The truth behind the Law

[Grace777x70]

How did those in the Old Testament know Jesus? In what form did they know Him?

This verse seems to indicate that most people did not really know Him as we know the Lord Jesus Christ.

John 1:10-11 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.


[SUP]11 [/SUP] He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

It seems to be people in the Old Testament were saved because they believed God - whatever He said to them at the time.

Jesus said that no one knows the Father and He had come to reveal them to His children. Luke 10:22

The writer of Hebrews says that "In times past God spoke through the law and the prophets" but in these last days has spoke to us through the Son.

Hebrews 1:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,

[SUP]2 [/SUP] in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,


The scriptures are obviously progressive revelation of the Lord and of the true nature of our Father. Jesus Himself is the exact representation of the true nature of our Father.

 

[miknik5]

I am sorry
I realize that I will never be able to discuss the law (just as I can't discuss works) with anyone

To me, it causes confusion to those who have not first entered into the restored relationship which is through fellowship with HIS SON through faith in HIM who teaches and leads us by HIS SPIRIT

I see that those who do not believe will be misled in thinking that by doing good works, or following the outward checklist of the law, that they will be justified in the sight of GOD


But if they are not washed and covered and marked by faith in HIS blood which washes and covers and marks us as belonging to GOD, it will be a futile attempt at trying to earn salvation apart from THE ONE through whom
qe have access to THE FATHER

It's because of HIM that we have access to THE FATHER and apart from
HIM, and without HIS COVERING we can not approach the throne of GRACE uncovered

 

[miknik5]

By the way, that also is a major part of OT laws

no one could just come up into the presence of GOD unless they were called and washed/purified/consecrated/sanctified to do so

the garments of a high priest with incense in the Breast pocket as a pleasing aroma before GOD

Do not approach the altar in "steps"

(what is required to make steps but manmade toil)

lest you be found unxovered

(that's your flesh...you...what you can do and what you have done)

in Haggai 1, Ezra 3 and Zechariah 4 GOD reminds us to pay careful attention to THE FOUNDATION

It is sufficient to LISTEN TO HIM who is both the FOUNDATUON and HEAD of our faith provided we REMAIN in HIM
and do not "go out" from HIM

 

[miknik5]

The truth behind THE LAW was to lead us to CHRIST

If anyone denies this, please feel free to explain

nor that I will agree but feel free to explain it

by our words we will be justified

 

[Zen]

by our words we will be justified

Matthew 12:37
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Titus 3:7
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Acts 13:39
And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

Romans 2:13
For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Romans 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Romans 3:28
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:2
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1 Corinthians 4:4
For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:11
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Galatians 3:24
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Titus 3:7
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

How did those in the Old Testament know Jesus? In what form did they know Him?

This verse seems to indicate that most people did not really know Him as we know the Lord Jesus Christ.

John 1:10-11 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.


[SUP]11 [/SUP] He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

It seems to be people in the Old Testament were saved because they believed God - whatever He said to them at the time.

Jesus said that no one knows the Father and He had come to reveal them to His children. Luke 10:22

The writer of Hebrews says that "In times past God spoke through the law and the prophets" but in these last days has spoke to us through the Son.

Hebrews 1:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,

[SUP]2 [/SUP] in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,


The scriptures are obviously progressive revelation of the Lord and of the true nature of our Father. Jesus Himself is the exact representation of the true nature of our Father.

Good to hear from you Grace . I can understand your reasoning but when reading the Psalms and many other scriptures in the OT it becomes clear that Jesus was revealed to some... however far and inbetween it might seem. But then even today after Christ was revealed we still have many people "not seeing" Him.

 

[Rainrider]

Can i ask how you can say the above has nothing to do with the law?
it had to do with the truth of the messiah whom those who had GOD's WORD and we're under the LAW should have understood by all the goings on that GOD's WORD and PROMISE had come

But instead of believing, they disbelieved and even challenged THE WORD

Nor only that, two of these above passages speak about John's message.
The "brood of vipers" came out to hear john, that's for sure...but they didn't want to do what John told the crowds to do

if they did, it would be a witness against them before all the common folks that they too were unclean and in need of this baptism

So they didn't do it
and John called them out on it

They were being called out for their teaching of mans laws, over Biblical Law.

 

[Rainrider]

Matthew 12 and 23 had to do with the TRUTH that the Pharisees did not believe HIM and so they tried to trap HIM through the requirements of THE LAW

that is why Jesus called them a brood of vipers because here they are claiming to follow the law but they can't even make a right judgement not only about what is good and right to do but concerning CHRIST to be THE MESSIAH

Once more, they used Rabbinic Law. Though their is not much difference in the 2, Rabbinic Law was so full of things that were never intended, in Biblical Law.
Rabbinic Law didn't allow, Healing on Sabbath, picking up a stick, dragging a stick, putting out or lighting a lamp, bringing an animal for sacrifice, or taking more than the alotted number of steeps.

Biblical Law did not say a word about any of this. In fact by Biblical Law, if a stick was in the path, it was right to move it by what ever means you could, helping the sick, if need one had the right to light or put out a lamp. If one reads the answers given by Yeshua, He was always telling them the true meaning of the Law, and never did He in any way vindicate Rabbinic law.

 

[Rainrider]

If someone follows the law perfectly but does not believe in Jesus Christ and hasn't been baptized (by GOD) through faith in HIM are they justified in the sight of GOD

And I repeat, Salvation comes by faith. If you can't show faith with out being obedient to His Word, to try would only show you don't know Him at all.

 

[Rainrider]

This is an impossible question to answer because nobody has done this and will ever be able to do this..... except for Jesus Christ our Saviour. He kept the Torah to the last letter.

God was and is always looking for relationship with us, if we are in a relationship with Him the law will take care of itself because man made doctrines will not have a hold on us . God's law is His law and as He is a non-changing god we can with certainty say that our problem with the law is with our interpretation and not with God's law.

What about Enoch, and Elijah? Both were taken and never tasted death. Can it be that they both walked a life with out sin? The wages of sin is death, so to be taken and never taste death, shows us something about their lives.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

How did those in the Old Testament know Jesus? In what form did they know Him?

This verse seems to indicate that most people did not really know Him as we know the Lord Jesus Christ.

Grace, remember the two men walking to Emmaus? They were discussing Jesus and He appeared to them and taught them out of the word (what word because the NT was not written as yet?) about Himself. If we look for Jesus in the OT he there like we know him know, The Son of God. It is easier for us after the fact but the men in OT had the revelation about Him.

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
Luk 24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Everything in the Bible is about Jesus. It is difficult for us to comprehend because we are reading the Bible in English and Afrikaans but when reading it in Hebrew the clues are there. I have posted it before but the revelation of Jesus in the names in Genesis 5, the revelation of Jesus in the first Hebrew word Bereshit in the Bible… there are so much more to this book we are reading but:

Pro 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

 

[Rainrider]

Exactly!

And again, it's not a big deal,

God set apart the seventh day that begins at sunset in Israel.

if we want to honor the Sabbath like God did,

that's the day we would want to honor.

Yet when outside of Israel, the Sabbath does, start at sunset. There is not once passage in the Bible that will ever show this is wrong. Even almost every Rabbi in the world will tell you this. So I now know to watch closely what you ask, had that been made clear, I would have had to stay with my first answer. So let me do this. If you are asking when the FISRT Sabbath started, we will need to keep in mind that there was only one land mass at that time. That changes the way one should look at when the Sabbath starts in the land where you are standing.
If one is asking does the Sabbath start at sunset in the land where you are standing, the answer is YES>

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

What about Enoch, and Elijah? Both were taken and never tasted death. Can it be that they both walked a life with out sin? The wages of sin is death, so to be taken and never taste death, shows us something about their lives.

I have often thought about this but the Bible teaches us all have sinned so we have to accept that they have sinned as well.

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

He was transformed because of his faith, not the fact that he had no sin

 

[Rainrider]

How did those in the Old Testament know Jesus? In what form did they know Him?

They didn't know as we do, yet they did know of HIm. They know Him as a King that was going to come, and lead Israel into victory over their enemies. It was faith in Yeshua that lead to salvation, it was faith in HaShem. Just as the Hebrew name for Yeshua means, in English, "God Is Salvation" so to was it faith in God that lead to salvation before His death.

This verse seems to indicate that most people did not really know Him as we know the Lord Jesus Christ.

John 1:10-11 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.


[SUP]11 [/SUP] He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

It seems to be people in the Old Testament were saved because they believed God - whatever He said to them at the time.

Jesus said that no one knows the Father and He had come to reveal them to His children. Luke 10:22

The writer of Hebrews says that "In times past God spoke through the law and the prophets" but in these last days has spoke to us through the Son.

Hebrews 1:1-3 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]

God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,

[SUP]2 [/SUP] in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

[SUP]3 [/SUP] And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,


The scriptures are obviously progressive revelation of the Lord and of the true nature of our Father. Jesus Himself is the exact representation of the true nature of our Father.

Luk 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

As we can see, it also tells us that no one knows the Son. Does this mean that we still don't know Him, or can we get to know Him by His Word? If we can get to know Him, then we must ask, can one not get to know the Father by a study of His word? The answer to both is YES. As we should know John Chapter one, and other passages make it clear they are one. So when we get to know one, we also find that we know the other. Follow me on that?
I ask as I may not have that as clear as it was in my mind.

 

[Rainrider]

I am sorry
I realize that I will never be able to discuss the law (just as I can't discuss works) with anyone

To me, it causes confusion to those who have not first entered into the restored relationship which is through fellowship with HIS SON through faith in HIM who teaches and leads us by HIS SPIRIT

I see that those who do not believe will be misled in thinking that by doing good works, or following the outward checklist of the law, that they will be justified in the sight of GOD


But if they are not washed and covered and marked by faith in HIS blood which washes and covers and marks us as belonging to GOD, it will be a futile attempt at trying to earn salvation apart from THE ONE through whom
qe have access to THE FATHER

It's because of HIM that we have access to THE FATHER and apart from
HIM, and without HIS COVERING we can not approach the throne of GRACE uncovered

If you would read what is being said, you would soon find that not one person here said it is by law alone.

 

[Rainrider]

The truth behind THE LAW was to lead us to CHRIST

If anyone denies this, please feel free to explain

nor that I will agree but feel free to explain it

by our words we will be justified

May I ask you something? I am not being rude, I just need to know. Is it at all possable for you to just slow down, and see what is being said here? To try and think as though you are hearing somethng for the firt ime, and have a true need to know the answer? If so, then I will take this to what the real truth behind the Law is, as I see it. I am not about to say I know everything, nor should any of us. As we can only work with what is placed before us.
The only way one will ever understand teh NT. is to firt get an idea what the OT really tells us. Let me show what I mean, and please don't get upset. I am going to just make something up off the top of my head. It is called a Midresh, ( if I spelled that right) or a Parable. It is story that is not true, yet holds truth with in it.

There was a man that had only one book, and he used that book to teach the world. In it he found that the world was flat, and the whole world followed this teaching. It soon became teh truth, and anyone that didn't see this was blind or insane. As this man went about teaching, some wrote down his words. His words soon became a new book. In that book it was once said that the world ended, where the sun went down. In time, someone said, Looks the world will end when the sun goes down, and the world seen this in the book, and everyone got ready to dye.
It never came about, and the world was sad.
Then a man come along and teaches that the sun never really set at all, as the world is round. So it is always day some place. the world having been following the teaching of the first man so long, they killed the second man. Only to find latter that world was round, and the it ws day someplace all the time. yet they didn't think of the second man, as he was wrong.

This is kind of what we find when reading the Bible from only one side of a story. The word is flat, and if anyone says thats wrong they ar lost. It does not matter what they say, it only matters what I think, so we need to kill him.

When one reads the NT, they must do so with the understanding that Paul, or any of it's writers had to teach from the OT, and to teach that the OT was wrong, would be to say that HaShem is wrong. Does that make any sense to you? If not, then I will try once more.

 

[gotime]

May I ask you something? I am not being rude, I just need to know. Is it at all possable for you to just slow down, and see what is being said here? To try and think as though you are hearing somethng for the firt ime, and have a true need to know the answer? If so, then I will take this to what the real truth behind the Law is, as I see it. I am not about to say I know everything, nor should any of us. As we can only work with what is placed before us.
The only way one will ever understand teh NT. is to firt get an idea what the OT really tells us. Let me show what I mean, and please don't get upset. I am going to just make something up off the top of my head. It is called a Midresh, ( if I spelled that right) or a Parable. It is story that is not true, yet holds truth with in it.

There was a man that had only one book, and he used that book to teach the world. In it he found that the world was flat, and the whole world followed this teaching. It soon became teh truth, and anyone that didn't see this was blind or insane. As this man went about teaching, some wrote down his words. His words soon became a new book. In that book it was once said that the world ended, where the sun went down. In time, someone said, Looks the world will end when the sun goes down, and the world seen this in the book, and everyone got ready to dye.
It never came about, and the world was sad.
Then a man come along and teaches that the sun never really set at all, as the world is round. So it is always day some place. the world having been following the teaching of the first man so long, they killed the second man. Only to find latter that world was round, and the it ws day someplace all the time. yet they didn't think of the second man, as he was wrong.

This is kind of what we find when reading the Bible from only one side of a story. The word is flat, and if anyone says thats wrong they ar lost. It does not matter what they say, it only matters what I think, so we need to kill him.

When one reads the NT, they must do so with the understanding that Paul, or any of it's writers had to teach from the OT, and to teach that the OT was wrong, would be to say that HaShem is wrong. Does that make any sense to you? If not, then I will try once more.

You know it took me a long time to see what you are saying here. But it is true that the OT is the standard of truth.

Don't get me wrong the NT is truth also in that it teaches the truth form the OT. That is why I personally never accept anything someone can't back up from the OT.

 

[Rainrider]

You know it took me a long time to see what you are saying here. But it is true that the OT is the standard of truth.

Don't get me wrong the NT is truth also in that it teaches the truth form the OT. That is why I personally never accept anything someone can't back up from the OT.

So I didn't make as clear as it seemed in my head? I will think on it as I am sure I will have to try once more anyway. Thanks for the heads up my friend.

 

[Burninglight]

The truth behind THE LAW was to lead us to CHRIST

If anyone denies this, please feel free to explain

nor that I will agree but feel free to explain it

by our words we will be justified

The reason I believe the law leads us to Christ is because we cannot keep the law; so, our only hope is in Christ who was able to do it.

 

[gotime]

So I didn't make as clear as it seemed in my head? I will think on it as I am sure I will have to try once more anyway. Thanks for the heads up my friend.

No no brother its not what you wrote, when I said it took a long time to see what you said. I am talking about years of not seeing the OT.