The truth behind the Law
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Not being rude, just pointing out what I have seen. If a person wants to to be understood, they are in the wrong place no matter what they say.
I say that as I have said, in as clear as words as I can, that Yeshua is my Savior, And that I follow not to be saved, rather because I am saved. Yet even with that I seen to be condemned by everyone that does not like the truth of my words.
I say that as I have said, in as clear as words as I can, that Yeshua is my Savior, And that I follow not to be saved, rather because I am saved. Yet even with that I seen to be condemned by everyone that does not like the truth of my words.
Amen, and thank you.
I understand one wishing to defend what they see as truth, just as I do. Yet when to go calling names, and placing things on others, then turn around and say the same thing for them self, That I don't get at all. I will be the first to say, that NOT one passage in the Bible gives a commandment to ONLY worship on the 7th day. I give praise and worship everyday. That is why I love to talk about His word. If not for all the great works done by Him, I think you will agree, we would not be able to have open discussion at all.
just asking for you idea on this one. You don't need to answer if you don't wish to.
(side note, I am only asking one person ok)
Is it wise for a person that like myself, finds it ok for others to work out their own salvation between them and HaShem, to even bother with a sight like this one? Or would I be better off to just keep on keeping on with my study group?
That is funny when I think about it. We have church leaders gathering together, and none are from the same church, yet we can talk openly about what the other understands, and then say, "Never see it that way, can you get me some notes for next time, I would really like to look into that." Shot even the RCC prist, is now going to a Baptist church on Sunday Night. I think that shows great understanding, and the man is credit to his faith. We keep telling him if he would do a sermon in English we all go and see whats up.
I understand one wishing to defend what they see as truth, just as I do. Yet when to go calling names, and placing things on others, then turn around and say the same thing for them self, That I don't get at all. I will be the first to say, that NOT one passage in the Bible gives a commandment to ONLY worship on the 7th day. I give praise and worship everyday. That is why I love to talk about His word. If not for all the great works done by Him, I think you will agree, we would not be able to have open discussion at all.
just asking for you idea on this one. You don't need to answer if you don't wish to.
(side note, I am only asking one person ok)
Is it wise for a person that like myself, finds it ok for others to work out their own salvation between them and HaShem, to even bother with a sight like this one? Or would I be better off to just keep on keeping on with my study group?
That is funny when I think about it. We have church leaders gathering together, and none are from the same church, yet we can talk openly about what the other understands, and then say, "Never see it that way, can you get me some notes for next time, I would really like to look into that." Shot even the RCC prist, is now going to a Baptist church on Sunday Night. I think that shows great understanding, and the man is credit to his faith. We keep telling him if he would do a sermon in English we all go and see whats up.
On that note if I may, with out getting my head chopped off. We all should understand that their may well be none believers reading this. What kind of example does this set, and just how can name calling and, fighting over things that to me are clear, ( in that I mean I am being told I am doing things that I am not, and condemned for something , only to find a post from teh same person saying the same thing I have held to from the get go.)
Put your self in the shoes of someone loking to see if if Christ is right ofr them. I know that as I look back over this, and other treads, I think, why would a person look at the actions of as seen on here ever want to become a Believer? I will give to fact their are some on here, that are only looking to find out new understandings, as I am, to see if what they follow might be wrong. Then I get all this crap, and yes i see it as carp, and I think, well looks like I may not so bad off after all. I mean really, I don't need this crap in my life, and I am not the kind of person to just keep repeating my self.
My sister, an atheist, asked me, how I fill my time now that I can't work. I told her about this place. She came over and read just one page of this thread. That my friends was all she needed to tell me, "Now why would I want any part of what you follow? I have been around drug addicts, and drunks, with better behavior."
So I ask, what does say about most of the people posting on this thread?
Put your self in the shoes of someone loking to see if if Christ is right ofr them. I know that as I look back over this, and other treads, I think, why would a person look at the actions of as seen on here ever want to become a Believer? I will give to fact their are some on here, that are only looking to find out new understandings, as I am, to see if what they follow might be wrong. Then I get all this crap, and yes i see it as carp, and I think, well looks like I may not so bad off after all. I mean really, I don't need this crap in my life, and I am not the kind of person to just keep repeating my self.
My sister, an atheist, asked me, how I fill my time now that I can't work. I told her about this place. She came over and read just one page of this thread. That my friends was all she needed to tell me, "Now why would I want any part of what you follow? I have been around drug addicts, and drunks, with better behavior."
So I ask, what does say about most of the people posting on this thread?
I truly don't know why we all just can't get along. We need to accept each other's differences, and each other's different interpretations of things. I feel as though just because one is saved and has been forgiveness for their sins, should they really pretend as if they have never sinned, and pass such judgement on others. I have to say I've definitely didn't expect all this negativity, on a site like this. But I'll always treat you with respect, brother man!
Nicely put. i do applaud your understanding.
That however does lead me to a question that is a bit off Mat. It does in my mind still hold to same teaching, so please if you will follow along.
Rev 14:12 ¶Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
in this passage, does it not look as though both must go hand in hand? To me it does. If you don't see it that way, I am open to your understanding, and it would be a great help.
I do wish to thank you for being one voice of reason in a room full of disorder.
That however does lead me to a question that is a bit off Mat. It does in my mind still hold to same teaching, so please if you will follow along.
Rev 14:12 ¶Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
in this passage, does it not look as though both must go hand in hand? To me it does. If you don't see it that way, I am open to your understanding, and it would be a great help.
I do wish to thank you for being one voice of reason in a room full of disorder.
uh huh
we can see from this actual joust pic here, that both parties can loose
both have lost their seat. riding is all about balance
( so many metaphors I am getting losteded)
btw, I always wanted to try fencing. we need some fencing here.
stop the metaphors!
ok I'm done
we can see from this actual joust pic here, that both parties can loose
both have lost their seat. riding is all about balance
( so many metaphors I am getting losteded)
btw, I always wanted to try fencing. we need some fencing here.
stop the metaphors!
ok I'm done
Hello PerfectlyImperfect,
I don't know why you would say that. What you call "negativity" is actually those in Christ contending for the truth of God's word. Regarding this, Paul said the following:
"I am astonished how quickly you are deserting the One who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—which is not even a gospel. Evidently some people are troubling you and trying to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a divine curse! As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you embraced, let him be under a divine curse!"
We will also treat you with respect, while at the same time contend for the truth of God's word. This whole thing regarding the Law attempts to undermine the free gift of God which comes through faith in Christ. Scripture states that sin gets its power from the Law. We have been set free from it because Christ came and fulfilled the law, fully and completely, satisfying God's requirements for it. Yet, people want to bring it back and put themselves and other under it again.
It is very important for one to understand how he is saved. For Christ said "I am the way, the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father but by Me." That said, anyone who attempting to get to the Father by observing the works of the Law will fail and that because you are not going through Christ, but are trusting in your own works. Trusting in Christ is exactly that: You come to Christ believing that he provided salvation by what He did, not by what we can do.
Jesus met the righteous requirements of the Law, fulfilling it.
Jesus took upon himself the wrath that we deserve as a result of our sins
Jesus paid the penalty for our sins, the righteous for the unrighteous
Therefore to trust in our own efforts as a requirement for salvation, is to say that Christ's sacrifice was insufficient.
This is a very serious matter, because the Lord knows what an individual is truly trusting in. Putting ones trust in anything but Christ for salvation has eternal consequences.
I don't know why you would say that. What you call "negativity" is actually those in Christ contending for the truth of God's word. Regarding this, Paul said the following:
"I am astonished how quickly you are deserting the One who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel—which is not even a gospel. Evidently some people are troubling you and trying to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be under a divine curse! As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you embraced, let him be under a divine curse!"
We will also treat you with respect, while at the same time contend for the truth of God's word. This whole thing regarding the Law attempts to undermine the free gift of God which comes through faith in Christ. Scripture states that sin gets its power from the Law. We have been set free from it because Christ came and fulfilled the law, fully and completely, satisfying God's requirements for it. Yet, people want to bring it back and put themselves and other under it again.
It is very important for one to understand how he is saved. For Christ said "I am the way, the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father but by Me." That said, anyone who attempting to get to the Father by observing the works of the Law will fail and that because you are not going through Christ, but are trusting in your own works. Trusting in Christ is exactly that: You come to Christ believing that he provided salvation by what He did, not by what we can do.
Jesus met the righteous requirements of the Law, fulfilling it.
Jesus took upon himself the wrath that we deserve as a result of our sins
Jesus paid the penalty for our sins, the righteous for the unrighteous
Therefore to trust in our own efforts as a requirement for salvation, is to say that Christ's sacrifice was insufficient.
This is a very serious matter, because the Lord knows what an individual is truly trusting in. Putting ones trust in anything but Christ for salvation has eternal consequences.
Here's how I look at it,
is this the commandment of God?
On the eighth day she shall take two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, and bring them to the priest, to the door of the Tent of Meeting.
if so, then nobody is keeping it.
Rather,
from John 15, This is my commandment, that you love one another, even as I have loved you.
so yes! the commandment of God and faith in Jesus go hand-in-hand!
is this the commandment of God?
On the eighth day she shall take two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, and bring them to the priest, to the door of the Tent of Meeting.
if so, then nobody is keeping it.
Rather,
from John 15, This is my commandment, that you love one another, even as I have loved you.
so yes! the commandment of God and faith in Jesus go hand-in-hand!
Jesus compared physical things to spiritual things in order to give us a better understanding (parables). Instead of a battle of scriptures, like I have done many times, this time I decided to only give an example of the way I understand this passage...
Ok there's a mother making a dress for her daughter's prom. She laid out the pattern and showed it to her daughter. She loved it, and was so looking foreword to her prom. Weeks passed, and the dress was ready. The daughter walked into the room just as the mother was throwing away the pattern. Her daughter watched in horror. With every smash crinkling into a ball, and approaching the trash can closer and closer, her daughter's heart crushed more and more.
"My dress! How could you do that!" the daughter screamed, as she quickly rushed to retrieve the dress pattern. "How could you destroy my dress!" she yelled. The mother replied, "I did not come here to destroy your dress, but to get it done. Until your prom, until you walk in with your gorgeous dress and your gorgeous date, and make a memory that will last for years, I will not destroy or get rid of your dress by any means."
"But I saw you attempt to throw it away with my very own eyes just now!" she sobbed. The mother replied, "I love you, I would never destroy your dress that I worked so long and hard to create for you. Sweetie, this is not your dress, it was only the pattern for your dress. Your real dress is over here..."
She lead her daughter to the real dress, and smiled. "Do you like it?" she asked. "What's that!" her daughter sneered. "It's your prom dress, isn't it beautiful?" "Uhm, mom, that..., well..., it's just not what I've been picturing all this time. "Well what have you been picturing?" Her daughter dashed acrossed the room. She held up the pattern, with a gleam in her eye and a smile on her face. "This!!!" She held it up to her body and swayed back and forth with delight.
Her mother explained that the pattern was never the real dress to come, just like a shadow on a wall is not the real thing- but the thing that causes the shadow is the real thing. "See?" she said as she held her hand up close to the wall. "The shadow is the shape of my hand, but it's not my real hand. It is only a form that is temporary. It goes away when my hand goes away, but until the day I die, or something like an accident happens, my hand will not pass away like the shaddow.
"What are you talking about mom? No offense, but you really make no sense sometimes." The daughter took the pattern and left the room. She stapled the front and back paper patterns together, and wore it to the prom.
THE END
"These things were a shadow of what was to come. The reality however, is found in Christ.To God, the physical way of doing things is not the real way. To God, the spiritual way is the real way. For example, a lady sees a man approaching a door with his hands full of heavy boxes. She responds (responsibility- the ability to respond) by opening the door for him. This is an act of love. "Effort is the evidence of love." But opening the door is a physical way to express love.
So can love exist without physical expression? Yes! It is possible to love without evidence. Let's say the woman was in a wheelchair, and couldn't open the door for him. Wishing she could is still live. Opening the door was just a physical action, the real love came from the heart. So under Moses, when God's law was practiced physically, you could not murder someone. But under Christ, if you hate your brother, you are already guilty of murder. Because love or hate is spiritual (real) whether or not it is carried out physically.
Did Christ nail the law to the cross (Colossians 2:14)? The physical way of doing it, yes! He did not come to destroy God's law, but physical rules were never God's law, but only a representation of it. Love (which is not physical) is God's law. If you love God and your neighbor you won't murder them or steal from them. I could give you physical steps, saying to pick up an egg, raise and lower your arm, crack the egg into a bowl, and flour, sugar, and chocolate chips, etc. Lead to a long list of actions- like where to place your feet in order to walk to the cupboards and fridge to gather ingredients. OR I could simply say, "Make cookie." That covers everything, so you no longer need a list of actions. If you love, then no one has to tell you not to murder, cause through love it's automatic. Therefore love fulfills all of the physical laws of the Old Testament prophets.
We no longer physicalky rest on a physical day- we rest in our hearts and have peace knowing that this life is temporary and we're going to heaven. We no longer sacrifice a physically perfect lamb (which never took away one sin) because we have the real thing- the spiritual Lamb of God.
To go go back to being under Moses is to betray Christ (Romans 7;1-4)- Who has all authority over God's people today (Matthew 28:18).
Ok there's a mother making a dress for her daughter's prom. She laid out the pattern and showed it to her daughter. She loved it, and was so looking foreword to her prom. Weeks passed, and the dress was ready. The daughter walked into the room just as the mother was throwing away the pattern. Her daughter watched in horror. With every smash crinkling into a ball, and approaching the trash can closer and closer, her daughter's heart crushed more and more.
"My dress! How could you do that!" the daughter screamed, as she quickly rushed to retrieve the dress pattern. "How could you destroy my dress!" she yelled. The mother replied, "I did not come here to destroy your dress, but to get it done. Until your prom, until you walk in with your gorgeous dress and your gorgeous date, and make a memory that will last for years, I will not destroy or get rid of your dress by any means."
"But I saw you attempt to throw it away with my very own eyes just now!" she sobbed. The mother replied, "I love you, I would never destroy your dress that I worked so long and hard to create for you. Sweetie, this is not your dress, it was only the pattern for your dress. Your real dress is over here..."
She lead her daughter to the real dress, and smiled. "Do you like it?" she asked. "What's that!" her daughter sneered. "It's your prom dress, isn't it beautiful?" "Uhm, mom, that..., well..., it's just not what I've been picturing all this time. "Well what have you been picturing?" Her daughter dashed acrossed the room. She held up the pattern, with a gleam in her eye and a smile on her face. "This!!!" She held it up to her body and swayed back and forth with delight.
Her mother explained that the pattern was never the real dress to come, just like a shadow on a wall is not the real thing- but the thing that causes the shadow is the real thing. "See?" she said as she held her hand up close to the wall. "The shadow is the shape of my hand, but it's not my real hand. It is only a form that is temporary. It goes away when my hand goes away, but until the day I die, or something like an accident happens, my hand will not pass away like the shaddow.
"What are you talking about mom? No offense, but you really make no sense sometimes." The daughter took the pattern and left the room. She stapled the front and back paper patterns together, and wore it to the prom.
THE END
"These things were a shadow of what was to come. The reality however, is found in Christ.To God, the physical way of doing things is not the real way. To God, the spiritual way is the real way. For example, a lady sees a man approaching a door with his hands full of heavy boxes. She responds (responsibility- the ability to respond) by opening the door for him. This is an act of love. "Effort is the evidence of love." But opening the door is a physical way to express love.
So can love exist without physical expression? Yes! It is possible to love without evidence. Let's say the woman was in a wheelchair, and couldn't open the door for him. Wishing she could is still live. Opening the door was just a physical action, the real love came from the heart. So under Moses, when God's law was practiced physically, you could not murder someone. But under Christ, if you hate your brother, you are already guilty of murder. Because love or hate is spiritual (real) whether or not it is carried out physically.
Did Christ nail the law to the cross (Colossians 2:14)? The physical way of doing it, yes! He did not come to destroy God's law, but physical rules were never God's law, but only a representation of it. Love (which is not physical) is God's law. If you love God and your neighbor you won't murder them or steal from them. I could give you physical steps, saying to pick up an egg, raise and lower your arm, crack the egg into a bowl, and flour, sugar, and chocolate chips, etc. Lead to a long list of actions- like where to place your feet in order to walk to the cupboards and fridge to gather ingredients. OR I could simply say, "Make cookie." That covers everything, so you no longer need a list of actions. If you love, then no one has to tell you not to murder, cause through love it's automatic. Therefore love fulfills all of the physical laws of the Old Testament prophets.
We no longer physicalky rest on a physical day- we rest in our hearts and have peace knowing that this life is temporary and we're going to heaven. We no longer sacrifice a physically perfect lamb (which never took away one sin) because we have the real thing- the spiritual Lamb of God.
To go go back to being under Moses is to betray Christ (Romans 7;1-4)- Who has all authority over God's people today (Matthew 28:18).