Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

God first sought us and gave us a way of reconciliation.
Genesis 3:15

But now, when we sin, we do need to ask forgiveness and then forge ahead.

true, But our forgiveness is not based on confession.. It would be impossible to confess every sin we commit..

 

[Ariel82]

God also said to forgive 70 X 7, and he did not make the brother asking forgiveness as one of the requirements of forgiveness.

Isaiah 43
25 “I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more. 26 Review the past for me, let us argue the matter together; state the case for your innocence.

 

[Ariel82]

true, But our forgiveness is not based on confession.. It would be impossible to confess every sin we commit..

Ephesians 1
7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace

 

[graceNpeace]

Okay, maybe we're getting somewhere.

Now, there's no need to explain how a person is saved the moment they believe, nor reason to bring OSAS into this. We just need to know your answer to this question:

Would Abraham's faith, had it not offered up Isaac, been able to save him?
James says 'no', because he says faith without works can not save. What do you say?

I say that this is putting the cart before the horse!
Works do not save and have never saved.
Works are a natural consequence of faith, but without faith works or actions are meaningless.

18 [FONT=&quot]But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[/FONT][FONT=&quot][d][/FONT][FONT=&quot] works, and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]I will show you my faith by my[/FONT][FONT=&quot][e][/FONT][FONT=&quot] works. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]James 2:18

Only a gross misunderstanding can equate James saying "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]I will show you my faith by my[/FONT][FONT=&quot][e][/FONT][FONT=&quot] works.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]" as stating that works save.
All James is saying is that his faith has a natural outworking.
He is not saying that works are required to save, nor that works are required to keep one saved, no, he is saying that his faith results in works - that is all.

An implication of this is that "faith without works" is not faith at all, because faith naturally results in works (go read Eph 2:10).
Again, James is giving no support to works salvation.

Works are a natural consequence of faith (salvation).
Works do not equal faith(salvation).
There is a world - in fact an eternity - of difference between the last two sentences![/FONT]

 

[Ariel82]

Hebrews 10
17 Then he adds: “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.”

 

[Ariel82]

Matthew 22
28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

 

[UnderGrace]

The judgement and forgiveness of sins happened at the cross.

Matthew 22
28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

 

[oldethennew]

As usual, I'm answering for those reading along.
YOU probably already know.


Forgiveness is when someone does you a wrong. You might be uspet at first and you might not.
The relationship is broken. Then one day you decide that you need to forgive that person of whatever they did.
So you do forgive them.

That is forgiveness. It's something you do. But the relationship is still broken.

When the other person ALSO decides to forgive you, and tells you, and you shake hands and make up...
THAT is reconcilitation. Reconciliation repairs the broken relationship and restores it to the way it was originally.

==================================================
in my 'new walk with Jesus Christ', I have learned/lived, that when I 'forgave' a transgression against myself,
and I must say that I have been challenged to the very limits of any human being, that my relationship
with that person was an absolute 'healing' for myself...for them, it was never my concern...

 

[Grace777x70]

Fallen from grace does not mean "living in sin" as we have been religiously taught or that we hear from the world's media. So and so was caught stealing $100,000,000 from his hedge fund - "he has fallen from grace".

To fall from grace as Paul used the term is to rely on our own works for righteousness - such as "doing good works to remain saved".

The Judaizers in Paul's day came to the Galatians and said "You must be circumcised" once you are in Christ now. It is the "doing of the law in order to achieve and maintain righteousness."

This actually goes back before the Mosaic Covenant to Abraham as a "sign of you are in the covenant now" and God said if they weren't circumcised - they were not in the covenant - so you can understand how Christians could fall for this.

Galatians 5:3-4 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

(Justified by law means - you are justifying or making yourself righteous "by what you do or don't do". The whole law of Moses was based on this.)

[SUP]4 [/SUP] You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

The Greek word for "severed" means "to make idle" or "useless" "to nullify".

This is why those that say we need to do good works in order to stay saved are really nullifying or making useless or idle the grace of God from operating in our lives like it was meant to.

2643. [FONT="Galatia Sil" !important]καταργέω[/FONT] [FONT="Gentium" !important]katargeō[/FONT] verb
Make idle or useless, waste, abolish, cease, do away with, destroy.

[FONT="Gentium" !important]Katargeō[/FONT] means “to abolish” or “to nullify.” In classical Greek [FONT="Gentium" !important]katargeō[/FONT] means “to render inactive, to put out of use, to cancel, bring to nothing” or “do away with.”

Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary, The - The Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary – Zeta-Kappa.

 

[UnderGrace]

Exactly!!

In case you missed it... here it is again......

Fallen from grace does not mean "living in sin" as we have been religiously taught or that we hear from the world's media. So and so was caught stealing $100,000,000 from his hedge fund - "he has fallen from grace".

To fall from grace as Paul used the term is to rely on our own works for righteousness - such as "doing good works to remain saved".

The Judaizers in Paul's day came to the Galatians and said "You must be circumcised" once you are in Christ now. It is the "doing of the law in order to achieve and maintain righteousness."

This actually goes back before the Mosaic Covenant to Abraham as a "sign of you are in the covenant now" and God sais if they weren't circumcised - they were not in the covenant - so you can understand how Christians could fall for this.

Galatians 5:3-4 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

(Justified by law means - you are justifying or making yourself righteous "by what you do or don't do". The whole law of Moses was based on this.)

[SUP]4 [/SUP] You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

The Greek word for "severed" means "to make idle" or "useless" "to nullify".

This is why those that say we need to do good works in order to stay saved are really nullifying or making useless or idle the grace of God from operating in our lives like it was meant to.

2643. [FONT=&quot]καταργέω[/FONT] [FONT=&quot]katargeō[/FONT] verb
Make idle or useless, waste, abolish, cease, do away with, destroy.

[FONT=&quot]Katargeō[/FONT] means “to abolish” or “to nullify.” In classical Greek [FONT=&quot]katargeō[/FONT] means “to render inactive, to put out of use, to cancel, bring to nothing” or “do away with.”

Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary, The - The Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary – Zeta-Kappa.

 

[oldethennew]

God first sought us and gave us a way of reconciliation.
Genesis 3:15

But now, when we sin, we do need to ask forgiveness and then forge ahead.

=========================================================

we both absolutely agree that we must 'repent' and then 'forge ahead' in our Love and Respect
for our Holy Saviour, who is sitting on the right hand of God as our Intercessor for our,
hopefully, daily 'over-coming' of our 'old-mans-ways', as our new lives ways have become our
new priorities in serving and pleasing Him in each and every thing that we must do to
become a member of His Holy family for ETERNITY...

 

[FranC]

==================================================
in my 'new walk with Jesus Christ', I have learned/lived, that when I 'forgave' a transgression against myself,
and I must say that I have been challenged to the very limits of any human being, that my relationship
with that person was an absolute 'healing' for myself...for them, it was never my concern...

This is what forgiveness is all about.
Jesus was a really great psychiatrist.
He knew we had to love ourselves or we could love no one else.
He knew we had to forgive ourselves or we could forgive no one else.
And He knew that forgiving was as much for us as the other person. It lifts a great weight and frees us up to love again.

And once you forgive someone, what they do with it is up to them.
You've done your part. You're free. Jesus intends to make you free to love.

Forgiveness had two parts.
At first we feel hurt and maybe some time must pass.
Then forgiveness is a matter of our WILL. We will to forgive that person.
This is good. After some time and before we even realize it, the forgiveness has travelled to the heart
And we are free from any bad feeling toward that person.

As far as Good is concerned , we have forgiven when we Will it. It is an intention.

Good night Oldthenew...

 

[Grace777x70]

".

To fall from grace as Paul used the term is to rely on our own works for righteousness - such as "doing good works to remain saved".





[SUP]4 [/SUP] You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

The Greek word for "severed" means "to make idle" or "useless" "to nullify".

This is why those that say we need to do good works in order to stay saved are really nullifying or making useless or idle the grace of God from operating in our lives like it was meant to.

QUOTE]

And Paul "did not say" that the Galatians were not saved or in Christ anymore - just that their own attempts to do works to create or maintain righteousness would "nullify or make useless" the grace of God that is in Christ and His finished work on the cross and resurrection from operating in their lives like it was meant to.

Paul was very militant at protecting the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ from the "doing of things in order to be righteous".

The grace of God in Christ will manifest itself in our lives in the doing of good works which He has prepared for us to walk in - as we live by relying on Him and what He has already done for us. Eph. 2:10

But we must have Christ Himself as central in all things. He is the Savior.

We must always have the horse before the cart. The "horse" being the righteousness of God in Christ and that we are a new creation - created in righteousness and holiness. This righteousness comes as a "gift" - not of any good works to create it or maintain it.

 

[UnderGrace]

FranC,

I can state what I believe but I am wondering if you are going to answer my question... so I am re-posting since this is a fast moving thread.

Sin was a gift really, I did not ask for it....did you?

“all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23) sin entered the world through Adam, death follows sin, death comes to all people, all people sin because they inherit sin from Adam.

Let me ask you something.....

Can you by your own effort "out will" Sin or Death?

I'll be waiting.....

Oh by the way I do believe we cannot out sin grace (if we have inherited eternal life) and we are saved no matter what!

God may or may not choose to intervene in a person's life but that is His arena not ours to judge.

Grace will correct me if I'm wrong.

Grace believes that once someone is saved, they cannot lose that salvation NO MATTER WHAT.
I thought you knew this.

I do not agree with this and, quite frankly, it is NOT BIBLICAL, no matter what the new, modern thinkers think.
I won't be posting anymore scripture and probably will be having to leave here again soon.

I do hope you come to understand what Grace believes, and also Dcon and also EG, and Others.

 

[PHart]

Save Abraham from what?.....Abraham was declared righteous before he ever offered Isaac 15 years later.

James is simply showing how faith looks like because it has an action to it of some sort. James showed in his epistle it was a one-time act of Abraham and Rahab as an example of faith that "works".

There is every reason to bring in the truth that we are eternally secure in Christ in relation to faith and works. The reason is that works-based salvationists try to say that we must "do good works in order to remain saved."

That's an anti-Christ belief system that denies the work of Christ and it actually nullifies the very grace of God from operating in our lives like it was meant to do.

No amount of works saves a person. You have the cart before the horse. Good works are a by-product of the life of Christ in us. Abraham's offering up of Isaac was a product of being declared righteous by God because Abraham believed what "God said about him".

Read this post and you will see what faith with works looks like for being in Christ and He in us in regards to eternal salvation and having obtained eternal redemption for us. Heb. 9:12

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/146296-not-works-744.html#post3157930

Now please answer this question:

If our eternal security and destination is based "on our good works" in order to "stay saved" - name every one of those works that we need to do. Don't leave one out.

How many of these should we do in order to remain saved? Name every one of the good works - we don't want to go to hell.

What if we don't have the same good works one year like we did the last year - does God throw us out of Christ then?

Well, let's see.
You didn't answer my question.
You're grasping to redefine a word in the Biblical text.
And you're harping on a subject that I have not even addressed.
That's three strikes, you're out.

I'll give you time for me to see you differently, but I consider people who discuss the Bible this way to be not saved. And I detest talking to unbelievers. I did it for years and I'm done with it.

Actually, what you are is a narcissist. No, not in the Donald Trump kind of way, but in the interpersonal relationship kind of way. They are among the most detestable people to try to co-exist with. I don't do it when I have the choice not to.

 

[UnderGrace]

You must have a difficult time sharing the Gospel since that requires speaking to unbelievers?

Well, let's see.
You didn't answer my question.
You're grasping to redefine a word in the Biblical text.
And you're harping on a subject that I have not even addressed.
That's three strikes, you're out.

I'll give you time for me to see you differently, but I consider people who discuss the Bible this way to be not saved. And I detest talking to unbelievers. I did it for years and I'm done with it.

Actually, what you are is a narcissist. No, not in the Donald Trump kind of way, but in the interpersonal relationship kind of way. They are among the most detestable people to try to co-exist with. I don't do it when I have the choice not to.

 

[dcontroversal]

Well, let's see.
You didn't answer my question.
You're grasping to redefine a word in the Biblical text.
And you're harping on a subject that I have not even addressed.
That's three strikes, you're out.

I'll give you time for me to see you differently, but I consider people who discuss the Bible this way to be not saved. And I detest talking to unbelievers. I did it for years and I'm done with it.

Actually, what you are is a narcissist. No, not in the Donald Trump kind of way, but in the interpersonal relationship kind of way. They are among the most detestable people to try to co-exist with. I don't do it when I have the choice not to.

Nice Christ like biblical perspective.....good thing Jesus did not think that way about you pal.....what a crying shame!

 

[FranC]

=========================================================

we both absolutely agree that we must 'repent' and then 'forge ahead' in our Love and Respect
for our Holy Saviour, who is sitting on the right hand of God as our Intercessor for our,
hopefully, daily 'over-coming' of our 'old-mans-ways', as our new lives ways have become our
new priorities in serving and pleasing Him in each and every thing that we must do to
become a member of His Holy family for ETERNITY...

AMEN!

Pleasing Him is the way we are to live. Perfect!

God loves that we love Him. It's the reason He made us.
God IS Love and love needs to be shared.
When we fall, no need to dwell on it as the enemy would like.
We declare our love for our Lord and continue happily in our walk with Him,
Certain of His love for us.

 

[FranC]

FranC,

I can state what I believe but I am wondering if you are going to answer my question... so I am re-posting since this is a fast moving thread.

Sin was a gift really, I did not ask for it....did you?

“all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23) sin entered the world through Adam, death follows sin, death comes to all people, all people sin because they inherit sin from Adam.

Let me ask you something.....

Can you by your own effort "out will" Sin or Death?

I'll be waiting.....

Oh by the way I do believe we cannot out sin grace (if we have inherited eternal life) and we are saved no matter what!

God may or may not choose to intervene in a person's life but that is His arena not ours to judge.

Please ask in a different way.
I don't know what you mean.

 

[dcontroversal]

You must have a difficult time sharing the Gospel since that requires speaking to unbelievers?

His statement is one of the most anti-biblical, anti-Christian statements I have ever heard come from a professed believer......Jesus ate with publicans, sinners and whores and had no problem in talking with and or engaging believers....what a hypocritical self serving pompous statement........