Not By Works

[Katy-follower]

Why do some here keep bringing up the Catholic religion?

I mean, are YOU Catholic that you keep bringing it up?
Do ALL PROTESTANTS, of which I'm one, believe is OSAS?

I DON'T THINK SO.

You could check but most protestants beleive that salvation CAN BE LOST.

Because the teaching of conditional salvation, no eternal security, a salvation that requires works and must be maintained by us actually came from the catholic church first!! It's a catholic doctrine. This teaching crept its way into the protestant churches and has been embraced by many churches unfortunately. Infiltration.

The catholic church is Babylonian, just that some of the teachings of Rome have crept into the protestant churches.

Eternal security is not a new doctrine made up by men. It's confirmed in the scriptures. Just that many are following the catholic teachings and not believing what the scriptures say.

By the way, the catholic church even lists eternal security as an anathema.

 

[FranC]

That is true.

But in a sense you were right because God used you to show that he is never wrong.

I do get where you are coming from.

I dint know about you but when God has used me and it's become apparent I sit back and say or think "Really God, why on earth have you used me, I don't get it"

Its his grace in us that we allow him to work out of us.

But truth is until the day I die I will always ask that question "Why use me?

Actually just a quick side note.

I was talking to a guy who read John 3:16 (a guy with a Muslim upbringing)
He said to me "Why would God love me?
Without thinking I said "Why not?

He looked at me for about 10 seconds and burst out laughing and said "Why not, I can't answer that so it must be true"

He got baptised 2 weeks later.

He goes to a different church now but comes back occassionly. When he does he seeks me out, big smile on his face, hugs me hard and says "Why not?

Truth is with God "Why not?

Seems to me that the ones who do the most works,
don't want to say the word "works."

 

[FranC]

Oh oh so it's not the Isle of Wight (little island south of England)

Nice place.

 

[FranC]

Perhaps you don't get how I talk because you don't know who I am.

.I am not judging anyone or playing God as I told you before but you choose to ignore.

I don't really know why I bother to answer, but it has important for me to find out what makes the gospel of Jesus different from other religions because of my own life experiences and what GOD has called me to do and learn.

I don't expect you to understand because you don't really care but are just performing for an audience.

If you did actually care, you would have learnt by now I focus on what it takes for folks to be saved and not on labeling who does and doesn't have "correct doctrine"

If you have a saving faith in what Jesus did on the cross for the remission of sins, His ressurection and ascension and confess that faith with Your lips then Jesus will send His Holy spirit to seal and teach you.

I can't judge of someone has this affirmation or not. People have to examine their own hearts.
.if they do have the Holy spirit then I have faith that God will teach us what we need to know to live godly lives.

I can state what i believe and why. Either the Holy spirit will affirm it in your heart or your words will convict me and the Holy spirit will show me my errors.

.I have faith God shows others their errors too and don't feel the profound need to correct and "teach" folks.

.I come to fellowship and affirm what God has taught me and others, to encourage and to stand for God's truth. Sometimes I even learn a few new words and hear some awesome testimony of how God is working on people's lives.

You believe works is a requirement to stay saved. I disagree and have state why.

Neither of us is going to "convince" the other. So let us instead discuss other topics and agree to pray that God reveal His truth to both of us. Perhaps He will break through the walls of communication that seems to be between us at the moment.

We come from different cultural and life experiences. The same words have different meanings to us.

I see heathen offends you. However perhaps it would help you to remember that I did not grow up Christian and many of my friends and loved ones are heathens, but some still love God. Most Christians don't actually spend enough time with him Christians to actually understand what they believe.

As evident in this thread, most folks have a hard time seeing what others who don't share their beliefs actually believe and are saying.

I understand really well what you're saying.

You said it yourself, we disagree.
Works DO KEEP YOU SAVED.

Faith without works is a dead faith.
James 2:17, 20

Works are doing what Jesus said to do.
It's doing what we have to do to follow Him.

If we continue to follow Him, we will be IN HIM,
If we do not follow Him, we ARE NOT IN HIM

and all the benefits of being IN HIM are now out of the person's grasp.

You have to decide if you have free will or not. This is all- important.

I find that John 15:1-17 says it all.

IF we ABIDE IN CHRIST, we will have much fruit. Apparently Jesus EXPECTS us to have fruit.
IF we DO NOT ABIDE IN CHRIST, he is thrown away as a branch- dried up, gathered, and is burned.

We CANNOT say that Jesus doen not EXPECT AND REQUIRE us to do good works.

WE have to state plainly that IT IS NECESSARY.

And yes, I'm here for an audience, the one following along, reading this, and not even posting.

Why should they hear that IT IS NOT NECESSARY to work to continue to be saved when it's not true?
I'm here to tell them the truth as the bible teaches to anyone who reads it with no preconceptions.

 

[FranC]

Wrong again

Readers out there need to know this. This needs to be exposed as error, otherwise people they will become entrapped in a system of works to keep salvation which on a day-to-day basis becomes a burden God never imposed on his children.

This thread has meandered in so many different directions..... but let’s get James straight within the context of all scriptures that tell us that we are saved eternally.

Which by the way is the only way to understand the Bible!


Statements such as “if you have faith, you will have works” need to be put to eternal rest as in Die!!


This is a salvation-base, and works-based response to and application of James message.


He isn’t questioning the faith or salvation of his audience because of the absence of works; rather he is questioning

the absence of works ‘given’ their faith and salvation taken at face value.

He urging them not to have dead faith...dead meaning USELESS ... while these works are not to save us or even to prove we are saved they do help with our testimony (justify) before men.

James says that WITHOUT WORKS FAITH IS DEAD.
James 2:17, 20


What does dead faith mean to you?

To regular normal folk it means DEAD = NON EXISTANT. NOT ALIVE. DEAD AS A DOOR NAIL.

What does it mean to "your side"?

How do you twist that one around to mean something it does not?

DEAD MEANS DEAD.

 

[FranC]

Again this is not about works and holding on.

The bible talks about different types of salvation, and a person needs to properly divide scripture to know what type of salvation is in view.

Verses 12, 14, and 17 explain that to “believe in vain” (1 Corinthians 15:2) is to believe to no purpose, to believe a gospel that is not true. It has nothing to do with not having “enough faith,” not having the “right kind of faith,” et cetera.


Paul is saying that if Jesus Christ did not resurrect, then it is pointless to believe the Gospel of the Grace of God that teaches that He was in fact raised again the third day (verse 4). By clarifying the matter of “believing in vain” of 1 Corinthians 15:2, the issue of “saved, if ye keep in memory” becomes astoundingly clearer, too.


I find these theological ploys invented by people because they do not understand how to handle the passage rather frustrating, and then always wanting to insert insecurity about salvation into a passage in such an affront to Gospel of the Grace of God and rather dishonest too!

What Does...
IF YOU HOLD FIRMLY mean???

 

[PeterJens]

It's not easy believism or cheap grace to believe that Faith saves.

The problem with shorter and shorter summaries is they actually loose all meaning because
everyone reads in different things.

Every believer in Christ could agree faith saves. Why? Because without faith, there is no
belief system, no relationship. So reducing the words down does not add meaning, it layers
it, but go down another layer of theology or experience and you can find you are in very
different places.

So one spiritual experience for some, is heaven assured forever.
For others it is just a step on a road of transformation.

Now which is more real and true? Is anything in life just a one off experience or rather a
road from one location to another.

 

[FranC]

I see no one has told us exactly how many good works we need to have in order to be saved and to remain saved.

If our eternal destination is determined on "good works" - then knowing exactly what every one of them is and how many we need to do and for how long - would be a "HANDY DANDY PIECE" of information to have.

Because according to some people's religion our loving Father who loves His children dearly will throw us in the lake of fire if we don't "do good works" and do enough of them.

We need to have every one of them named and exactly how much we need to do them in order to stop our Father from throwing us into hell.

( Notice that Christ is not involved in this at all - it is all us - oh the smart ones will give "lip-service" to the term grace and faith but Christ is not central - we are. We are our own Savior by our good works. It's an anti-Christ belief system. )

Silly questions Grace.

I truly am surprised.

But those reading along can tell what a farce these questions are.

If we are friends of Christ, we WILL OBEY HIS COMMANDMENTS.
John 15:14

In John 15:15 JESUS tell us that He does not call us slaves because the slave does not KNOW what the master is doing.
But Jesus has called us friends because everything He has heard from the FAther, He has made known to us.

Jesus did not keep us in the dark as to what we are to do.

Please read Mathew chapters 5 to 7.

You'll find out what Jesus expects from you.
AFTER SALVATION, of course.

 

[Grace777x70]

I keeping asking the same question sigh

God was precise in the Law, it seems out of character for Him not to give us a measuring stick so we have an idea if we are working hard enough after the cross and resurrection.

Maybe I am missing something?

Oh wait .... I know.... I have to be and act exactly like Jesus (does anyone have a spare cross I could carry?).

I better not stop believing (didn't Journey write a song about that?) or falter even for a second or longer.

I better be piling on those good works to ensure my place in heaven cause it would seem that Jesus did not complete the job so I better do my part. Now why would He leave a job half done, it just does not seem like Him?

Well now, Paul must have been confused when he said that we would not be able to boast.

Oops was this offensive, well, it can never ever be as offensive as "cheap grace"

Thanks Grace7, you see it too.. there is a gapping hole in this theology of works like the mouth of an open grave.

I agree...

Imagine a "god" that says - If you don't do good works then I will send you to hell and then into the lake of fires - even though your sins were washed in My Son's blood and you are My child whom I love deeply - which is the reason why I sent My Son to die for you. But - "you must do good works" to insure you are continually remained saved.

That is an anti-Christ belief system that is no where near the true gospel message of Christ as our Savior.

This "god" doesn't tell us exactly what these good works are specifically and how much we need...etc

If our eternal destination is determined on "good works" - then knowing exactly what every one of them is and how many we need to do and for how long - would be a "HANDY DANDY PIECE" of information to have.

Thank God for the real gospel of the grace of God in Christ. Feed Christians the word of Christ Himself and they will have His life being manifested to walk out the good works of the Father that are in them now because they are in Christ and Christ is in them.

 

[Ariel82]

Fran we define works differently and until you bother to acknowledge the difference between fruit, obedience and good works, then it's pointless for us to try and have a conversation.

Personally, I am here to talk to people, who actually listen and respond back in a Christlike manner, even if we disagree....not perform for an unseen audience.

 

[Grace777x70]

Thank God that John tells us exactly what the commandments are in the New Covenant.

1 John 3:23 (NASB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.

 

[FranC]

I think you forgot the words "put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ" and make no provision for the flesh. This to willybob.

Fran

ISV
Tit 3:3　 After all, we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, and misled. We were slaves to many kinds of lusts and pleasures, spending our days in malice and jealousy. We were despised, and we hated one another.　

(the following is in poetic form) The ISV is the most accurate.

Tit 3:4　 In grace our Savior God appeared, to make his love for mankind clear.
　
Tit 3:5　 'Twas not for deeds that we had done, but by his steadfast love alone, he saved us through a second birth, renewed us by the Spirit's work,
　
Tit 3:6　 and poured him out upon us, too, through Jesus the Messiah our Savior true.　


Tit 3:7　 And so, made heirs by his own grace, eternal life we now embrace. (finished)
　
Tit 3:8　 This saying is trustworthy. I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have put their faith in God may devote themselves to good actions. These things are good and helpful to other people.
　
Tit 3:9　 But avoid foolish controversies, arguments about genealogies, quarrels, and fights about the Law. These things are useless and worthless.　


Tit 3:10　 Have nothing to do with a divisive person after you have warned him once or twice.
　
Tit 3:11　 For you know that a person like this is corrupt and keeps on sinning, being self-condemned.
　

Yes Stone.

But you can't get away from works.

Please see the highlighted.

WORKS are written of in every part of the N.T.
Know why?

They're NECESSARY for obedience to God.

 

[FranC]

Really .......You think what Jesus did was easy??

Hey, I hope you feel comfortable telling Him that when you meet Him face to face.

Think about the contradiction in your terminology, especially in light of the cross!

HELLO!!!

Cheap Grace DOES NOT mean that God's grace is cheap.

It means that SOME MEN MAKE IT OUT TO BE.


You should try to understand the difference.

For instance, you're beliefs make grace to be cheap.

If I give you everything and you give me nothing,
Everything I've given you is of NO VALUE TO YOU since have give me nothing in RETURN.

Easy concept.

 

[gb9]

HELLO!!!

Cheap Grace DOES NOT mean that God's grace is cheap.

It means that SOME MEN MAKE IT OUT TO BE.


You should try to understand the difference.

For instance, you're beliefs make grace to be cheap.

If I give you everything and you give me nothing,
Everything I've given you is of NO VALUE TO YOU since have give me nothing in RETURN.

Easy concept.

easy yes. Biblical no!! grace is a free gift. do you understand this? one does not " earn " a gift,

 

[FranC]

I see both arguments like this: In the near future cars are self-driving to such a point that some even don't have windows. In your self-driving car, you get a call: "Hey, where you headed?" "Well, I set the GPS for my Father's house." "Great, when are you going to get there?" "I don't know." "Why don't you know?" "My GPS doesn't measure speed or distance." "Then how do you know that you're moving at all?" "I don't need to know that information to get there, I've got a GPS." "But what if there's a bridge out or you have to pee or something?" "You're undermining the graceful convenience of the GPS by worrying about all of these details. Besides, if I get off track is it really going to affect anything? I still have a GPS"

If the GPS is Jesus, then I agree.

I'm really writing to welcome you to CC.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Fran we define works differently and until you bother to acknowledge the difference between fruit, obedience and good works, then it's pointless for us to try and have a conversation.

Personally, I am here to talk to people, who actually listen and respond back in a Christlike manner, even if we disagree....not perform for an unseen audience.

i have views on this ariel...

care to elaborate your current understanding?
maybe ill chime in after if i disagree

or drop a like if youre right

 

[Ariel82]

I have already stated that good fruit is different than good works but apparently you don't bother to listen.

Good fruit is the inward change GOD WORKS within each heart.

Good works is done when we are mature and know our spiritual gifts and ministry for building up the Body of Christ, which may take years to manifest but doesn't mean folks aren't saved because they are babes in Christ.


.

Before he can be erected again, let me address the statement that says that folks blame God for their sin because they give glory to God for His change in them.

First it's illogical.

Yes I believe that we have free will to chose to either follow God or follow the leading of the world and it's false promises.

God working good within each heart is acknowledge that the power to change does not come from ourselves but is divine power. That God is in control.

Producing fruit is not a work of man but a work of God through us. We humbly abide in Him and allow Him to work in our hearts and show us what needs to change and how. He teaches us truth to fight the lies.


This is different than when we begin to do outward works for others. The first benefits us to help us heal and grow and become mature/perfect in Christ and is done for us out of love.

The second: us doing good works is done for others to glorify God. Its not so we can have a reward or earn anything.

The goal of Christian maturity is not to have more works done, because does God really need our help or worship to run this world?

God gives us jobs and tasks because He loves us and made us for a purpose.

The goal of Christian maturity is unity in heart and mind a,d will with God and unity with our brothers and sisters as the Body of Christ...working together to glorify God.

Therefore I say again the simple statement:

GOD requires MORE than obedience (or good works.)

God requires a humble and contrite heart seeking His truth and His kingdom. For those who truly seek, will find that Jesus is God's answer to how He plans to overcome the evil in this world. They will learn that the Church of born again believers washed in His blood and clothed in His righteousness is more than just words on a page. That God hears our prayers and answers everyone...even if the answer is "wait" or " I have something better planned for your life".

 

[FranC]

As I said, two groups are constantly mentioned in the scriptures... those who have faith in the finished work of Jesus to save them (narrow road) & those who are trusting in their own works to save them (broad road).

Jesus is the only way. Nothing added.

It stuns me that some will stand before Jesus one day, saying "look at what I did for you" rather than "look what you did for me". Many have this thinking... they look to themselves and believe they must add to the finished work of Jesus.


Isaiah 64:6-7:

But we are all like an unclean thing,
And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;
We all fade as a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind,
Have taken us away.
And there is no one who calls on Your name,
Who stirs himself up to take hold of You;
For You have hidden Your face from us,
And have consumed us because of our iniquities.

It stuns you that Jesus will be upset that you did works for Him?????????????????

I hope those reading along caught that.
It's pretty unbelievable.

God does NOT want us to do good works?
Unbelievable.


Matthew 7:13-2 3New International Version (NIV)

The Narrow and Wide Gates

13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.



True and False Prophets

15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

True and False Disciples

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’
23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’




John 5:28-29 New International Version (NIV)

28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice
29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.



This is Jesus talking --- not me.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Before he can be erected again, let me address the statement that says that folks blame God for their sin because they give glory to God for His change in them.

First it's illogical.

Yes I believe that we have free will to chose to either follow God or follow the leading of the world and it's false promises.

God working good within each heart is acknowledge that the power to change does not come from ourselves but is divine power. That God is in control.

Producing fruit is not a work of man but a work of God through us. We humbly abide in Him and allow Him to work in our hearts and show us what needs to change and how. He teaches us truth to fight the lies.


This is different than when we begin to do outward works for others. The first benefits us to help us heal and grow and become mature/perfect in Christ and is done for us out of love.

The second: us doing good works is done for others to glorify God. Its not so we can have a reward or earn anything.

The goal of Christian maturity is not to have more works done, because does God really need our help or worship to run this world?

God gives us jobs and tasks because He loves us and made us for a purpose.

The goal of Christian maturity is unity in heart and mind a,d will with God and unity with our brothers and sisters as the Body of Christ...working together to glorify God.

Therefore I say again the simple statement:

GOD requires MORE than obedience (or good works.)

God requires a humble and contrite heart seeking His truth and His kingdom. For those who truly seek, will find that Jesus is God's answer to how He plans to overcome the evil in this world. They will learn that the Church of born again believers washed in His blood and clothed in His righteousness is more than just words on a page. That God hears our prayers and answers everyone...even if the answer is "wait" or " I have something better planned for your life".

maybe i need to look harder
lol


cause i cant find anything i disagree with here

 

[FranC]

Because the teaching of conditional salvation, no eternal security, a salvation that requires works and must be maintained by us actually came from the catholic church first!! It's a catholic doctrine. This teaching crept its way into the protestant churches and has been embraced by many churches unfortunately. Infiltration.

The catholic church is Babylonian, just that some of the teachings of Rome have crept into the protestant churches.

Eternal security is not a new doctrine made up by men. It's confirmed in the scriptures. Just that many are following the catholic teachings and not believing what the scriptures say.

By the way, the catholic church even lists eternal security as an anathema.

So the early Church, right at about Jesus' time did NOT believe in eternal security.

And most Protestant churches do not believe in it either.

So then Eternals Security must be a false doctrine!

Now you're starting to understand.