Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

can you biblically define "grace"? if so then we might be able to have a conversation...happy hunting

1. if it is grace, it is no longer works, otherwise, grace is no longer grace. (it does not include works)

2. For by grace we have been saved by faith.. Not of works lest anyone should boast. (you can nit boast of grace)

3. For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. (it is not part of the law and law is not part of it)

4. But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.” (Again, Is the means of our salvation)

5. “So now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified. (its able to build you up and gives you an inheritance.)

6. being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, (it is free, it is not earned, it is a gift.

Or we could just look up the defenition, where it means unmerited or unearned favor.

But you will not listen to any of this will you?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

its very simple; nowhere in the text can one find the transfer of virtues....sin is imputed/reckoned to those that do iniquity. the soul that sinneth he shall die, Ezek 18... And righteousness is imputed/reckoned to those that do what is right, [TABLE="width: 90%"]
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[TD="width: 20%"][/TD]
[TD]Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 1 John 3-7[/TD]
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[/TABLE]

anyone telling you different is a deceiver, rather it be knowingly or unknowingly....

Let no man decieve you, your righteousness are as filthy rags, As for Gods children, they can't live in sin, Your continued insistence they can just shows your lack of understanding

1 John 2:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. [SUP]4[/SUP]He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [SUP]5 [/SUP]But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. [SUP]6 [/SUP]He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

1 John 3:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. [SUP]8 [/SUP]He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

 

[Meggido]

Because the teaching of conditional salvation, no eternal security, a salvation that requires works and must be maintained by us actually came from the catholic church first!! It's a catholic doctrine. This teaching crept its way into the protestant churches and has been embraced by many churches unfortunately. Infiltration.

The catholic church is Babylonian, just that some of the teachings of Rome have crept into the protestant churches.

Eternal security is not a new doctrine made up by men. It's confirmed in the scriptures. Just that many are following the catholic teachings and not believing what the scriptures say.

By the way, the catholic church even lists eternal security as an anathema.

Interesting comments, especially since it is well know that Perseverance of the Saints and Predestination was first circulated as a defense agaisnt the doctrines of Pelagius by Catholic Priest Augustine of Hippo. Calvin was heavily influenced by the Augustinian tradition>

The very first circulation of Perseverance of the saints[eternal security of the believer] and Predestination was from the Augustine of Hippo who did so to combat what he viewed was heresy and that was what was taught pretty much until him[I think ] and that is Preservation is conditional upon continued faith in Christ; with the possibility of a final apostasy.

So do not tell us that eternal security has been around since Christ, when Church history says otherwise...

 

[dcontroversal]

its very simple; nowhere in the text can one find the transfer of virtues....sin is imputed/reckoned to those that do iniquity. the soul that sinneth he shall die, Ezek 18... And righteousness is imputed/reckoned to those that do what is right, [TABLE="width: 90%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 20%"][/TD]
[TD]Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 1 John 3-7[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

anyone telling you different is a deceiver, rather it be knowingly or unknowingly....

You should study more....and wonder why NO ONE for the most part takes you seriously....

hat shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works

 

[dcontroversal]

Let no man decieve you, your righteousness are as filthy rags, As for Gods children, they can't live in sin, Your continued insistence they can just shows your lack of understanding

1 John 2:
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. [SUP]4[/SUP]He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [SUP]5 [/SUP]But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. [SUP]6 [/SUP]He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

1 John 3:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. [SUP]8 [/SUP]He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

He needs to leave CC and spend a few years in honest study....I guess he just chunks the following verses or maybe his bible has the pages ripped out.......

hat shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works

 

[dcontroversal]

Grace is free, How much cheaper can it get?

We get it you hate cheap grace, But you make it cheaper by trying to add works to it..

Amen...waters down and taints the blood of Christ when one adds self reliance and works.....

 

[Stephen63]

easy grace is not so easy, Proven by the fact the world rejects it. In fact, it is not easy, because it is the last theing the flesh would ever accept. The flesh will never bow down to admit it is hopeless and in need of being saved by another, It will continue to try to save itself until it dies..

Not to mention the people who take Grace, and add works, in order to fight what they deem easy grace, and end up condemning themselves with a false gospel.

Actually, it's the grace you're teaching that's being accepted by the boatloads in these last days.

Matt 7:13“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14“For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are FEW who find it.

Those that believe your version of grace are filling up the mega churches & others by the millions, yet somehow they are the "few"?

In these last days there's a surge of people going to the mega churches & new denominational churches that's accepting this grace.

2 Thessalonians 2
​

(because of the Falling Away)11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

How is it that spiritual people can't put 2 & 2 together & see that the new move of church members to mega churches & traditional churches that have the stage shows replacing worship ARE this apostasy?

How is it that these "christians" that listen to televangelists preach "new grace" & believe sending money is sowing into the kingdom of God are NOT this apostasy we're been reading in the Bible about?

Jesus was plain: few are going thru the strait gate, & the masses are going thru the wide gate.

No amount of twisting can change the math. It is what it is.

So, since you're on the side of the majority, please explain how you're not the "many" of the church going into the apostasy.

Numbers don't lie.

 

[dcontroversal]

Perhaps you need to study what "virtue" really means?

*Luke 8:46 ►
New International Version
But Jesus said, "Someone touched me; I know that power has gone out from me."

New Living Translation
But Jesus said, "Someone deliberately touched me, for I felt healing power go out from me."

English Standard Version
But Jesus said, “Someone touched me, for I perceive that power has gone out from me.”

Berean Study Bible
But Jesus declared, "Someone touched Me, for I know that power has gone out from Me."

Berean Literal Bible
But Jesus said, "Someone touched Me, for I know power has gone out from Me."

New American Standard Bible
But Jesus said, "Someone did touch Me, for I was aware that power had gone out of Me."

King James Bible
And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.

Amongst other truths...such as....

What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works

 

[Ariel82]

Stephen....no matter how you want to label it.,,EG doesn't preach WOF

How is it that these "christians" that listen to televangelists preach "new grace" & believe sending money is sowing into the kingdom of God are NOT this apostasy we're been reading in the Bible about?

That is apostasy...we even have folks who teach it, burn it everyone who believes in eternal security supports false TV wolves who seek to fleece the sheep.

 

[Grace777x70]

Stephen....no matter how you want to label it.,,EG doesn't preach WOF



That is apostasy...we even have folks who teach it, burn it everyone who believes in eternal security supports false TV wolves who seek to fleece the sheep.

I had to laugh at one guy I saw on TV that figured out a verse that was chapter 18 verse 3 and he said that if you sowed $183.00 into this ministry - God would bless you with the anointing that was in that scripture....

The reality is that Christ is the One who has blessed us and qualified us for all things in His finished work work.

 

[Ariel82]

I believe God saved us by his grace when we believed. And we can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.

I also do not believe that the free gift in Eph 2.8-9 is the free gift of God or Jesus's saving faith. I believe the free gift in this verse is salvation. This will be met with resistance by some here, but I do not want it to be a source of contention. I believe saving faith is a form of personal faith.

Since I interpret that a measure of personal saving faith is required to be saved, I also believe that a personal saving faith can be shipwrecked through backsliding, falling out of relationship with Father, falling away due to deception, these are what I believe are by products of failing to abide with Christ and being one with him.

JJesus said in John 17.3-
[SUP]3 [/SUP]This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

That word know means being intimate or to become one with another. It is actually the Greek word for sexual intercourse and it is the same in the Hebrew rendering.

Abiding is very central to the Gospel message and Jesus preached it extensively, abiding is not works we do or practical righteousness. Abiding is resting in what Jesus has done for you, period.

God offers me eternal covenant relationship.
God does not break covenant with me and I do not "lose" my salvation if I do not perform "works" or obey laws or commands, etc"
I stay in eternal covenant relationship with father, because of my love for him based on all that Jesus did for me and he did alone.
God's love keeps me in the relationship, I would never want to leave the love of Father,
God's side of the eternal covenant relationship never fails and is always there.
This is what I define "eternal security" to be.

What happened in 4 days I wonder?

 

[Ariel82]

Stephen....no matter how you want to label it.,,EG doesn't preach WOF



That is apostasy...we even have folks who teach it, burn it everyone who believes in eternal security supports false TV wolves who seek to fleece the sheep.

However not everyone who uses the words "eternal security" is teaching a false licentious doctrine like those false wolves on TV.

 

[PHart]

An interesting fact about Abraham being declared righteous by God Himself is that he was declared to be righteous by God because Abraham "believed God " - 15 years before he "offered up Isaac".

Okay, maybe we're getting somewhere.

Now, there's no need to explain how a person is saved the moment they believe, nor reason to bring OSAS into this. We just need to know your answer to this question:

Would Abraham's faith, had it not offered up Isaac, been able to save him?
James says 'no', because he says faith without works can not save. What do you say?

 

[notuptome]

Okay, maybe we're getting somewhere.

Now, there's no need to explain how a person is saved the moment they believe, nor reason to bring OSAS into this. We just need to know your answer to this question:

Would Abraham's faith, had it not offered up Isaac, been able to save him?
James says 'no', because he says faith without works can not save. What do you say?

Not really you are incorrect. Abrahams faith was proven when he left his family and followed Jehovah God.

Abraham believed God and it, his belief, was accounted to him for righteousness. Belief before he even lifted a finger in service.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[PHart]

Can you answer my question directly?
Would Abraham's faith, had it not offered up Isaac, been able to save him?
Yes, or no?

Not really you are incorrect. Abrahams faith was proven when he left his family and followed Jehovah God.

Abraham believed God and it, his belief, was accounted to him for righteousness. Belief before he even lifted a finger in service.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Actually, it's the grace you're teaching that's being accepted by the boatloads in these last days.

Matt 7:13“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14“For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are FEW who find it.

Those that believe your version of grace are filling up the mega churches & others by the millions, yet somehow they are the "few"?

In these last days there's a surge of people going to the mega churches & new denominational churches that's accepting this grace.

2 Thessalonians 2
​

(because of the Falling Away)11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

How is it that spiritual people can't put 2 & 2 together & see that the new move of church members to mega churches & traditional churches that have the stage shows replacing worship ARE this apostasy?

How is it that these "christians" that listen to televangelists preach "new grace" & believe sending money is sowing into the kingdom of God are NOT this apostasy we're been reading in the Bible about?

Jesus was plain: few are going thru the strait gate, & the masses are going thru the wide gate.

No amount of twisting can change the math. It is what it is.

So, since you're on the side of the majority, please explain how you're not the "many" of the church going into the apostasy.

Numbers don't lie.

Same grace that Jesus and the apostles taught. I wonder how many boatloads have been saved through the teaching of Jesus?

Grace that is inexhaustible as there is always room for one more.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Grace777x70]

Okay, maybe we're getting somewhere.

Now, there's no need to explain how a person is saved the moment they believe, nor reason to bring OSAS into this. We just need to know your answer to this question:

Would Abraham's faith, had it not offered up Isaac, been able to save him?
James says 'no', because he says faith without works can not save. What do you say?

Save Abraham from what?.....Abraham was declared righteous before he ever offered Isaac 15 years later.

James is simply showing how faith looks like because it has an action to it of some sort. James showed in his epistle it was a one-time act of Abraham and Rahab as an example of faith that "works".

There is every reason to bring in the truth that we are eternally secure in Christ in relation to faith and works. The reason is that works-based salvationists try to say that we must "do good works in order to remain saved."

That's an anti-Christ belief system that denies the work of Christ and it actually nullifies the very grace of God from operating in our lives like it was meant to do.

No amount of works saves a person. You have the cart before the horse. Good works are a by-product of the life of Christ in us. Abraham's offering up of Isaac was a product of being declared righteous by God because Abraham believed what "God said about him".

Read this post and you will see what faith with works looks like for being in Christ and He in us in regards to eternal salvation and having obtained eternal redemption for us. Heb. 9:12

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/146296-not-works-744.html#post3157930

Now please answer this question:

If our eternal security and destination is based "on our good works" in order to "stay saved" - name every one of those works that we need to do. Don't leave one out.

How many of these should we do in order to remain saved? Name every one of the good works - we don't want to go to hell.

What if we don't have the same good works one year like we did the last year - does God throw us out of Christ then?

 

[notuptome]

Can you answer my question directly?
Would Abraham's faith, had it not offered up Isaac, been able to save him?
Yes, or no?

Why do you insist on making Abrahams faith contingent on him offering up Isaac? What do you suppose Abraham was trusting in when he raised the knife to sacrifice Isaac?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[PeterJens]

Okay, maybe we're getting somewhere.

Now, there's no need to explain how a person is saved the moment they believe, nor reason to bring OSAS into this. We just need to know your answer to this question:

Would Abraham's faith, had it not offered up Isaac, been able to save him?
James says 'no', because he says faith without works can not save. What do you say?

Abraham offering Isaac is a foreshadow of God giving Christ for the forgiveness of our sins.
And if Abraham had withheld Isaac he would have shown Isaac mattered more than God to
him, which is why the Lord declares Abrahams faith was proven true.

I would add an important point here. If Abraham had refused then his faith would have failed.
Now this is all about choice and a relationship being about our minds, our conceptions and our
choices. The theology being presented here has actually eliminated the mind as being important.

Paul on the other hand focuses on the power of the mind against the passions of the flesh brings
victory when we focus on things of heaven and not of earth.

So if Abraham rebelled in his faith, would he have lost his relationship? Yes, because it is his
faith that brought righteousness to him not his deeds.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Okay, maybe we're getting somewhere.

Now, there's no need to explain how a person is saved the moment they believe, nor reason to bring OSAS into this. We just need to know your answer to this question:

Would Abraham's faith, had it not offered up Isaac, been able to save him?
James says 'no', because he says faith without works can not save. What do you say?

Your wrong

Why? God declared abraham righteous all the way back in Gen 15

Gen 15:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.

Issac was born in Gen 21

Gen 21:
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For Sarah conceived and bore Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And Abraham called the name of his son who was born to him—whom Sarah bore to him—Isaac.

In between this time, Abraham has Ishmael, Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed. (many years)

And then he did not attempt to sacrifice his son until many more years later in Gen 22

So God declared him righteous before any of those things even occurred. You would have him in an unsaved state, not righteous at all. Until he offered up his son, That is just wrong.

Abraham was saved in Gen 3: 15 because he trusted in Gods promise. GOD was confirmed right to do so. by the many works Abraham did, including the offering up of his sin.

James is speaking to people who have not been declared righteous by anyone, Let alone God

They have a self proclaimed faith, in other words, they go around telling people they had faith, they may have said some sinners prayer.

We are told by James they are hearers of the word, Not doers. They act like the word does with all of their sins, in the name of the church, and they have no works,

They are NOT the people who have either said they had faith, or not, Yet walk around doing the will of God. Look like the believers, Have all kinds of works. And like Abraham, Had a living faith, which ALWAYS produces works.

James told them one thing, examine yourself. Can your claimed faith save you? No, I will prove my faith by my works, You prove your LACK of faith by you LACK of work. Your faith is dead.. Can your lifeless faiht save you?

No. Not today, yesterday next year 1000 years from now. A lifeless faith has never, will never and is not saving anyone.

When abraham offered up his sin, He proved how his faith grew, From a man who laughed at God, Who commited adultry to try to do Gods will his own way, to a God who could raise his son from the dead.

We all should see our faith grow this way, BUT WORKS WILL NEVER SAVE US..