The truth behind the Law

[Rainrider]

No no brother its not what you wrote, when I said it took a long time to see what you said. I am talking about years of not seeing the OT.

Oh ok. I never tried to put a midresh together before so I really though it was going to go way wrong. LOL
Thank you for letting me know I didn't do horrible.

 

[Dan_473]

Yet when outside of Israel, the Sabbath does, start at sunset. There is not once passage in the Bible that will ever show this is wrong. Even almost every Rabbi in the world will tell you this. So I now know to watch closely what you ask, had that been made clear, I would have had to stay with my first answer. So let me do this. If you are asking when the FISRT Sabbath started, we will need to keep in mind that there was only one land mass at that time. That changes the way one should look at when the Sabbath starts in the land where you are standing.
If one is asking does the Sabbath start at sunset in the land where you are standing, the answer is YES>

if you live at one of the poles, the sun will set once a year

if you work aboard the International Space Station, maybe every ninety minutes

if you live just to the west of a hill, the sun will set
but then go to the top of the hill, the sun is still up


but again, it's not a big deal unless it's critical to carefully keep the law

 

[miknik5]

They were being called out for their teaching of mans laws, over Biblical Law.

Once more, they used Rabbinic Law. Though their is not much difference in the 2, Rabbinic Law was so full of things that were never intended, in Biblical Law.
Rabbinic Law didn't allow, Healing on Sabbath, picking up a stick, dragging a stick, putting out or lighting a lamp, bringing an animal for sacrifice, or taking more than the alotted number of steeps.

Biblical Law did not say a word about any of this. In fact by Biblical Law, if a stick was in the path, it was right to move it by what ever means you could, helping the sick, if need one had the right to light or put out a lamp. If one reads the answers given by Yeshua, He was always telling them the true meaning of the Law, and never did He in any way vindicate Rabbinic law.

I'm really sorry to be posting here again but what did baptism imply? And would it fit in as a manmade or a rabbinical law as well? Since they didn't do what it appeared should have been done since the Lord of the Sabbath, HIMSELF, also was baptized
(Not that HE needed to be baptized but HE had to fulfill all the righteous requirements of THE LAW)


are you sure Christ was calling them out on following manmade and rabbinical laws?

or calling them out on the fact that they could not make a right judgement concerning HIM
and did not believe?

 

[Rainrider]

if you live at one of the poles, the sun will set once a year

if you work aboard the International Space Station, maybe every ninety minutes

if you live just to the west of a hill, the sun will set
but then go to the top of the hill, the sun is still up


but again, it's not a big deal unless it's critical to carefully keep the law

When one makes the Law more complicated then it really is, they take a chance of losing sight of the true intent of the Law. This is the kind of thing that Yeshua faced from the Pharisee's, they had bent the law into something it was never meant to be. In doing so they made it so complex, thet when looked at from their teachings, it held no recognizable form of it's true reasoning.

Not trying to make any thing from what you posted, just using it as an example. It is the kind of reasoning that one would find in the Misnah. Most likely that would found coming from the House of Shmaya. Both houses would use extraneous arguments in their interpretation of Law. The end result, an interpretation that held no meaning from it's true intent. One should also work with care, and understanding when doing this.
As I do understand your point, I hope you will also understand that Sabbath is not so hard to follow. It has no hidden start time, nor dos it remain a constant. As with all Law, it does follow logic, and HaShem understands that when the Sunsets in any ton, that is the start of the day for that town.

 

[Rainrider]

I'm really sorry to be posting here again but what did baptism imply? And would it fit in as a manmade or a rabbinical law as well? Since they didn't do what it appeared should have been done since the Lord of the Sabbath, HIMSELF, also was baptized
(Not that HE needed to be baptized but HE had to fulfill all the righteous requirements of THE LAW)

If you are asking what Baptism implied, before Yeshua, it was meant as a means of purification. All people were to wash or immerse them selves to be made clean, of what ever sin, infliction, of illness. This can be seen throughout the book of Lev.
As for Yeshua need to be baptized, as stated, it was to show that He was clean, and able to enter the Temple. However, as we should know, baptism at this point, was not so much to wash away dirt, it was seen as a public profession of faith in the forgiveness of sin. As Yeshua had no Sin, his baptism may well have been called for as a means to show the world, that He was clean, and there by able to fulfill the requirements of our sacrifice. Although more than just one person in the world seen this as His following the Law, so that He would be able to complete Him ministry, having fulfilled the requirements of purification.
If one goes to Israel they will find in almost every city that has been excavated, a cross shaped mikveh is found. So it is clear that what we call baptism has been around for as long as the land of Israel.

are you sure Christ was calling them out on following manmade and rabbinical laws?

I am absolutely sure of this. When we read of the Pharisee's asking Yeshua about Law, His answers make it clear they have strayed from the True Laws. To give just one example,
Mat 15:3 Jesus replied, “And why do you, by your traditions, violate the direct commandments of God?

I do ask that you read this chapter in full, that you may find the Context I am using it in, is true. This same form of trickery, and dishonest questioning is used today by some. They formulate their question so that if one answers one way, they got them under the pretext of their teachings, if they answer another, they show their own teachings to be wrong. I have seen this used by some when they question me. As of yet I have not had any come back and say that my answer is wrong, by their teachings our my own. Yet it is a given that if their question, did not fit the LAw, I didn't answer in a way that would show I agree with them.

or calling them out on the fact that they could not make a right judgement concerning HIM
and did not believe?

Yes He did call them out on not knowing who He was.
Mat 13:57 And they were deeply offended and refused to believe in him. Then Jesus told them, “A prophet is honored everywhere except in his own hometown and among his own family.”
Mat 16:3 red sky in the morning means foul weather all day.’ You know how to interpret the weather signs in the sky, but you don’t know how to interpret the signs of the times!
Jhn 15:24


If I hadn’t done such miraculous signs among them that no one else could do, they would not be guilty. But as it is, they have seen everything I did, yet they still hate me and my Father.

Yet even then He was also letting it be know they lacked knowledge. This lack of understanding on their part, is why they didn't see what was right in front of them.

 

[joefizz]

kind of still ironic that people can't agree on what is right concerning the law,and the grace plan,in fact both sides of this are correct,Jesus fulfilled the law and didn't abolish it,and to be under grace is to not be under the law,yet both are important,true we can't abide by the law wholly for there is none perfect nor good no not one,but remember paul's words"if we are under grace and not the law,shall we sin,God forbid,you see the law is still to be upheld only by means of what can honestly be done while under grace,to be more accurate the grace plan is a gift that keeps us from having to be judged by the law,as in death,if you are under grace you are to strive for perfection,not pretend that the old law is not important,for it is still God's law and to do right by it is of spiritual value,for what are we to say,that God's law doesn't matter anymore? Nay for since God gave it to man,it is indeed important,to deny that the so called old law is of importance or helpfulness to us is to deny God,for God's word is not simply the bible,the bible is a portion of his word,for "in the beginning was the word and the word was God",in essence God's whole word is every single statute or commandment he gave to man,as well as the bible,and his word is to be written upon your heart so that you can "teach" others about God,and "show" just how we are to be for God,by caring for one another as ourselves,the law of God goes hand in hand with the grace plan,true it does not condemn us but it is still there for a reason to remind us what is right and what is wrong in God's view,giving "understanding",now as to quote "doing" the law,this is a choice but in truth you must uphold the whole law if you choose to serve God this way,though I would warn you that the time of sacrifices has long since past for God gave the "ultimate sacrifice"if you seek to do the "whole law",then uphold the commandments and statutes accordingly,but I would not have you be ignorant in that God doesn't desire "animal sacrifices" he seeks for his children to sacrifice their "time" for him,so that others can be led to God,and is it not written"to obey is better than sacrifice,and to hearken than the fat of rams.1Samuel chapter 15 verse 22(apologies I use only the old king james version but this thread is for answers so alongside the holy spirit I've done what I can.)

 

[Rainrider]

kind of still ironic that people can't agree on what is right concerning the law,and the grace plan,in fact both sides of this are correct,Jesus fulfilled the law and didn't abolish it,and to be under grace is to not be under the law,yet both are important,true we can't abide by the law wholly for there is none perfect nor good no not one,but remember paul's words"if we are under grace and not the law,shall we sin,God forbid,you see the law is still to be upheld only by means of what can honestly be done while under grace,to be more accurate the grace plan is a gift that keeps us from having to be judged by the law,as in death,if you are under grace you are to strive for perfection,not pretend that the old law is not important,for it is still God's law and to do right by it is of spiritual value,for what are we to say,that God's law doesn't matter anymore? Nay for since God gave it to man,it is indeed important,to deny that the so called old law is of importance or helpfulness to us is to deny God,for God's word is not simply the bible,the bible is a portion of his word,for "in the beginning was the word and the word was God",in essence God's whole word is every single statute or commandment he gave to man,as well as the bible,and his word is to be written upon your heart so that you can "teach" others about God,and "show" just how we are to be for God,by caring for one another as ourselves,the law of God goes hand in hand with the grace plan,true it does not condemn us but it is still there for a reason to remind us what is right and what is wrong in God's view,giving "understanding",now as to quote "doing" the law,this is a choice but in truth you must uphold the whole law if you choose to serve God this way,though I would warn you that the time of sacrifices has long since past for God gave the "ultimate sacrifice"if you seek to do the "whole law",then uphold the commandments and statutes accordingly,but I would not have you be ignorant in that God doesn't desire "animal sacrifices" he seeks for his children to sacrifice their "time" for him,so that others can be led to God,and is it not written"to obey is better than sacrifice,and to hearken than the fat of rams.1Samuel chapter 15 verse 22(apologies I use only the old king james version but this thread is for answers so alongside the holy spirit I've done what I can.)

Sadly your words echo my own. So I hold out no hope of change i the next 1000 years or so.

 

[Burninglight]

kind of still ironic that people can't agree on what is right concerning the law,and the grace plan,in fact both sides of this are correct,Jesus fulfilled the law and didn't abolish it,and to be under grace is to not be under the law,yet both are important,true we can't abide by the law wholly for there is none perfect nor good no not one,but remember paul's words"if we are under grace and not the law,shall we sin,God forbid,you see the law is still to be upheld only by means of what can honestly be done while under grace,to be more accurate the grace plan is a gift that keeps us from having to be judged by the law,as in death,if you are under grace you are to strive for perfection,not pretend that the old law is not important,for it is still God's law and to do right by it is of spiritual value,for what are we to say,that God's law doesn't matter anymore? Nay for since God gave it to man,it is indeed important,to deny that the so called old law is of importance or helpfulness to us is to deny God,for God's word is not simply the bible,the bible is a portion of his word,for "in the beginning was the word and the word was God",in essence God's whole word is every single statute or commandment he gave to man,as well as the bible,and his word is to be written upon your heart so that you can "teach" others about God,and "show" just how we are to be for God,by caring for one another as ourselves,the law of God goes hand in hand with the grace plan,true it does not condemn us but it is still there for a reason to remind us what is right and what is wrong in God's view,giving "understanding",now as to quote "doing" the law,this is a choice but in truth you must uphold the whole law if you choose to serve God this way,though I would warn you that the time of sacrifices has long since past for God gave the "ultimate sacrifice"if you seek to do the "whole law",then uphold the commandments and statutes accordingly,but I would not have you be ignorant in that God doesn't desire "animal sacrifices" he seeks for his children to sacrifice their "time" for him,so that others can be led to God,and is it not written"to obey is better than sacrifice,and to hearken than the fat of rams.1Samuel chapter 15 verse 22(apologies I use only the old king james version but this thread is for answers so alongside the holy spirit I've done what I can.)

So are you saying we are under grace but must keep the law too? If so, what law are you referring to? You mentioned the commandments and statutes. Are you saying the commandments are the law, the statutes or both? All those who state we must strive to keep the law perfectly must identify exactly what that law is? Otherwise, how can one follow what cannot be clearly identified?

 

[Burninglight]

Sadly your words echo my own. So I hold out no hope of change i the next 1000 years or so.

Joefizz is saying both those that say it is only by grace through faith and those that say it is by works are right.

So are you saying we are under grace but must keep the law too? If so, I must also ask you the same questions: What law are you referring to? The commandments and statutes were mentioned.

Are you saying the commandments are the law, the statutes or both? All those who state we must strive to keep the law perfectly must identify exactly what that law is? Otherwise, how can one follow what cannot be clearly identified? And how can we be saved if we cannot keep the law perfectly? Don't forget to explain what part the ceremonial laws have for us as well.

I doubt this debate will last another 1000 years.

 

[miknik5]

No sir, I don't need for you to explain BAPTISM for me. I know what BAPTISM means and is
and I don't believe I would ever have used the word "implies"

I know what it means to be made clean
just like the Canaanite woman in Matthew 15 understood...
just as CHRIST reflected and explained in John 13
and just like Peter and Cornelius and his family came to understand in Acts 10

so no sir I fully understand what baptism means
not only that, I know who it is who baptizes and I know what HE makes clean is clean



however, I do have s question for you


why when you expounded John 15 you left out a very important truth?

 

[miknik5]

Specifically the verses you mentioned when you stated the above
It's interesting how you melded Matthew 16 with John 15 and tried to justify that Christ came to give signs ansctgatvbe ause of our lack of knowledge ( again, not sure I would have used that word) we can't see

I see sir
but I see something you missed in John 15:22 through 25

not toemtion that JESUS was prior to saying this, that one must remain in HIM
and that apart from HIM one can do nothing

so I am interested in understanding if you can explain the piece you missed in John 15:22 through 25 (in context to Matthew 22
THE WEDDING GARMENT) or why CHRIST clearly said in John 15:22-25 (after telling those who believed in HIM
by faith to REMAIN in HIM) "you need a cloke.for your sins"

since GOD's WORD does not contradict HIS WORD

 

[Grandpa]

IF you want to go back to the law then by all means do so.

Just don't call it Christianity.

Romans 7:4-6
[FONT=&quot]4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.


If we are dead to the law we aren't looking to it to try and work at it.

If we are dead to the law we are looking to Christ instead for all of our righteousness, blessing and instruction.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Romans 8:1-4
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Galatians 3:24-26
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.


All the wisdom and knowledge stored up in the law shouldn't cause you to say "Yeah, I can do that". It should cause you to say, instead, "Who can possibly do that"? No one can, is the answer, except the Lord Jesus Christ.

So, if you are stiff-necked, you continue to work at the law in your own understanding believing you are wise. But the law is not where wisdom comes from.[/FONT]

 

[miknik5]

They hated HIM because they didn't believe HE was who HE claimed HIMSELF to be

tgats why HE said if I had not come and done amongst you what no other, you would have no din

nur now you need a cloke for your sins

no different than what HE said to the "knowledgeable"" Pharisees when they questioned the blind man from birth who came to a right judgement while these "learned, knowledgeable teachers" couldn't

 

[miknik5]

After one is washed and made clean by THE ONE who washes and makes clean before GOD what apart from HIM washing is unclean...how much more cleaner can they make themselves after that?

they need to keep going back to HIM

just as John 13 explains

 

[miknik5]

Can't seem to post off a post

 

[Burninglight]

IF you want to go back to the law then by all means do so.

Just don't call it Christianity.

.

They can call it Judaism

 

[Grandpa]

They can call it Judaism

Or Judaism Lite depending on how many laws they really want to try to work at.

 

[Burninglight]

I would like to know how many on this forum believe we are saved only by grace through faith_________.....

How many believe it is by works following the law?____________....

How many believe it is by both the law and works?_____________.....

Please sign your name on the dotted line that pertains to you.

 

[Grandpa]

I would like to know how many on this forum believe we are saved only by grace through faith_Grandpa_...

 

[Burninglight]

Or Judaism Lite depending on how many laws they really want to try to work at.

OH Please, I am too old to be confused like this. I have enough gray hairs, but you can't get to heaven on my hair, because there isn't much there.
Keep in mind, there have only been a few perfect heads created; the rest have hair there or on their heads. .. lol