Not By Works
- Thread starter dcontroversal
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Ariel - Now this is an answer. A sinful lifestyle needs to be resolved and dealt with.
Now practically, most people when they come to faith, know the sin and evil prostitution
entails and are very broken people who need shelter and safety.
And I do not judge people, but I do quote what scripture says about those who continue
in a sinful lifestyle. Only death will come and judgement.
I noticed you are actually sidestepping the issue I am highlighting. A righteous walk needs to
flow from faith, or the faith is meaningless. It is not unusual for people to live immoral lives,
with many boy friends/girl friends as if a physical relationship is not significant.
Ariel you do sit half way between the schools of thought, because you do believe in future
sin forgiven and security so a half way to the theology of g7 and his world.
So we know were we are, which is progress. I hope dc might refrain from his disingenuous
statements a little less often, but maybe as with all sin, it has enslaved him.
My son when he was 5 knew some addictions in his behaviour were too hard, so he accepted
it was a work in progress. What some might think is a spiritual issue may just be a personality
trait.
Now practically, most people when they come to faith, know the sin and evil prostitution
entails and are very broken people who need shelter and safety.
And I do not judge people, but I do quote what scripture says about those who continue
in a sinful lifestyle. Only death will come and judgement.
I noticed you are actually sidestepping the issue I am highlighting. A righteous walk needs to
flow from faith, or the faith is meaningless. It is not unusual for people to live immoral lives,
with many boy friends/girl friends as if a physical relationship is not significant.
Ariel you do sit half way between the schools of thought, because you do believe in future
sin forgiven and security so a half way to the theology of g7 and his world.
So we know were we are, which is progress. I hope dc might refrain from his disingenuous
statements a little less often, but maybe as with all sin, it has enslaved him.
My son when he was 5 knew some addictions in his behaviour were too hard, so he accepted
it was a work in progress. What some might think is a spiritual issue may just be a personality
trait.
In our church we have had at least three young women who have had boy friends
and then got pregnant. As a community we have been supportive and helped, some
who later got married, some who split up and brought up there child within the church.
So personally I have not known this judgmentalism being spoken of here, but rather the
opposite. It is always more difficult to be dealing with longer term emotional issues that
lead to these difficulties than standing at a distance and tutting.
Many years ago I knew a girl, impressionable, within the church who was being groomed
by some 25yr olds. All the warnings went unheeded and 6 months later, pregnant.
In the uk the strange thing is with the internet and more options for young people the
pregnancy rate among teenagers has halved, but no one knows why. It might just be
young people are now more aware of the world they are growing up in, or at least the
girls know what unreliable things guys normally are.
and then got pregnant. As a community we have been supportive and helped, some
who later got married, some who split up and brought up there child within the church.
So personally I have not known this judgmentalism being spoken of here, but rather the
opposite. It is always more difficult to be dealing with longer term emotional issues that
lead to these difficulties than standing at a distance and tutting.
Many years ago I knew a girl, impressionable, within the church who was being groomed
by some 25yr olds. All the warnings went unheeded and 6 months later, pregnant.
In the uk the strange thing is with the internet and more options for young people the
pregnancy rate among teenagers has halved, but no one knows why. It might just be
young people are now more aware of the world they are growing up in, or at least the
girls know what unreliable things guys normally are.
A
One of the reason I don't bother speaking to him Gb9 no honest dialogue can take place when you have to constantly correct what you are actually saying aagainst the parade of strawmen.
I am not "half way" between anyone. If he actually understood where I stand, perhaps he would not accuse me of sidesteppng his question and see the point I was addressing.
Which is HE IS ASKING THE WRONG QUESTIONS!
He shouldn't be asking if she is saved or not (telling people to judge her).
He should be asking "how can we help her walk more fully as a child of God?" (discipleship and walking along side our siblings)
Why tempt people to judge others salvation and then claim to be holy?
But I doubt it will be heard,
I am not "half way" between anyone. If he actually understood where I stand, perhaps he would not accuse me of sidesteppng his question and see the point I was addressing.
Which is HE IS ASKING THE WRONG QUESTIONS!
He shouldn't be asking if she is saved or not (telling people to judge her).
He should be asking "how can we help her walk more fully as a child of God?" (discipleship and walking along side our siblings)
Why tempt people to judge others salvation and then claim to be holy?
But I doubt it will be heard,
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gb9 - lol. I am not judging people but commenting on where they are.
Maybe for you to describe a situation is being judgemental, but for most this is just
being real.
Is it judgemental for Jesus to call us sinners?
Is it judgemental to call people to repent of the sins they know about?
If you see a theft or a murder, is it judgemental to describe it?
I remember a work collegue claiming that looking lustfully at women was ok
and I should not be judgemental towards his behaviour. But it was wrong
selfish and evil.
But maybe I am getting the sense of where you are coming from. Calling sin
sin is wrong in your eyes?
Maybe for you to describe a situation is being judgemental, but for most this is just
being real.
Is it judgemental for Jesus to call us sinners?
Is it judgemental to call people to repent of the sins they know about?
If you see a theft or a murder, is it judgemental to describe it?
I remember a work collegue claiming that looking lustfully at women was ok
and I should not be judgemental towards his behaviour. But it was wrong
selfish and evil.
But maybe I am getting the sense of where you are coming from. Calling sin
sin is wrong in your eyes?
A
Other churches are too busy to actually disciple their members to discern gods from evil.
They think acceptance is enough and don't actually talk about the hard truths of how evil the world can be...
I try and warn my kids that they are currently sheltered and in the loving arms of their family and the church,but the world will want to destroy them and all that is good within them.
.they must be watchful and prayful because God will protect them.
Often kids search for love in all the wrong places instead of the loving arms of our Heavenly Father.
Most young people need to learn why marriage is sacred and what it's suppose to look like according to the Bible, because they don't have their parents marriage to show them.
They think acceptance is enough and don't actually talk about the hard truths of how evil the world can be...
I try and warn my kids that they are currently sheltered and in the loving arms of their family and the church,but the world will want to destroy them and all that is good within them.
.they must be watchful and prayful because God will protect them.
Often kids search for love in all the wrong places instead of the loving arms of our Heavenly Father.
Most young people need to learn why marriage is sacred and what it's suppose to look like according to the Bible, because they don't have their parents marriage to show them.
Ariel. I am sorry. You are taking a simple analogy and then putting it into a real church situation.
The reason for the analogy was to highlight the compromise with sin.
And I chose an example where clear rebellion is present, with no intention of changing behaviour.
For you this person is saved. For me they are still on a journey to find Christ, and have the
beginnings of understanding who He is, but not the cost it will be in their lives.
And you have made a mistake, a serious mistake.
If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Matt 18:15-17
Now unbelievers coming to church have no obligation to sort their lives out.
Believers are different.
It is quite a simple divide.
Now judgementalism is usually used when people are judged not for the sin
they are commiting but because of cultural differences, or language.
There is a funny video about this with two black guys complaining they are
sterotyped as criminals going into an area to steal and mug people, when that
is why they are going into the area to do exactly that.
So defending sinful behaviour in believers is simply wrong.
I hope you see why, and it has nothing to do with judging people, it is all about
what is good and evil behaviour and its consequences. There is no compromise
in the Kingdom.
The reason for the analogy was to highlight the compromise with sin.
And I chose an example where clear rebellion is present, with no intention of changing behaviour.
For you this person is saved. For me they are still on a journey to find Christ, and have the
beginnings of understanding who He is, but not the cost it will be in their lives.
And you have made a mistake, a serious mistake.
If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Matt 18:15-17
Now unbelievers coming to church have no obligation to sort their lives out.
Believers are different.
It is quite a simple divide.
Now judgementalism is usually used when people are judged not for the sin
they are commiting but because of cultural differences, or language.
There is a funny video about this with two black guys complaining they are
sterotyped as criminals going into an area to steal and mug people, when that
is why they are going into the area to do exactly that.
So defending sinful behaviour in believers is simply wrong.
I hope you see why, and it has nothing to do with judging people, it is all about
what is good and evil behaviour and its consequences. There is no compromise
in the Kingdom.
gb9 - You are so cagey. Do you read what I write or listen to my intention, or know
of the truth in Christ which I share. I only care about actual sin, and how we express
love.
You love defining sin as if everyone fails so it just shows we all fail, rather than sin
being something we should fight hard to avoid at all costs.
Paul talks at length about eating the wrong foods because a weak brother gets upset,
you should not do it, and if you do, you are commiting sin because you are causing them
to get upset and feel condemned. It sounds like some were vegetarians.
He goes on to say, if in faith you think something is wrong and still do it, it is then sin.
Now Paul is saying sin is banned activity or approaches. It is the assumption he is speaking
with, it leads to death not life.
I realise much of scripture you do not accept this assumption, so it does not make sense to
you.
of the truth in Christ which I share. I only care about actual sin, and how we express
love.
You love defining sin as if everyone fails so it just shows we all fail, rather than sin
being something we should fight hard to avoid at all costs.
Paul talks at length about eating the wrong foods because a weak brother gets upset,
you should not do it, and if you do, you are commiting sin because you are causing them
to get upset and feel condemned. It sounds like some were vegetarians.
He goes on to say, if in faith you think something is wrong and still do it, it is then sin.
Now Paul is saying sin is banned activity or approaches. It is the assumption he is speaking
with, it leads to death not life.
I realise much of scripture you do not accept this assumption, so it does not make sense to
you.
A
No that isn't what I teach my kids. We don't focus on sin and the law or the breaking of it.
We do as you suggest..give them something that can overcome their sin...grace and forgiveness even when they don't deserve it.
.I teach them to love even the bullies and trouble markets and see how blessed they are because they don't have to worry about being beaten, aren't tossed back and forth like a bone from one parent to another, have enough food to eat.
.I tell them about my childhood, how we came here with one bowl and the clothes on our back.
How the church have us clothes and taught my parents English.
How my mom has bullet wounds and a piece missing from her skull because someone hit her with a hachet.
No I tell me kids to look beyond what the world sees and pray and ask God what He sees.
Look past the kid giving the teacher a hard time to the crying child seeking love and attention in all the wrong ways.
.I encourage them to show God's love just as we have shown our love to them.
.to give grace and mercy even if the other person never says sorry.
We do as you suggest..give them something that can overcome their sin...grace and forgiveness even when they don't deserve it.
.I teach them to love even the bullies and trouble markets and see how blessed they are because they don't have to worry about being beaten, aren't tossed back and forth like a bone from one parent to another, have enough food to eat.
.I tell them about my childhood, how we came here with one bowl and the clothes on our back.
How the church have us clothes and taught my parents English.
How my mom has bullet wounds and a piece missing from her skull because someone hit her with a hachet.
No I tell me kids to look beyond what the world sees and pray and ask God what He sees.
Look past the kid giving the teacher a hard time to the crying child seeking love and attention in all the wrong ways.
.I encourage them to show God's love just as we have shown our love to them.
.to give grace and mercy even if the other person never says sorry.
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I do not make up my own definition of sin, then use it so I always come out innocent of any wrong doing. you do just that.
I use the Biblical definition of sin- missing the mark, falling short of a standard, knowing to do good and not doing so. you only partially use it.
I look at things thru facts. you seem to let your feelings and emotions determine facts, instead of hard evidence.
one of us is realistic. one of us is self deceived. one of us values truth. one of us values feelings.
one admits he is not perfect and sinless. one of us kinda sorta says that, then goes into " free from sin " spin.
one of trusts God. one of us trusts self.
I use the Biblical definition of sin- missing the mark, falling short of a standard, knowing to do good and not doing so. you only partially use it.
I look at things thru facts. you seem to let your feelings and emotions determine facts, instead of hard evidence.
one of us is realistic. one of us is self deceived. one of us values truth. one of us values feelings.
one admits he is not perfect and sinless. one of us kinda sorta says that, then goes into " free from sin " spin.
one of trusts God. one of us trusts self.
lol. The biggest lies are the ones in plain sight.
You created a straw man, I am not being honest, and you have to correct my strawmen.
The whole point about a straw man is it is abstract, and is constructed to make a point.
It simplifies arguments to highlight something.
Now obviously if you dislike the point being made and understand the straw man illustrates
it, but other features are important, you do not try to correct the straw man, you show its
failure or problems.
What you are actually complaining about is your lack of intellectual agility.
And you are in between Wesleyan theology and calvanist theology, with a bit of hyper grace,
OSAS thrown in. g7 is totally HG, EG somewhere between traditional and HG, and I am
charismatic baptist. After some reading I am probably more Wesleyan than baptist.
Now obviously for some the practical implications of their positions are fairly brutal.
My position is the enemy and lost, while a worldly believer living a sinful lifestyle is
destined for heaven.
The problem is this is the most corrosive view of holiness and purity there can be,
and it will not last, but bring lasting damage to the gospel of grace in our culture.
It denies so much of scripture and the teaching of Christ and the apostles, but this
has less significance.
Our culture is now so embedded in sexual immorality, the reality tv shows are now
sexual relationships in real time. At this rate orgies and the total breakdown of
family units is likely to follow.
You created a straw man, I am not being honest, and you have to correct my strawmen.
The whole point about a straw man is it is abstract, and is constructed to make a point.
It simplifies arguments to highlight something.
Now obviously if you dislike the point being made and understand the straw man illustrates
it, but other features are important, you do not try to correct the straw man, you show its
failure or problems.
What you are actually complaining about is your lack of intellectual agility.
And you are in between Wesleyan theology and calvanist theology, with a bit of hyper grace,
OSAS thrown in. g7 is totally HG, EG somewhere between traditional and HG, and I am
charismatic baptist. After some reading I am probably more Wesleyan than baptist.
Now obviously for some the practical implications of their positions are fairly brutal.
My position is the enemy and lost, while a worldly believer living a sinful lifestyle is
destined for heaven.
The problem is this is the most corrosive view of holiness and purity there can be,
and it will not last, but bring lasting damage to the gospel of grace in our culture.
It denies so much of scripture and the teaching of Christ and the apostles, but this
has less significance.
Our culture is now so embedded in sexual immorality, the reality tv shows are now
sexual relationships in real time. At this rate orgies and the total breakdown of
family units is likely to follow.