Not By Works
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That's okay, I knew you weren't strait to the gate like you portray.
One more time for the trouble maker.....
Originally Posted by Ariel82
Hmmmm????
Do YOU want to clarify these words?
Originally Posted by Ariel82
Doubt it will help....she thinks folks blame God for their sins...until she years down that strawman...it's doubtful she will hear anything spoken without making hay out of the statements.
Originally Posted by Stephen63
I can't believe you just fixed your mouth to say that.
...........................
One more time for the trouble maker.....
Hmmmm????
Do YOU want to clarify these words?
Doubt it will help....she thinks folks blame God for their sins...until she years down that strawman...it's doubtful she will hear anything spoken without making hay out of the statements.
I can't believe you just fixed your mouth to say that.
...........................
A
I think you are making assumption about what I believe about the law based on others beliefs...that happens when folks group each other into an "us" versus "them" mentality.
.the "us" doesn't agree on everything anymore than the "rhem"
For example, Willybob doesn't believe in imputed righteousness but that doesn't mean I assume you don't.
I believe God have the law to keep the world from becoming more evil than it already is. He gave His angels power to enforce His laws, kind of like spiritual police.
Satan job was to be the accuser or prosecutor. However, he rebelled against God and also wanted to be the judge. He and other angels go beyond what God created them to do.
That is why when we sin, we feel condemned.
There is a difference between conviction which is from God and condemnation.
For example:
Condemnation says you are a failure and will never change.
Conviction says you are a sinner, but God can cleanse you and show you a better way.
One causes despair.the other gives hope and strength to overcome....both uses the Law to help us discern right and wrong.
The Law when used rightly is good. However even Satan tried to tempt Jesus by twisting scriptures. So we have to be ready and prayerful and careful with our words, because if Satan can twist God's own words and deceive folks.., what do you think he does with ours?
You stress relationship with God and I believe that is awesome and true. I believe that is learning self control into godliness and takes perseverance, virtue and faith.
I would stress relationships with our brethren (brotherly kindness) and those who view us as enemies (agape love) as the next steps towards our spirtual journey towards maturity in Christ.
Why do people think it is a bad thing to be called immature?
At first I wanted to be offended, but God says why be offended by the truth? Are we as "perfect" and "mature" as Jesus is? Are we 100% at one with God and His will always? Can't we all still learn from God and one another?
How do we define spiritual maturity?
I say it when we know our place in the Body of Christ (using our spiritual gifts to do good works) and show the fruit of walking with the Holy spirit, rooted in Christ and able to discern good from evil.
.the "us" doesn't agree on everything anymore than the "rhem"
For example, Willybob doesn't believe in imputed righteousness but that doesn't mean I assume you don't.
I believe God have the law to keep the world from becoming more evil than it already is. He gave His angels power to enforce His laws, kind of like spiritual police.
Satan job was to be the accuser or prosecutor. However, he rebelled against God and also wanted to be the judge. He and other angels go beyond what God created them to do.
That is why when we sin, we feel condemned.
There is a difference between conviction which is from God and condemnation.
For example:
Condemnation says you are a failure and will never change.
Conviction says you are a sinner, but God can cleanse you and show you a better way.
One causes despair.the other gives hope and strength to overcome....both uses the Law to help us discern right and wrong.
The Law when used rightly is good. However even Satan tried to tempt Jesus by twisting scriptures. So we have to be ready and prayerful and careful with our words, because if Satan can twist God's own words and deceive folks.., what do you think he does with ours?
You stress relationship with God and I believe that is awesome and true. I believe that is learning self control into godliness and takes perseverance, virtue and faith.
I would stress relationships with our brethren (brotherly kindness) and those who view us as enemies (agape love) as the next steps towards our spirtual journey towards maturity in Christ.
Why do people think it is a bad thing to be called immature?
At first I wanted to be offended, but God says why be offended by the truth? Are we as "perfect" and "mature" as Jesus is? Are we 100% at one with God and His will always? Can't we all still learn from God and one another?
How do we define spiritual maturity?
I say it when we know our place in the Body of Christ (using our spiritual gifts to do good works) and show the fruit of walking with the Holy spirit, rooted in Christ and able to discern good from evil.
-
Originally Posted by Meggido
The Fear of the Lord is not leading us to Christ, The Fear of the Lord is not leading us to Christ, it is about how to have relationship with him....
....
It would seem you have that understanding upside down ?
It is about how to have relationship with him....as he leads us by His fear.
No leading no relationship
It’s all about the perfect law of God (no theories of men) that leads us to Christ
The law of God is perfect (Psalm 19) that does quicken our souls…giving us simply ones His understanding (not seen),the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.(the faith law.)
We fear him as a new creation because with him there is forgiveness by His mercy with him there is plenty of Grace to pay the wage of our sin (not a down payment but in full)
For who could stand before God if he would even take the least of our sin into account seeing to violate one we will be found guilty of the whole law
It is that kind of fear that does lead us.
As another poster wrote…If people study the OT, they would see God was full of all kinds of grace.
Study to show yourself aproved unto God .Why look to the Jewish fathers as if we did need men to teach us?
A
Ooooooo, looks like the green-eyed monster has reared its ugly head,
Pssssst, meow, catfight!
Pssssst, meow, catfight!
It's been hours ago...so if you want to find someone stirring up trouble...just look in the mirror.
What reason would i have to be jealous?
Ooooooo, looks like the green-eyed monster has reared its ugly head,
Pssssst, meow, catfight!
Pssssst, meow, catfight!
No cat fight.
I already answered the post in question.
Not even sure if Ariel replied.
This thread moves too fast for me...
The problem is in understanding conditional words like... IF
Seems this same problem applies to biblical doctrine. Some persons don't unerstand the word IF
and what it implies...
It makes all the difference in the world, because what is said previously is conditional on what is said after the word IF.
A
Exactly.
I have found that we shouldn't assume everyone sees certain verses as we do.
Most people will agree with scriptures because the Holy spirit is showing them. Our words just serve as a reminder.
I don't believe we can really "teach" anyone anything not already told to them by God.
However we can bring to their remembrance God's truth and try and develop a deeper understanding of scripture.
At least that is what I hope that fellowship with one another will accomplish.
I am not really into bullying or being narcistic...but you can't help what others think, you just pray and keep doing what God asks of you.
Isnt that what it means when you say we should have a relationship with God?
To follow God even if the whole world is against Him?
I have found that we shouldn't assume everyone sees certain verses as we do.
Most people will agree with scriptures because the Holy spirit is showing them. Our words just serve as a reminder.
I don't believe we can really "teach" anyone anything not already told to them by God.
However we can bring to their remembrance God's truth and try and develop a deeper understanding of scripture.
At least that is what I hope that fellowship with one another will accomplish.
I am not really into bullying or being narcistic...but you can't help what others think, you just pray and keep doing what God asks of you.
Isnt that what it means when you say we should have a relationship with God?
To follow God even if the whole world is against Him?
A
I did reply Fran, but yeah the thread moves fast so I don't get offended when the conversation gets lost.
.some people say it the forum but I see it happen in real life to during Bible studies.
You just don't have enough time in the day to truly discuss everything as a group.
If you really want to know what others believe, it takes years and some in depth one on one conversations.
Online...I recommend private messaging for those truly interested in private conversation. Mainly because threads wander alot.
.some people say it the forum but I see it happen in real life to during Bible studies.
You just don't have enough time in the day to truly discuss everything as a group.
If you really want to know what others believe, it takes years and some in depth one on one conversations.
Online...I recommend private messaging for those truly interested in private conversation. Mainly because threads wander alot.
I was trying to think and feel my way through the post above.
It is like a boxer trading blows. It is language I try not to use because it is a style
that seems so confrontational and communicates aggression and rejection without
resolution or peace. So I was thinking of counting the blows, 17.
Now this approach is fine, because it is the MO. But with all MO's once you know
their technique it looses its power, because it is all front with nothing behind it, lol
It is like a boxer trading blows. It is language I try not to use because it is a style
that seems so confrontational and communicates aggression and rejection without
resolution or peace. So I was thinking of counting the blows, 17.
Now this approach is fine, because it is the MO. But with all MO's once you know
their technique it looses its power, because it is all front with nothing behind it, lol
Christ did not come to bring peace but division . Some think by offering wonderful dead works by a dead faith(no faith) thinking it is the kind of thing (dead works)that cccomapnaies salavation only crucifying the lord of Glory over and over holding him to public shame as if the one demonstation was not enough.
Is there any thing better than the reedemtion of our soul? What can you add to it?
Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
A
The miscommunication seems to stem from the concept of "losing Faith" or "falling away"
What does that really mean and do we share a common definition?
I am not being condescending as some have accused me, I am just speaking basic because that is how I think.
We have to determine what we agree upon to be able to clarify what we don't agree about.
I believe we both agree that a saving faith is needed for salvation, right?
What does that really mean and do we share a common definition?
I am not being condescending as some have accused me, I am just speaking basic because that is how I think.
We have to determine what we agree upon to be able to clarify what we don't agree about.
I believe we both agree that a saving faith is needed for salvation, right?
Before I go - I will post this about grace - it is for all of us throughout all of our lives - from being babes in the Lord to being fully matured sons/daughters of our loving Father and be are one with our Lord Jesus Christ forever joined as one spirit with Him.
I wonder if this "Christian" thing has anything to do with "grace" that is in Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior?
It looks like we have received - grace upon grace through the Lord Jesus Christ
John 1:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.
It looks like we "believe through grace".. ( I'm sure they really meant that we are saved because of the good works we do...)
Acts 18:27 (KJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
Paul said that it was the grace of God that would give the believers their inheritance and it was able to build them up. ( Maybe that's not really important...)
Acts 20:32 (KJV)
[SUP]32 [/SUP] And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
Paul said for Timothy to be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. ( He probably didn't really mean it.... )
2 Timothy 2:1 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
The apostles said that we are saved by the grace of God ( They probably really meant to say - you are saved by works.)..
Acts 15:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."
Paul says that we are justified "freely" by grace....( He really meant to say - we are justified and continue to be saved by all the good works we do... )
Romans 3:24 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Paul says that when we receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness - we reign in life through Christ alone. ( He really meant to say that - those who do good works all the days of their life will receive grace and the gift of righteousness )
Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Then Paul was really messed up when he told the Ephesians this scripture below- ( He really meant to say - you must do good works in order to create and maintain salvation - Paul was just having an "off" day when he wrote Ephesians )
( And God has even prepared the good works for us to walk in as a result of having His grace that saves us and not by any works - we get to participate in the family business of telling people of the love and grace our loving Father and Lord have for them )
Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Here Paul told Timothy that God saved us according to His own purpose and grace - not according to our works...( He really meant to say - He will save us if we do enough good works...again Paul was having an "off" day )
2 Timothy 1:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
Peter says to fix our hope "completely" on the grace that comes with the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ. ( It's most likely a mis-print in all 5,000 manuscripts - he really meant to tell us to fix our hope on our good works because you could end up in hell if you don't do enough of them..)
1 Peter 1:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace being brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Conclusion - this "grace stuff" is really not important at all. We can "do our own works" - and God will be happy with us...
I wonder if this "Christian" thing has anything to do with "grace" that is in Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior?
It looks like we have received - grace upon grace through the Lord Jesus Christ
John 1:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] For of His fullness we have all received, and grace upon grace.
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.
It looks like we "believe through grace".. ( I'm sure they really meant that we are saved because of the good works we do...)
Acts 18:27 (KJV)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
Paul said that it was the grace of God that would give the believers their inheritance and it was able to build them up. ( Maybe that's not really important...)
Acts 20:32 (KJV)
[SUP]32 [/SUP] And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.
Paul said for Timothy to be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. ( He probably didn't really mean it.... )
2 Timothy 2:1 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
The apostles said that we are saved by the grace of God ( They probably really meant to say - you are saved by works.)..
Acts 15:11 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."
Paul says that we are justified "freely" by grace....( He really meant to say - we are justified and continue to be saved by all the good works we do... )
Romans 3:24 (KJV)
[SUP]24 [/SUP] Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Paul says that when we receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness - we reign in life through Christ alone. ( He really meant to say that - those who do good works all the days of their life will receive grace and the gift of righteousness )
Romans 5:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Then Paul was really messed up when he told the Ephesians this scripture below- ( He really meant to say - you must do good works in order to create and maintain salvation - Paul was just having an "off" day when he wrote Ephesians )
( And God has even prepared the good works for us to walk in as a result of having His grace that saves us and not by any works - we get to participate in the family business of telling people of the love and grace our loving Father and Lord have for them )
Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
[SUP]10 [/SUP] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Here Paul told Timothy that God saved us according to His own purpose and grace - not according to our works...( He really meant to say - He will save us if we do enough good works...again Paul was having an "off" day )
2 Timothy 1:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
Peter says to fix our hope "completely" on the grace that comes with the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ. ( It's most likely a mis-print in all 5,000 manuscripts - he really meant to tell us to fix our hope on our good works because you could end up in hell if you don't do enough of them..)
1 Peter 1:13
[SUP]13 [/SUP] Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace being brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Conclusion - this "grace stuff" is really not important at all. We can "do our own works" - and God will be happy with us...