? Do you think God has 2 sets of people? One bunch of money-grubbing atheistic pagans who hate Christians, and a lesser bunch of people known as Christians?

By claiming that God gave the sabbath to His people and that Christians don't need to follow it, you're essentially saying that Christians aren't God's people.

/rant

Is it possible to profane the sabbath? Y/N - Yes
Did Lord Jesus teach on the sabbath? Y/N - Yes
Did Lord Jesus say He is Lord of the sabbath? Y/N - Yes
Did Lord Jesus say that you can do good on the sabbath? Y/N - Yes
Did Lord Jesus say you can do work on the sabbath? Y/N - No
Did God say "The sabbath no longer exists" Y/N? - No
Did God say "The sabbath is no longer holy" Y/N? - No
Did God say "The sabbath is any day you want" Y/N? - No

 

[Issachar92]

Christians are Israel, the bride of Christ, i.e His people.

Replacement theology 101 right here guys.
If you read Israel in the old testament and you read it as "church" and thats gonna lead you to misinterpret the bible.

Listen, in this current church age there is neither jew nor gentile in Christ Jesus.
However, once the church is removed at the rapture, the Lord will start dealing with Israel again (read romans 11) during the time of Jacob's trouble.

There is a difference between Israel and the Church.

Remember what Paul says about not boasting against the natural branches? I can see you hate Jews quite a bit, thats unfortunate considering that a Jew died for you on the cross.
You also seem to be into conspiracy theories about Jews trying to destroy europeans, hmm, I wonder who thinks that? The nazis. So lets get into this, the reason why european birth rates are down the toilet has nothing to do with Jews, but with secular humanism and feminism and the overpopulation propaganda being spewed by the government.
So if you want to save the 'white race' since thats so important to you, maybe you should go and be fruitful and multiply, seems like europeans aren't really into that anymore, who to blame? ITS THE JEWS!

What you and other 'teachers' of replacement theology fail to realize is that the whole point of the Jews being regathered to Israel right now IS that they are in unbelief when they are gathered, THAT IS PRECISELY WHY there is the time of Jacob's trouble.
How do you think the Jews would fall for the anti-christ if they were already christians at that time?

Read romans chapters 9 through 11, they completely and utterly destroy this false teaching of replacement theology.

 

[Zen]

Remember what Paul says about not boasting against the natural branches? I can see you hate Jews quite a bit, thats unfortunate considering that a Jew died for you on the cross.

Muh special privileges. I already addressed people like you.

I'm a bit sick of so-called Jews being known around the world as being "God's chosen people" and having many oppression cards to play in arguments, when the identities of true Jews are known only to God, and many so-called Jews are atheists, satanists, dabbling with kabbalah, working against Christians and the destruction of white people.

Who is boasting? So-called Jews don't even believe in heaven or hell. So-called Jews don't even believe that God is a person, let alone the Holy Trinity. How can they be taken seriously if the miss the whole O.T. theme of God (as a person) showing them patience and coming down to the earth, if they believe He is just a spirit who is both male and female?

"Yeah they murdered the messiah but they are still chosen, only these people are Israel, Christians are just...meh...go and do your own thing you aren't part of the vine, we are God's chosen people not you, goyim".

1 Thessalonians 2:
14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.