Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

Yep....try and be saved by keeping the law will get you severed from the Covenant of grace.

You can keep the law and be okay. In fact the law is good when used rightly.

However, if you believe that your keeping of the law saves you.,,,then you have fallen from grace.

There is only one reason you would leave a gospel of grace and return to law.

You never had faith in Grace to begin with, Your faith has always been in law.. That's why Paul and hebrews both say, you will never repent once you go back. Your faiht is even stronger in law once you return, it will never be broken again.

 

[Grace777x70]

i'm sorry peter, sometimes I forget that you do not use the entire Biblical definition of sin, you just use a partial version of it. this is why you so flippantly speak of being ' free from sin ".

as far as " walking like the world and saying this is acceptable behavior" , go find one post where this was said. if not, stop making things up.

"walking like the world" is believing that we can by our own self-effort obtain righteousness and life. It comes in many forms. Lawlessness is one of the forms.

True lawlessness is the working of iniquity which shows itself in trying to maintain our own righteousness by what we do or don't do - instead on relying on what Christ has already done and living from His life in and through us.

 

[gb9]

"walking like the world" is believing that we can by our own self-effort obtain righteousness and life. It comes in many forms. Lawlessness is one of the forms.

True lawlessness is the working of iniquity which shows itself in trying to maintain our own righteousness by what we do or don't do - instead on relying on what Christ has already done and living from His life in and through us.

well, sadly, the sky is still blue..........

 

[Stephen63]

Galatians 5:
1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. 2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace

​Self-explanatory.

"Severed from Christ" implies attachment, proving true salvation. Sinners were never attached to Christ to begin with.
"Fallen from grace" implies you had to be there first. There can be no other meaning but this.

 

[FranC]

Talking about baggage (general statement here)....

I have found that people raised in the church are less likely to read the Bible for themselves or question what their church teaches.

Many people have shallow roots based off of reading Sunday school children's bible stories, rote prayers and rituals that don't really have any meaning for them.

Don't get me wrong. I love the traditions of the church and the rich symbolism behind each act.

But communion for example. Many kids and adults don't take the time to seriously thank Jesus for DYING ON THE CROSS for us.

People shelter their kids from the stark truth of nails being hammered into His hands and him hanging their in pain for hours.

I always try and challenge my kids to think beyond what is normally taught.

Ask them questions like "why only three wise men"?

Anything to get them to search the Bible themselves and think and pray.

Teaching a child how to pray and trust that God hears and answers , I believe is more important than 100 other doctrines perfectly understood and taught.

I also believe that the importance of "taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ" and "taming your tongue" is an often neglected discipline by most people.

You think there were only three wise men?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

"Severed from Christ" implies attachment, proving true salvation. Sinners were never attached to Christ to begin with.
"Fallen from grace" implies you had to be there first. There can be no other meaning but this.

Yes there can.

God did not save a person who KNEW would walk away and return to law. (I love you all try to humanize God, as if he is limited)

They were severed from Christ because if they walk away, any hope of coming to christ would then be done away with

 

[PeterJens]

You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
Gal 5:4

Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted.
Gal 6:1

For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.
Gal 5:14-15

 

[Ariel82]

i'm sorry peter, sometimes I forget that you do not use the entire Biblical definition of sin, you just use a partial version of it. this is why you so flippantly speak of being ' free from sin ".

as far as " walking like the world and saying this is acceptable behavior" , go find one post where this was said. if not, stop making things up.

I was thinking that folks who knew Judas was stealing money could have figured out that he might be a wolf in sheep's clothing, but decided ....mmmeeeh, do I really want to engage in dialog with him today?

There will always be mysteries, for instance Judas walked among the disciples but they only
knew he was lost when he betrayed Christ.

Nah because then we might actually talk about the true mysteries of faith like how the Holy spirit leads us or how Christ blood cleanses us of sin...instead of focus on how deceived folks are, we might actually focus on God's truth,

 

[Ariel82]

2 Timothy 4:2 ►
New International Version
Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction.

New Living Translation
Preach the word of God. Be prepared, whether the time is favorable or not. Patiently correct, rebuke, and encourage your people with good teaching.

English Standard Version
preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.

Berean Study Bible
Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and encourage with every form of patient instruction.

Berean Literal Bible
Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; convict, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and instruction.

New American Standard Bible
preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.

King James Bible
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

 

[PeterJens]

This is where different ideas about what it means to walk blamelessly before the Lord come
in.

Paul expected people who are called to walk righteously, day in day out.
Paul appears to talk about obvious sin, which can be resolved and deeper issues of the heart,
which only God sees and will judge at the appropriate time.

There is a large difference between defeat, and just not seeing evil and we are called to shun
this, and just walking like the world and say this is acceptable behaviour.

There will always be mysteries, for instance Judas walked among the disciples but they only
knew he was lost when he betrayed Christ.

What is obviously wrong is people aware of sin in their lives and just accepting this as normal.

For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
Rom 8:13

so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.
Rom 1:28

Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things.
col 3:2

For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life.
1 Thess 4:7

i'm sorry peter, sometimes I forget that you do not use the entire Biblical definition of sin, you just use a partial version of it. this is why you so flippantly speak of being ' free from sin ".

as far as " walking like the world and saying this is acceptable behavior" , go find one post where this was said. if not, stop making things up.

My friend, walking as the world walks, is walking in rebellion against Christs ways.
The binary division is walking in obedience to Christ or walking as the world walks.

Please describe to me another alternative because I do not see one?
Now let me quote Paul about sin

Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?
By no means!
We are those who have died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?
Rom 6:1-2

It strikes me either you agree with Paul and you have died to sin, or you are still living
in it.

So my friend I have nothing to prove, it is your words that show where you stand and
believe.

If God declares His people Holy, who are you to condemn them?

Are you a temple of the Holy Spirit, Holy and pure or something else?
Now think about your response because Paul is declaring as believers we are cleansed
pure and holy, so it makes me wonder if you understand what he actually meant?

 

[PeterJens]

Disbelief.

Cleansing of the heart, mind and soul by Christ blood is a subjective experience that only
each individual can testify to themselves. No one else can go into their heads and say,
yes this has happened.

So it relies on the spiritual reality occurring and the believer testifying to its reality.

Now if the basics of this cleansing like repentance, working through the evil acts of the heart,
has not happened then it is not surprising if people neither experience cleansing or feel holy
and redeemed, because probably this has not occurred.

Now from this place of compromise, to get angry and abuse others who testify to something
different does not make their experience invalid or yours not a partial reality of the truth in
Christ. In fact it actually emphasises everything in this realm is subjective and limited by our
own emotional, intellectual and spiritual perspectives.

It is like calling someone evil, because ones belief system says they must be, even when all
the indicators imply this is not the case. Which do you believe? I would hold the belief system
is flawed.

 

[Ariel82]

"Severed from Christ" implies attachment, proving true salvation. Sinners were never attached to Christ to begin with.
"Fallen from grace" implies you had to be there first. There can be no other meaning but this.

The nation of Israel was attached to Christ and had God's grace until the time they rejected Jesus as their Messiah,

There is a teaching, which I haven't decided if is true are not, that all children born into Christian families are part of the Body until the age of accountability. At that time they are given a choice like Israel to accept salvation through Jesus or follow their own lust and the world's temptations away from God.

I believe many people are kept by the Law and then given a choice to believe the Gospel and become born again believers, sealed by the Holy spirit.

After being born again,they have to examine all their beliefs and see if they were actually Biblically based or wisdom from the world.

Peter tells us to add to our faith, virtue (the indwellinv Holy Spirit power to change hearts and minds) to virtue add knowledge (as the Holy spirit teaches and chastens every born again believer) we add to that self control (because we will fall as we learn to walk with God) we add perservance (eventually we begin to see fruit and we call that) godliness (or proper righteousness of you read Martin Luther) to godliness we add brotherly kindness (this ability to see others struggling and having the love and compassion to bear their burdens and cover there sins in forgiveness and grace instead of condemnation) finally we have agape love (the ability to not only love our siblings or those who love is but also to love and bless our enemies as Jesus loves us while we were sinners in rebellion to God)

Maturity in Christ.
.something I hope everyone strives to obtain.

 

[Ariel82]

I would hold that humans are flawed sinners in need of a Savior.

May one day all look upon us and say.."those people are truly children of God for I see Christ like love and mercy in all that they do and say. Tell us what we must do to be saved?"

 

[Ariel82]

The theme for VBS this year was God's good gifts: comfort, patience, peace, love and joy.

The story Friday centered around these Bible verses and told us that we can have joy even in the midst of our trials.

Acts 16
25About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them, 26and suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken. And immediately all the doors were opened, and everyone’s bonds were unfastened. 27When the jailer woke and saw that the prison doors were open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. 28But Paul cried with a loud voice, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here.” 29And the jailere called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. 30Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. 34Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.

 

[PeterJens]

"walking like the world" is believing that we can by our own self-effort obtain righteousness and life. It comes in many forms. Lawlessness is one of the forms.

True lawlessness is the working of iniquity which shows itself in trying to maintain our own righteousness by what we do or don't do - instead on relying on what Christ has already done and living from His life in and through us.

Walking like the world is very specific in biblical terms.

The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:19-21

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Gal 5:22-24

The continual drip drip of being righteous in behaviour is evil, is just the enemies propoganda.

Evil is evil behaviour as described as works of the flesh.
Righteous behaviour is walking in the Spirit and displaying the fruits of the Spirit.

We are saved through faith, which is displayed by our righteous behaviour.

If a believer lives in the ways of the flesh they will never inherit the kingdom of God.

The lie being preached is belief saves and behaviour is irrelevant, but as Paul says
"I warn you, as I did before" those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God"

Here we are years later, still people deny Pauls warning and obvious teaching.

Why is this? Because they have believed a lie and are deceived by the enemy.

 

[Stephen63]

Galatians 5:
1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. 2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace

​Self-explanatory.

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(4) Christ is become of no effect unto you.—Literally, Ye were (or, more idiomatically, are) abolished, made nothing, from Christ; a condensed form of expression for, Ye are made nothing (unchristianised), and cut off from Christ. Your relations to Christ are cancelled, and you are Christians no longer.Are justified.—Strictly, seek to be justified.Ye are fallen from grace.—The Christian is justified by an act of grace, or free, unearned favour, on the part of God. He who seeks for justification in any other way loses this grace. Grace is not here a state or disposition in the believer, but a divine act or relation.

 

[PeterJens]

There is only one reason you would leave a gospel of grace and return to law.

You never had faith in Grace to begin with, Your faith has always been in law.. That's why Paul and hebrews both say, you will never repent once you go back. Your faiht is even stronger in law once you return, it will never be broken again.

This world of layered ideas is difficult to decode.
Let me focus of the key ethic being preached. Believe "X" and you are ok.
Fail to believe "X" and you are doomed.

"X" is so brilliant you would only appear to leave "X" because you never really accepted it.

I have met people who have had fads, complexes, trauma, hobbies, revelations etc.
You begin to understand people do things for many different reasons and have many different
perspectives on every subject. In fact it is often so involved, it can sometimes be hard to
generalise.

What you can generalise is binary simplicity is usually wrong. And binary belief systems are usually
constructed to resolve another problem the group find too hard to grapple with, so a binary summary
removes the conflict.

One thing I know from Moses, Peter, Paul, Elijah, Jesus none of this is binary or simple, but many
layered, and failure crops up even with the most blessed and closest to God.

So once you start taking illusion or something you guess at and then condemn ones guess, you
have lost the plot and become a victim of a belief system, and are not living in the light.

 

[FranC]

This world of layered ideas is difficult to decode.
Let me focus of the key ethic being preached. Believe "X" and you are ok.
Fail to believe "X" and you are doomed.

"X" is so brilliant you would only appear to leave "X" because you never really accepted it.

I have met people who have had fads, complexes, trauma, hobbies, revelations etc.
You begin to understand people do things for many different reasons and have many different
perspectives on every subject. In fact it is often so involved, it can sometimes be hard to
generalise.

What you can generalise is binary simplicity is usually wrong. And binary belief systems are usually
constructed to resolve another problem the group find too hard to grapple with, so a binary summary
removes the conflict.

One thing I know from Moses, Peter, Paul, Elijah, Jesus none of this is binary or simple, but many
layered, and failure crops up even with the most blessed and closest to God.

So once you start taking illusion or something you guess at and then condemn ones guess, you
have lost the plot and become a victim of a belief system, and are not living in the light.

Is this what I would term putting God into a box?

Some think that if you don't believe precisely ad they do, you are lost.
As if God could be that little.
As if they determine who is saved.
As if they make up the salvation rules...

 

[Stephen63]

Matt 6:14“For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.15“But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

So much for forever forgiven.

 

[dcontroversal]

Well since NO ONE in this chatroom thinks God does not convict us of sin.

one can only ask who you are talking about?

Oh thats right, Slander away, It seems to be your groups modus operendi.

I know I was thinking the same thing......who states that....and their coined phrases like hyper grace, greasy grace, etc....makes me think of Goebbels and his Nazi propaganda.....nothing but bloviating and a feeble attempt by religionists to undermine Jesus and his work in favor of their burger king theology and give the dog a bone heresies......