Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

Assuming Abraham did not lose faith in the promises of God between the time he was justified by faith and the time God would test him he would remain justified in the sight of God. Abraham would not be accountable for a test that God did not even give him the opportunity to take.

The relevant question is, "would Abraham be saved if he did not offer Isaac up when God told him to do that?" According to James, the answer is 'no'. Because James says, using Abraham as the example, that faith that doesn't act/work can not save. Now for the part where everybody becomes stone deaf: Not because Abraham's actions somehow MADE him righteous in God's sight, but rather because his actions SHOW him to have the faith that makes a person righteous in God's sight. If you can't show the righteousness of God in your actions you ain't got the righteousness of God you think you have. And so it is in that way that works are necessary to be saved.

Now everybody can post as if I just got done saying works earn a person their righteousness. Have at it, folks, lol.

So God made a HUGE mistake in declaring Abraham righteous, when he declaired outright that abraham had faith.

Thank you for showing me you have little faith in who God is,,

It seems to me God tested Abraham many times,

He said you will have a child through your wife, Abraham failed the test, He committed adultery, and the the middle east has been at war ever since as a result.

Abraham failed the test of believing God twice, when he made his wife say she was his sister. Where was abrahams faith then that God would keep his promise and he would have a son through Sarah? That God would not allow anything to happen to Sarah, because he still had to keep his promise?

Yet Abraham proved his faith many times, As proven by the book of Hebrews.

Heb 11:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. [SUP]9 [/SUP]By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; [SUP]10 [/SUP]for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

These were not enough to prove his faith? According to God they were, Faith works, It does not sit still, But faith is not perfect, Proven by the fact Abraham failed at faith many times.


Yet you want to say if Abraham did not do something decades later he would not have been saved?

Again, If anything, The offering up of Issac proves how much Abraham's faith grew, Not that he had faith. He proved his faith LONG before he went to offer his son, And if he had failed? He would have been just as saved as when he commited adultry, or tried to deceive people about his wife to protect her.

Again, James said faith WITHOUT WORKS,, Abraham had MANY WORKS before he went to offer his son, He already PROVED HIS FAITH

James is not written to people who have true faith, It is written to people who have dead faith.

 

[graceNpeace]

So God made a HUGE mistake in declaring Abraham righteous, when he declaired outright that abraham had faith.

Thank you for showing me you have little faith in who God is,,

It seems to me God tested Abraham many times,

He said you will have a child through your wife, Abraham failed the test, He committed adultery, and the the middle east has been at war ever since as a result.

Abraham failed the test of believing God twice, when he made his wife say she was his sister. Where was abrahams faith then that God would keep his promise and he would have a son through Sarah? That God would not allow anything to happen to Sarah, because he still had to keep his promise?

Yet Abraham proved his faith many times, As proven by the book of Hebrews.

Heb 11:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. [SUP]9 [/SUP]By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; [SUP]10 [/SUP]for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

These were not enough to prove his faith? According to God they were, Faith works, It does not sit still, But faith is not perfect, Proven by the fact Abraham failed at faith many times.


Yet you want to say if Abraham did not do something decades later he would not have been saved?

Again, If anything, The offering up of Issac proves how much Abraham's faith grew, Not that he had faith. He proved his faith LONG before he went to offer his son, And if he had failed? He would have been just as saved as when he commited adultry, or tried to deceive people about his wife to protect her.

Again, James said faith WITHOUT WORKS,, Abraham had MANY WORKS before he went to offer his son, He already PROVED HIS FAITH

James is not written to people who have true faith, It is written to people who have dead faith.

Extremely insightful!

 

[willybob]

the own merit starw-man to justify a forgone conclusion of iniquity. Lets tear down this stronghold and expose it for what it really is...

To clear up this own merit fable and the grasping for straws. Knowing this first; no one can forgive past sins except God, its all the mercy of God, so don't worry about earning your own salvation. Its impossible…. Secondly; everyone is doing works of their own merit 24/7, either the woks of iniquity, or the works of godliness..So lets put to rest this own merit straw-man, it becomes very tiresome to those with discernment. It sounds good to an undiscerning ear, but its all fluff to one who rightly divides the word of truth..our works are infact based on our own merit, rather they be evil or good...

 

[willybob]

So God made a HUGE mistake in declaring Abraham righteous, when he declaired outright that abraham had faith.

Thank you for showing me you have little faith in who God is,,

It seems to me God tested Abraham many times,

He said you will have a child through your wife, Abraham failed the test, He committed adultery, and the the middle east has been at war ever since as a result.

Abraham failed the test of believing God twice, when he made his wife say she was his sister. Where was abrahams faith then that God would keep his promise and he would have a son through Sarah? That God would not allow anything to happen to Sarah, because he still had to keep his promise?

Yet Abraham proved his faith many times, As proven by the book of Hebrews.

Heb 11:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. [SUP]9 [/SUP]By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; [SUP]10 [/SUP]for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

These were not enough to prove his faith? According to God they were, Faith works, It does not sit still, But faith is not perfect, Proven by the fact Abraham failed at faith many times.


Yet you want to say if Abraham did not do something decades later he would not have been saved?

Again, If anything, The offering up of Issac proves how much Abraham's faith grew, Not that he had faith. He proved his faith LONG before he went to offer his son, And if he had failed? He would have been just as saved as when he commited adultry, or tried to deceive people about his wife to protect her.

Again, James said faith WITHOUT WORKS,, Abraham had MANY WORKS before he went to offer his son, He already PROVED HIS FAITH

James is not written to people who have true faith, It is written to people who have dead faith.

Abraham did the deeds of faith (by his own merit) which proved his worthiness....let your works prove your faith, bring forth meat/works worthy of repentance....

 

[graceNpeace]

Abraham did the deeds of faith (by his own merit) which proved his worthiness....let your works prove your faith, bring forth meat/works worthy of repentance....

Complete rubbish!

1What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?[a]2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. Rom 4:1-4

I am sorry Paul contradicts you!
His merit got him nowhere, faith on the other hand...."Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” ​Rom 4:3

And how does Paul finish this little vignette:

4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. Rom 4:4

OUCH!

 

[willybob]

it seems that the contentious holiness protesters perceive that obeying God from heart purity is somehow earning ones salvation....not knowing that its our contribution to the fellowship with God....as the apostle Paul said on 3 occasions, its man working together with God. synergy..only by this dynamic can man enter into a relationship of love with God, (its called covenant); for the relationship of mutual love cannot be obtain by any other means...They despise the fact that the new covenant is conditional, so they parrot the Penal Substitution fable and the not of works straw-man theology, foolishly not knowing that Paul was speaking of religious works that are of none effect, not the works of obedience.

 

[mailmandan]

Assuming Abraham did not lose faith in the promises of God between the time he was justified by faith and the time God would test him he would remain justified in the sight of God.

Remain justified? Of all who are justified, how many of them will be glorified? Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. ALL of them.

The relevant question is, "would Abraham be saved if he did not offer Isaac up when God told him to do that?" According to James, the answer is 'no'. Because James says, using Abraham as the example, that faith that doesn't act/work can not save.

If Abraham would not have offered up Isaac on the altar, then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith, but that was not the case. The faith that doesn't act/work at all demonstrates that it's a dead faith and not genuine faith and that's why it cannot save. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6. If Abraham would have dropped dead of a heart attack after he believed God and his faith was accounted for righteousness but before he had the chance to offer up Isaac on the altar, he still would have been saved because of his faith.

 

[Grace777x70]

banana, coconut cream, or pecan, a good hot apple pie with lots of vanilla ice cream works also?

Yes...Bless the Lord forever! Tomorrow is "re-feed day". I'll be eating as much as that stuff as I can.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I'm a bit rusty on some history, but I did read about the Jesuit involvement in the counter reformation.

I think some (if not all) Lutheran churches even give out the catholic eucharist, and they teach the catholic view of transubstantiation? Interesting too is that every lutheran I've come across is also a preterist, and this view of the scriptures basically defends Rome, and hides her identity as the whore of Babylon. I think the lutheran church is one of her daughter churches.

2 Peter 2 and Jude mention ungodly men creeping in unnoticed, bringing in destructive heresies, so my thinking is this sounds like infiltration also in some of the churches.

I went to a Lutheran funeral. They do do the eucharist, only it is not limited as in the catholic church only to certain people. I can say I was saddened that the gospel was not given, Especially since I am not sure my nephew is saved. And was hoping the death of his mother could shake him, But a lost opportunity.

I will nto say what their gospel is, I do not know. so will not guess.. I know my brother in law loves it,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Also... the thief on the cross who had faith. No works added.

I think the fact he stood up to the other thief, and professed jesus as lord was a work. Not that I htink that saved him, But I think it is through his faith that gave him the power to save that.

Faith saves, and faith works.. But works do not save or add to salvation.

 

[willybob]

Complete rubbish!

1What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?[a]2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. Rom 4:1-4

I am sorry Paul contradicts you!
His merit got him nowhere, faith on the other hand...."Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” ​Rom 4:3

And how does Paul finish this little vignette:

4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. Rom 4:4

OUCH!

again Paul is speaking of the religious works, and not works of obedience...which must seem like ouch to you...do you really believe that obeying God and doing what is right from heart purity is works of ordnances. Abraham obeyed God and it was reckoned to him as righteous, by preforming the deeds of faith. He was the only one seeking the one true God in Gen. 12, and was not worshiping sticks, and rocks etc. like his ancestors, even his father Terah served other gods,,,so by preforming the deeds of faith He obeyed God and left the Or of Chaldea..its impossible to separate a saving faith from good works, they go hand in hand..

 

[graceNpeace]

again Paul is speaking of the religious works, and not works of obedience...

Please prove this with Scripture!

 

[mailmandan]

Also... the thief on the cross who had faith. No works added.

Amen! The real question is at what POINT does Jesus save us? At the point we place our faith in Jesus for salvation or at some time later, after we accomplish a list of works? It's at the point we place our faith in Jesus for salvation. Jesus knows the quality of our faith before we perform any further acts of obedience after faith. He knows whether or not we are trusting in Him alone for salvation.

In Matthew 27:39-43 (the story of the thief on the cross), we see that those who passed by, along with the chief priests scribes and elders blashemed, mocked and shook their heads at Jesus and EVEN THE ROBBERS WHO WERE CRUCIFIED WITH HIM REVILED HIM WITH THE SAME THING. Yet, moments later, we see that one of the thieves had a "change of mind" (repentance) placed his faith in Christ for salvation and was saved (Luke 23:40-43).

*Now how many good works did that thief accomplish on the cross in those final moments before he died? If the thief would have been allowed to live, I believe that we would have seen a changed life in the thief demonstrated by good works, but the point is that he was saved through faith, apart from whatever works he would have accomplished later.

In Matthew 12:37, Jesus said - For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words reveal the state of our hearts. Words will be evidences (FOR OR AGAINST) having faith in Jesus or a lack of faith.

Luke 23:39 - Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, "If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us." - by your words you will be condemned.

Luke 23:40-42 - But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong." Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom." - by your words you will be justified.

 

[graceNpeace]

...Abraham obeyed God and it was reckoned to him as righteous ...

I am sorry Scripture is emphatic on this:

3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Rom 4:3

Abraham was justified by faith!
Works did NOT justify him.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

EG,

No time. I'm only answering two posts.
Yours is one because, once again, you accuse me of doing something I DO NOT DO.
And that is: Putting Words In People's Mouths.


Up above, highlighted, you say that for someone to lose faith, God would have to be UNtrustworhty, because, apparently you believe it is HE who keeps us in faith.


SO...

Fran said, to which you answered that I'm putting words in your mouth:

"If God forces us to have faith, how do we freely love Him?"



To which YOU replied:

"We can have faith, Then God lets us down, So we stop having faith.."


So that makes TWO TIMES that you said that you believe God cannot take away our faith because He would be...

1. UNTRUSTWORTHY

2. LETTING US DOWN



So, you see EG, YOU said we can't lose faith in God because HE would not allow us to. I was NOT putting words into your mouth.

I was asking you if God took away our free will after salvation.
I believe we retain our free will.
So if I DO lose my faith, it is MY FAULT and not God's.


YOU, OTOH, apparently believe it is God's fault because He would be untrustworthy and letting us down.

You should make an effort not to accuse me of things I do not do. Thanks.

End of story...

Ok Fran,

I will ask forgiveness, and say it seems you misunderstood me, So although you did do what I said, it was out of ignorance, not out of anything else

I say this, because what you just described here is not even close to what I believe, or what I was even trying to say, It is the wrong context completely.

so here I will try to use an example, Remembering that faith means you have assurance that the one you are trusting can do what you are asking him or her to do.

Did you have faith in your father when you grew up? I did, I did for years, Then my father starting letting me down, I would trust him in an area and he would fail me, Eventually after so much of this, I lost faith in my father

My father did not take my faith away from me, He did not force me to keep having faith in him, he did not force me to lose faith in him, He just stopped being faithful.

That is the way we humans do things (maybe you do not? I do not know, you would be the first I ever met if you do not) We trust some one as long as they are trustworthy, As soon as they stop doing things which help us have faith in them, as soon as they stop being faithful to us, We lose faith in them, If they get to the the point they lose all trustworthiness, We lose all faith in them. (which in the case of salvation, I gather you and a few like you say this is how salvation can be lost)

Also.

Some people are trustworthy is some areas, yet are not very trustworthy in others. I may ask them to help in one area, because I know I can trust them, but other areas, I would not ask, because I do not trust them to get that job done.

Now. to God.

Is God trustworthy? Will he ever let us down? Is there any area he is not trustworthy in?

I can not think of any are where God can not do somethign that needs to be done, and he would do it right.

So why would I ever lose faith in God? Again, He is not human, he will not stop being a trustworthy God.

The only reason I can think of losing faith in God in this area, is if I become legalistic in my walk, And I look at myself, and I see I am not doing well. or I am in trouble, because I fail to live up. or I struggle with a certain sin and can not seem to break it, Or I have religious people attacking me, I have satan attacking me, so I may lose faith at this time and walk away, Not because I lost faith in God, but faith in myself.

Now. I first get saved, because I trust him to save me, from that point, I have to grow, while growing I have to learn to trust God in scary areas of my life, where I have yet to trust him in,, And when I do, Does he ever let me down? No.. SO I may never gain faith in a particular area of my life and continue to struggle in that area, but once i have it, What reason would I have to lose faith in that area?

Again, God does not let me down?

Again, Maybe you misunderstood me, I will give you that benefit. But God does not force people to stay in faith, He does not have to, He never gives anyone a reason to stop having faith in him

I hope you now understand where I was coming from.


God still promises to save me, It is not he that failed, it was me.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Abraham did the deeds of faith (by his own merit) which proved his worthiness....let your works prove your faith, bring forth meat/works worthy of repentance....

God does not need proof. God can see right through a person with dead faith

He does not tell the world a man is saved, and considered righteous, Unless he knows for a fact that mans faiht is real.

Abraham proved God was right in declaring him righteous by his works, thats about it. He did not save himself by those works.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

it seems that the contentious holiness protesters perceive that obeying God from heart purity is somehow earning ones salvation....not knowing that its our contribution to the fellowship with God....as the apostle Paul said on 3 occasions, its man working together with God. synergy..only by this dynamic can man enter into a relationship of love with God, (its called covenant); for the relationship of mutual love cannot be obtain by any other means...They despise the fact that the new covenant is conditional, so they parrot the Penal Substitution fable and the not of works straw-man theology, foolishly not knowing that Paul was speaking of religious works that are of none effect, not the works of obedience.

Um, The old covenant was conditional. Thats why no one could be made righteous by it, We all sinned, and failed to live up to that standard.

The New covenant is not conditional. If it is, we will fail just as miserably as we did the old (not to mention the old still condemns us) and we would be twice condemned.

if your going to judge people. at least try to learn something about biblical truth.

Until then, Please stop excusing your sin. I know you love your sin, No matter how petty you think it might be, But God hates it and said he can have no fellowship with people who commit those sins, Unless they are redeemed by his son.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Please prove this with Scripture!

It is their strawman,

A work is a work is a work, It is what I do to earn a wage, earn a salary, earn a living, Earn a reward.

They reject grace and mercy, because they THINK they have made it on their own merit.

 

[Stephen63]

I will ignore the every book in Bible statement since that is just out there....no basis in fact.

But if we can explain clearly to you what salvation is (being born again a singular event) and why it cannot be lost according to scripture why is is you cannot explain how it is not gained?

How perfect do I have to be?
How much faith do I have to have?
How much belief will save me?

You keep pointing out the sinner (whatever that means ) and the person who leaves the faith.

I want to know on the positive side how much one has to do to be saved?

If there is no set number then our salvation is eternal and not based on human merit. You see?

If there is a set number then tell us exactly what it is?

Your position of conditional salvation requires an answer for it to be true?

How can God leave us so unsure of where the bough breaks. Remember Jesus has died for all sins past, present and future so tell me the number please?

I have put you on ignore, because you're the one that makes statements without fact, & many times they're just lines of nothing to confuse others.

You didn't even post to me, & I got tired of looking at it.

 

[FranC]

Assurance of salvation

Fran, I considered several ways to explaining assurance of salvation. I was going to take the explanation through the whole spiritual apparatus of salvation and justification by faith to assurance. However, I looked at the multitude of posts by yourself in this thread and others and I decided that you knew and understood all the concepts as far as mental assent goes.
I am convinced that you are an alert and intelligent individual with a good command of the English language, and dare I say it, a gift for the gab. I believe you when you say that you have debated this issue several times (not only on this forum). Perhaps you are a bit like those annoying, but nonetheless attractive girls and young women I knew at school, who could always win an argument. Being right or wrong was never the issue – winning the debate was!

I sure hope I speak English well. I'm a New Yorker but Mr. Dcon made a statement that I'm not well-versed in English. Maybe because I live in Italy he thought I grew up here. Whateva...

THIS IS one argument I persue. Not because I believe I'll convince YOU, but I know there are quiet persons reading along and it's for them that I post. Someone else on this thread said that this is to boost my ego. I'm getting strange reactions here, which is why I come and go. I do thank you for your nice words.



So, instead I will start here:

8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[SUP][a][/SUP] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Rom 8:1-2


and end here:

[SUP]38 [/SUP]For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, [SUP]39 [/SUP]nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 8:38-39.

I agree. You'll get only this argument from me:
NOTHING can separate us from God. True. Not even satan. Certainly no man.
I have, however, seen persons walk away from their faith. Some come back, and some don't.
I hear that they were never really saved in the first place.
This is a Calvinist idea and did not exist before Luther and Calvin. (I hate to discuss Augustine. He never seemed quite sure what he believed and was the only one of his generation that believed in ANY type of predestination).

We cannot know if someone is saved or not. If they profess faith, go to a Church, try to llive a Christianly life, it is not UP TO ME to say they are NOT saved. You know what they say: If it walks like a duck...

If you had cut this down a bit, I would have gotten into the idea of why Calvinists are actually MORE INSECURE of their salvation than Arminians. But there's too much here...
In fact the entire chapter is Paul’s magnum opus on the assurance of salvation.
When you read verse 1, given your track record through this thread up to now you will immediately be thinking that there is an escape clause in that verse: “who do not walk according to the flesh“.
Not so.
Verse 9 explains who is who and what is what:

[SUP]9[/SUP] But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Rom 8:9

What is the difference between those who are in the flesh and those in the Spirit?
Simple: “Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.” – not a Christian.
Simple: “But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you“ – a Christian.

My take on your approach is that somehow one can flip-flop from one state to another, from having the Holy Spirit to not having the Holy Spirit!
Is this Biblically tenable?
I would submit not.
Lets go on:

Again, I agree. I flip-flop? How????? I'm not aware of flip-flopping. I've been a Christian for about 40 years.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. [SUP]15 [/SUP]For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” [SUP]16 [/SUP]The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, [SUP]17 [/SUP]and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. Rom 8:14-17

For this passage of Scripture to make any sense whatsoever it is not possible to oscillate between two states, Christian – non-Christian, born again – not born again, adopted son – not adopted.

We still agree. Wow. This is easy. I could have done this Yesterday !!



Lets take this a bit further:

[SUP]13 [/SUP]In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, [SUP]14 [/SUP]who[SUP][b][/SUP] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. Eph 1:13-14

Still good. But I see troube up ahead.
You're going to get into the sealing. Up above it says that when we believed, we were sealed with the Holy Spirit. He is the guarantee of our inheritance, UNTIL THE REDEMPTION of the PURCHASED POSSESSION.

This is also said to be an "earnest".
Ephesians 1:14

Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
KJV


An "earnest" is a DOWN PAYMENT, as we can see from this version:


Ephesians 1:1 4New International Version (NIV)

14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.


Young's Literal Translation uses the word "earnest".

Our sealing is a down payment. It is valid for as LONG AS WE REMAIN IN CHRIST.
Of course, if you believe in OSAS that discussion ends here
If you want to take the ENTIRE bible at it's plain and simple work, then you do have to give some attention to this idea that we have a DOWN PAYMENT FOR A PURCHASE. Like when you buy a house with a deposit and it is NOT YOURS until all payments are made. And when is this? At the end of our lives AT THE REDEMPTION. ù
Ephesiand 1:14
2 Timothy 4:8 and more

"in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing."




The phrase “sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise“ is not incidental. Everyone in those days knew what a seal was. Individuals like kings and rulers had seals. Seals were applied to documents and property. Messing with those seals meant the full wrath of those individuals and their authority of state because one was challenging and usurping their authority. Seals were often placed on goods purchased and then left without guard because the very seal was the guard or the security. No one would steal and goods marked with a seal unless they were willing to die for the privilege. The seals were inviolate.

All true. I would add that many times the King would send out another decree, also sealed, invalidating the first one.
So I wouldn't say that the seal in and of itself is a TRUE guarantee of anything, even back in those days.

Anyway, this seal certainly shows good intention of the part of God. But does it guarantee the faithfulness of the person?
God will not back out of anything he promises, but could we back out? You see THIS is the Whole question here. YOU believe one cannot. I believe one can. If we keep OUR part of the deal, we weill certainly be saved because God is true. Is HE required to be true even if we do not keep OUR part of this deal?

If WE back out, God WILL withdraw His earnest, or down payment, and we will lose our salvation.

There are only 3 verses in the bible that refer to a "guarantee". There are many verses, and the entire New Testament, confirms that salvation can be lost. Many verses that confirm this...

John 15:1-6 IF WE DO NOT ABIDE IN CHRIST, WE WILL BE THROWN AWAY AS A BRANCH AND CAST INTO THE FIRE.
Acts 8:18-23
Romans 6:12-16
1 Timothy 1:18-19
Hebrews 3:6

an many more...



The seal, which is the Holy Spirit is described like this: “who[SUP][b][/SUP] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession.” The Holy Spirit is the guarantee of our inheritance. It is the same Holy Spirit that is our Spirit of adoption.

Furthermore we received this great inheritance, this adoption, by grace.
What does this mean exactly?
It means by grace, and therefore it cannot be of works in any way, shape, or form:

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. [SUP]6 [/SUP]And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace.[SUP][c][/SUP] But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. Rom 11:5-6

I'll go thru quickly.
This is talking about Israel, specifically. God has not rejected Israel. But some of them had become hard-hearted. It refers also to when Jesus explained why He spoke in parables. Having eyes they will not see, having ears, they will not hear. One must make an effort to undrstand God, this will not happen if the heart is hardened.

Romans 11:5-6 is referring to these hard-hearted Jews who walked out and may come back. It IS GOD'S GRACE working in them It is not of their own works. This could be appllied to us also. If we're baptized for the right reason, it is of God's grace, if we think we're doing it to be saved, it becomes a work and nullifies God's grace. If we try to work for our salvation, we will not be saved, by God's grace and our faith, we are saved. Justification. Sanctfication is different and requires our works.


The reference to the remnant and the present time referred to those who were Christians. Paul absolutely emphasises that salvation (the phrase used here is “according to the election of grace”) is by grace, unmerited favour, a gift.
If calling salvation a gift seems like over-egging the goose then look at the terminology Paul uses in Romans chapter 5:

[SUP]15 [/SUP]But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.) Rom 5:15-17

PART ONE