Not By Works

JIMBO43 · Jul 3, 2017

mY I REMIND YOU THAT THE WORD CAN SAVE..
1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those ...

1_corinthians/1-18.htm

But we who are being saved know it is the very power of God. English Standard Version For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are ... 19For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the .... There are some who shall not perish; the Father has chose them unto

AND THIS

Unashamed of the Gospel
15That is why I am so eager to preach the gospel also to you who are in Rome. 16I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes,

UnderGrace · Jul 3, 2017

Agreed, this view makes scripture wonderfully consistent as it should be of course!!

I pose my question to you because even when we have a difference of view (tongues for example

) you never make it personal.
I appreciate that!

With regards to 2 Thel 2:3, we know a Christian is justified by God and so there is no falling away from justification/salvation, but yes falling from grace can happen...so in this chapter I have read that the "falling away" based on the larger context is not about those who have been justified but about the larger world who did not receive the love of the truth but were in a final revolt against God. (verse 10).

It is these people who receive the strong delusion. It seems this is about the big picture about mankind and there regard for God not about believers.

It my understanding that the Greek word can also mean a type of political revolt. In context, this understanding works within the entire teachings that believers are eternally justified and falling away needs to be understood within context of the passage.

Grace777x70 said:

In order to keep the deceit down to a minimum - I will post this again for about the 15th time in the hope that it will be a blessing to someone who is struggling in their Christian life.

All forms of self-effort to maintain and create one's own righteousness is "falling or departing from the faith" and trusting in their own works. This is true "apostasy" and I am against it in all it's forms - from outright sinning to believing in a works-based salvation.

Personally I am vehemently against all forms of sinning as they all bring destruction of some sort to us while on this earth - especially the one of unbelief in Christ's finished work on the cross.

I don't see any difference in sinning by living a homosexual lifestyle to having malice, bitterness, having outbursts of anger, being deceitful, being jealous and envious and the slandering of others in the body of Christ. All of these, as well as all the works of the flesh bring about death to us in this life. They are contrary to the life off Christ in us now.

Here is my view on sin and it's affects on us and on how the Holy Spirit transforms us as we behold the glory ( goodness ) of our Lord as in a mirror. 2 Cor. 3:17-18

Sin changes our perspective on things and causes us to not look at our Father in the right light of who He truly is. ( The same as Adam and Eve did when they hid from Him even though He was still coming to visit with them and He still took care of them )

Sin also affects our ability to have harmonious relationships with others and it also distorts our view of others as well as ourselves. Sin is deceitful.

We chose to live holy lives because we are just being who we truly are in Christ - not to maintain right standing with God. This living good holy lives creates right relationships with people, it will not give our enemy an influence in our lives and it is a good witness to the world.

It reveals the true heart of our loving Father and Lord to show others in this hurt and dying world their love and grace towards them.

Your true identity is not defined by your struggles, mistakes, or sinful actions. These are all confined to the flesh and are the works of the flesh as Paul said. Who you are is defined by your new birth in Christ. You are who you are by His grace and life in you!

Behavioral issues are usually the result of trying to live under the law in some form - such as the false doctrine of "sinless perfection in the flesh" and that believers sealed with the Holy Spirit lose salvation. Jesus is NOT a liar when He said that the Holy spirit will be in you forever. John 14:16

This "lose your salvation" false doctrine which discourages believers and brings fear and hopelessness to them as they struggle in the flesh with some things.

This causes them to have their faith ship-wrecked because they feel condemned and don't know how to walk by the spirit yet nor are they taught the gospel of the grace of God in Christ properly in order to grow up in Him.

Once you understand you are completely accepted and sin free forever in Jesus in your inner man created in righteousness and holiness - and that this is your permanent state for all eternity in Christ - the behavioral issues will fall off of our lives like dead leaves.

The "sap" of His life in and through us transforms us outwardly by the Holy Spirit as we behold the glory ( goodness ) of the Lord Jesus as in a mirror. We see all the goodness that He has already done for us and we also see ourselves in Him as one spirit with the Lord. 2 Cor. 3:17-18

I maintain that the preaching and teaching of the love and grace of God in the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ brings true righteousness which is His alone and there will be deeds of His life manifested in us if we are fed Christ Himself and His righteousness to us.

He has cleansed our hearts by faith and now we are to walk from this new heart in Christ.

As we have received Him - so we walk in Him. Col. 2:6. It is all by grace through faith in what Christ has already done.

Meggido · Jul 3, 2017

Meggido said:

Let me add a few things here.

We do in fact, have grace teachers today saying that by grace we can live without ever spiritually maturing, we do not have to bear fruit or make disciples, and our confession for Jesus simply means we confess we he did for us.

Without saying it they are saying its OK to live an immoral life by the grace of God and that is fulfilling Jude 4 and a very dangerous place a for said teacher/preacher to be in...

This is lascivious grace and whether some of you truly want to acknowledge it, it is manifested and is taken over.....the lascivious grace movement is as evil as the word of faith movement and now the WOF teachers are latching hold of the lascivious grace movement message to justify their filthy lucre...

If you are under the teaching of anyone that elevates grace and denies the Lord Jesus Christ, you should be running...

Oh But grace does not do that....oh but yes it does and if you know the word and the truth of the word, you can hear it being preached on Christian TV in spades....

Stephen63 · Jul 3, 2017

Lordship salvation is not a salvation-by-works doctrine. Advocates of lordship salvation are careful to say that salvation is by grace alone, that believers are saved before their faith ever produces any good works, and that Christians can and do sin. However, true salvation will inevitably lead to a changed life. The saved will be dedicated to their Savior. A true Christian will not feel comfortable living in unconfessed, unforsaken sin.

Ariel82 · Jul 3, 2017

stonesoffire said:

This is my opinion and since I'm so old now, I think I can see a bit beyond some of you.

We can lose our first love from the experiences of life and fall away from fellowshipping for a time. Maybe even turn back into sin...but it will never satisfy one who has tasted of life. There is nothing like the presence of the Lord, and His touch. And we will ever be called back to our first love.

We have forces of evil that come against us. Plus our own flesh nature that we do not understand about when we first born from above. It becomes an overcoming lifestyle for us, and never stops until our time here is over. So we guard our heart jealously..and keep the fire of love burning. Those are the things we do...with our helper, Holy Spirit.

I think the 7 church warnings are what to take heed about.

And in the midst of this overcoming...the fruit of the Spirit grows and not only satisfies our own soul, but those of others.

Amen!.. ,,,,

FranC · Jul 3, 2017

dcontroversal said:

I learned from a great teacher...
YOU!

Ariel82 · Jul 3, 2017

Meggido said:

I see why you are moved to give this warning. I don't like the word of faith movement or TV preachers.

However we must be careful to not undermine the true grace message of Jesus Christ finished work upon the cross and how we can trust God for our salvation.

If you don't believe God gives us faith but our salvation, where does our faith come from?

I don't believe we should add "obey" to the definition of faith, but we should add to our faith the 2 Peter 1 attributes building up our faith until we are mature and rooted in Christ and able to obey and glorify God with good works.

JIMBO43 · Jul 3, 2017

Desdichado said:

WELL WHY DONT YOU go to another thread then as obviously salavtion is not important to you..

Stephen63 · Jul 3, 2017

Here are nine teachings that set lordship salvation apart from easy-believism:

1) Repentance is not a simple synonym for faith. Scripture teaches that sinners must exercise faith in conjunction with repentance (Acts 2:38; 17:30; 20:21; 2 Peter 3:9). Repentance is a change of mind from embrace of sin and rejection of Christ to a rejection of sin and an embrace of Christ (Acts 3:19; Luke 24:47), and even this is a gift of God (2 Timothy 2:25). Genuine repentance, which comes when a person submits to the lordship of Christ, cannot help but result in a change of behavior (Luke 3:8; Acts 26:18–20).

2) A Christian is a new creation and cannot just “stop believing” and lose salvation. Faith itself is a gift of God (Ephesians 2:1–5, 8), and real faith endures forever (Philippians 1:6). Salvation is all God’s work, not man’s. Those who believe in Christ as Lord are saved apart from any effort of their own (Titus 3:5).

This is obviously stating Lordship Salvation isn't works salvation.

JIMBO43 · Jul 3, 2017

UnderGrace said:

Agreed, this view makes scripture wonderfully consistent as it should be of course!!

I pose my question to you because even when we have a difference of view (tongues for example

) you never make it personal.
I appreciate that!

With regards to 2 Thel 2:3, we know a Christian is justified by God and so there is no falling away from justification/salvation, but yes falling from grace can happen...so in this chapter I have read that the "falling away" based on the larger context is not about those who have been justified but about the larger world who did not receive the love of the truth but were in a final revolt against God. (verse 10).

It is these people who receive the strong delusion. It seems this is about the big picture about mankind and there regard for God not about believers.

It my understanding that the Greek word can also mean a type of political revolt. In context, this understanding works within the entire teachings that believers are eternally justified and falling away needs to be understood within context of the passage.

This is good if you believe in what way ? just my two sence..

Meggido · Jul 3, 2017

Stephen63 said:

This will cause heads to truly explode....

1 Cor 12.1-3

Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware. [SUP]2 [/SUP]You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the mute idols, however you were led. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

The reason why many in lascivious grace movements can state Jesus does not have to be Lord of your life as well, is because they do not teach the ministry of the HOly Spirit and his gifts are not for today and MacArthur even teaches absolute Cessastion, which is why I cannot agree with him on anything.

Even most of the Pentecostal, Charismatic or Full Gospel people are moving away from the HOly Spirit ministry now, because the leaven of lascivious grace is so hard to resist.

I do not know how many people I pray with that tell me...well Jesus is my savior....you ask, Good is he Lord....they walk away....narrow is the way.....

dcontroversal · Jul 3, 2017

JIMBO43 said:

Again...nothing of consequence comes of your posts....keep defending falsehoods....serious!

Meggido · Jul 3, 2017

Ariel82 said:

I see why you are moved to give this warning. I don't like the word of faith movement or TV preachers.

However we must be careful to not undermine the true grace message of Jesus Christ finished work upon the cross and how we can trust God for our salvation.

If you don't believe God gives us faith but our salvation, where does our faith come from?

I don't believe we should add "obey" to the definition of faith, but we should add to our faith the 2 Peter 1 attributes building up our faith until we are mature and rooted in Christ and able to obey and glorify God with good works.

God has given each man a measure of saving faith....

JIMBO43 · Jul 3, 2017

Stephen63 said:

Just to clarify are you saying real faith can be given instead of a diffrent faith ? are you saying some peoples faiths that are given are diffrent ?? or are you saying,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,!!!!!!!!!!! that the only faith that gets given is a real faith that will never perish..

and of course are you saying youve had yours given ?

dcontroversal · Jul 3, 2017

FranC said:

Right.......................!!!

UnderGrace · Jul 3, 2017

dcon.... this has been a great thread to discuss the important topic of works and the gift of salvation never to be forsaken or taken back, I have learned from the naysayers as well as those who agree with the OP.

But when I read a post like that which is a totally wrong understanding of the grace of God, and then to use it an accusatory manner...wow.

We can hope that a person fights the hardest before they are able to concede and finally see the light, I guess that will be my prayer but at a distance.

I admire your ability to fight the good fight of truth, it will not go unrewarded I am sure!

But...I am shaking the dust off it is getting way too thick...

Originally Posted by FranC

You take advantage of the grace of God.
End of story.

dcontroversal said:

JIMBO43 · Jul 3, 2017

dcontroversal said:

No i defend those who i feel need defending.. its you who are over stepping the mark yet again not me... pal,,,

havent you caused enough trouble where do you get off pal...

dcontroversal · Jul 3, 2017

UnderGrace said:

dcon.... this has been a great thread to discuss the important topic of works and the gift of salvation never to be forsaken or taken back, I have learned from the naysayers as well as those who agree with the OP.

But when I read a post like that which is a totally wrong understanding of the grace of God, and then to use it an accusatory manner...wow.

We can hope that a person fights the hardest before they are able to concede and finally see the light, I guess that will be my prayer but at a distance.

I admire your ability to fight the good fight of truth, it will not go unrewarded I am sure!

But...I am shaking the dust off it is getting way too thick...

Originally Posted by FranC

You take advantage of the grace of God.
End of story.

AMEN, but no need to give it over to the working for, sinless perfectionists who undermine the grace, blood, and sacrifice of Christ in favor of a dogma that has no power to save....just saying......

Grace777x70 · Jul 3, 2017

Meggido said:

Grace777x70 said:

I never said anything about licentious or lascivious "grace" - that's your own wording.

I said - I don't believe in living licentiously. I have said over 100x times that the true grace of God in Christ's finished work when preached correctly will "teach" us how to live godly in this present life.

An example of these doctrine of demons was shown in Paul's writing in 1 Tim. 4:1-6 when he said that some would depart from the faith.

All works-based believers as well as those living in out-right rebellion are "departing from the faith" whether they see it or not. People are free to believe what they want about this subject and whatever their church teachings have taught them.

Departing from the faith is living from our own self-effort and that includes outright sinning as well as trying to create and maintain our own righteousness.

It is an anti-Christ belief system that is based on this world's way of thinking. The church is full of this type of believing as can be seen in these threads day after day.

As far as "turning the grace of God" : It is talking about "replacing grace" for something else in it's place.

The word for "turn" in Jude 1:4 means to "replace" or "in place of" or " to transpose"...people are replacing the grace of God for something else.

It does not mean that people are "turning" grace into lewdness or licentiousness as the KJV seems to look like it is saying.

It has nothing to do with so-called easy believism/OSAS believers using grace as a license to sin which is constantly being accused of. Paul was slanderously accused of the very same thing when he taught grace.

Here are some scriptures where the exact same Greek word is used to see how it is used. You can readily see that the word means to transpose or to exchange from one place to another.

Acts 7:16 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] "From there they were removed to Shechem and laid in the tomb which Abraham had purchased for a sum of money from the sons of Hamor in Shechem.

Galatians 1:6 (KJV)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

Hebrews 11:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Here is what the Greek word means:

"To transpose, put in another place and hence to transport, transfer"

Complete Word Study Dictionary, The - The Complete Word Study Dictionary – New Testament.

UnderGrace · Jul 3, 2017

True....Maybe I will visit again next week. LOL

dcontroversal said:

Not By Works

Banned

UnderGrace

Guest

Banned

Banned

Ariel82

Guest

Banned

Ariel82

Guest

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

UnderGrace

Guest

Banned

Banned

Banned

UnderGrace

Guest