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His sheep know His voice. One of the promises of Scripture, and a mystery of life.
Who is against it? Why do you assume such things?
Are you devoid of understanding that a personal relationship with Christ is based on the person of Christ, and his revelation to you through the working of the holy Spirit of God in your life? I pray you come to know Him. When you do you may better understand how someone can come to faith through Christ, through the Living Lord, through direct personal empirical experiences. Believing Scripture came AFTER that, not before. It does not mean I reject Scripture or the historicity of Christ. Those are ridiculous things for you to assume. I believe the Bible because of God and not the other way around.
You want to believe that the popes received personal revelation and that their pronouncements are infallible even when they contradict the revealed written Word of God. You want to believe it and you want us to accept it but it is not going to happen. The Mariology pushed by the institution of the RCC is especially disturbing to anyone who loves the purity of the Truth of God's Word. The RCC elevates Mary far above and beyond anything Jesus recognized her for, though there is much else any sane person would want to distance themselves from. The RCC perverted the faith and Catholics largely refuse to acknowledge this.
Who is against it? Why do you assume such things?
Are you devoid of understanding that a personal relationship with Christ is based on the person of Christ, and his revelation to you through the working of the holy Spirit of God in your life? I pray you come to know Him. When you do you may better understand how someone can come to faith through Christ, through the Living Lord, through direct personal empirical experiences. Believing Scripture came AFTER that, not before. It does not mean I reject Scripture or the historicity of Christ. Those are ridiculous things for you to assume. I believe the Bible because of God and not the other way around.
You want to believe that the popes received personal revelation and that their pronouncements are infallible even when they contradict the revealed written Word of God. You want to believe it and you want us to accept it but it is not going to happen. The Mariology pushed by the institution of the RCC is especially disturbing to anyone who loves the purity of the Truth of God's Word. The RCC elevates Mary far above and beyond anything Jesus recognized her for, though there is much else any sane person would want to distance themselves from. The RCC perverted the faith and Catholics largely refuse to acknowledge this.
W
His original questions had nothing to do with the Catholic religion. So why keep pushing? You turned this into a discussion about Catholics instead of what other Christians believe. If he would have left out the fact he is Catholic this may have went a lot smoother. But he probably thought it was best to be honest right off the bat about it. If there was anyone I knew that wanted to ask anything on this forum I would advise them to not disclose their denomination because that is what people will focus on instead of the question/s they ask.
[for me anyway] it is by grace "through faith" as it is written: many fail to say the whole of it, leaving it desolate, because we only have access into this grace wherein we stand "through faith": and faith cometh only and exclusively by hearing the Word of God, and hearing is not merely listening, rather it is to accept and submit to and rely upon God's Word. Again it is written that the just shall live by faith, which is to say that the just shall live by submitting to and relying upon the Word of God. But back to grace, which is mercy without judgment, whereas the law is judgment without mercy: but the grace of God we may receive is through submitting to and relying upon God's Word (especially concerning the Lord Jesus Christ): for the law was given by Moses; but grace and Truth came by Jesus Christ. As for Catholic or Protestant: is Christ divided? was Catholic crucified for us? or were we baptized in the name of Protestant? for while one says: I am of Catholic, and another says: I am of Protestant; are we not then still carnal, and walk as a secular minded one? Again as for me I am a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ, and if I must needs make use of some title or label, then I would say that I am a mere Christian, and nothing else. We have made ourselves consumed with this world's ways in labeling one another, so that the entire conversation is carnal without any spot of spiritual minded conveyance.
Ref. KJV only
(Ephesians 2:8-10)
(Romans 5:2)
(Romans 10:17)
(Habakkuk 2:4)
(James 2:13)
(John 1:17)
(1 Corinthians 1:12-13 & 3:3-4)
(John 5:43-44)
Ref. KJV only
(Ephesians 2:8-10)
(Romans 5:2)
(Romans 10:17)
(Habakkuk 2:4)
(James 2:13)
(John 1:17)
(1 Corinthians 1:12-13 & 3:3-4)
(John 5:43-44)
To the OP-
Watch these videos.
Professor Reeves' lectures explaining the history and tenants of the whole Reformation is second to none. I highly recommend the videos on ancient and medieval Church history as well for a broader context.
He's great at explaining how we got to where we are. You will also note the development of different Protestant sects. Where, when, and why they diverged. And ultimately what unites them (even if practicing Protestants are unaware).
At the very least, you'll see why throwing this question at an amorphous bunch of Protestants will get you about as many different answers as there are people. At least on this site.
Watch these videos.
Professor Reeves' lectures explaining the history and tenants of the whole Reformation is second to none. I highly recommend the videos on ancient and medieval Church history as well for a broader context.
He's great at explaining how we got to where we are. You will also note the development of different Protestant sects. Where, when, and why they diverged. And ultimately what unites them (even if practicing Protestants are unaware).
At the very least, you'll see why throwing this question at an amorphous bunch of Protestants will get you about as many different answers as there are people. At least on this site.
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you are right, his question is not about catholic,
But his statement that catholic is christocenter and one of his question on his conversation with me he ask, why Protestant not consider catholic as a brother, like baptist to methodist need a response
to response these 2 problem I need to tell him that to me catholic is not Christocenter, and I explain why. Of course It need to talk about catholic to explain the reason I do not agree that catholic is christocenter
.
But his statement that catholic is christocenter and one of his question on his conversation with me he ask, why Protestant not consider catholic as a brother, like baptist to methodist need a response
to response these 2 problem I need to tell him that to me catholic is not Christocenter, and I explain why. Of course It need to talk about catholic to explain the reason I do not agree that catholic is christocenter
.
I also think it would be nice if every protestant Church taught the early Church and its Fathers (theologians) instead of teaching hatred against fellow Christians, which many churches do and against Jesus' teaching that we are to be one Body.
My sis-in-law who attends a Nazarene Church is doing just this and their feeling for the Catholic Church have changed, even though they still disagree with some doctrine. But which Church has perfect doctrine??
P.S. by early Church, I mean pre-Constantine. After that, things started to change (for the worse).
My sis-in-law who attends a Nazarene Church is doing just this and their feeling for the Catholic Church have changed, even though they still disagree with some doctrine. But which Church has perfect doctrine??
P.S. by early Church, I mean pre-Constantine. After that, things started to change (for the worse).
I do not think that catholic is Christian and to love them mean to tell the true not to lie to hem.
to hate them than please lie to them
If you see your love one walk toward gorge we have to warn him for his safety.
To say you are ok brother, keep going, is hearted,not love.
I love them, that why I tell them that purgatory is lie, pope promote one world government, that is devil agenda
According to ex one of pope assistance, in 1963, Lucifer was enthroned in St. Paul chapel, vatican etc
that is love
to hate them than please lie to them
If you see your love one walk toward gorge we have to warn him for his safety.
To say you are ok brother, keep going, is hearted,not love.
I love them, that why I tell them that purgatory is lie, pope promote one world government, that is devil agenda
According to ex one of pope assistance, in 1963, Lucifer was enthroned in St. Paul chapel, vatican etc
that is love
W
Hey guys, guess what?! All of your angry bashing of Catholicism, your telling me how uninformed I am, how wicked the Catholic Church is, and how little I know God has really convinced me. I am going to leave the Catholic Church and join one of your denominations!
The only problem is, I don't know which one to join? Could someone help me know how it is that I am supposed to know who is right between you all?
You have convinced me that I ought to follow the Bible alone but I just don't know how to interpret it (as you have proven). How can I be sure that I am understanding it correctly?
Also you got me worried when you mentioned some people adding books to the Bible, others subtracting them, so I want to know, how can I know for sure which books are even in the Bible? Since I don't know the Bible well, could you please tell me what passage in the Bible gives the list of the correct books?
Also I am trying to find the passage where Jesus told us all to go out and read our Bibles for ourselves and just have an individual relationship with Him based on my own subjective experience. I found some stuff about Him calling the Apostles together and forming a group of disciples and His commissioning them to go out to fulfill the mission of Israel as the New Israel bearing His own authority, but that is about all I coould come up with.
Anyways if you could help me out with this that would be great. It's just hard being so ignorant and knowing so little about God, which is why I am thankful for helpful Christians like you all!
The only problem is, I don't know which one to join? Could someone help me know how it is that I am supposed to know who is right between you all?
You have convinced me that I ought to follow the Bible alone but I just don't know how to interpret it (as you have proven). How can I be sure that I am understanding it correctly?
Also you got me worried when you mentioned some people adding books to the Bible, others subtracting them, so I want to know, how can I know for sure which books are even in the Bible? Since I don't know the Bible well, could you please tell me what passage in the Bible gives the list of the correct books?
Also I am trying to find the passage where Jesus told us all to go out and read our Bibles for ourselves and just have an individual relationship with Him based on my own subjective experience. I found some stuff about Him calling the Apostles together and forming a group of disciples and His commissioning them to go out to fulfill the mission of Israel as the New Israel bearing His own authority, but that is about all I coould come up with.
Anyways if you could help me out with this that would be great. It's just hard being so ignorant and knowing so little about God, which is why I am thankful for helpful Christians like you all!
I don't believe there will be many that are willing to say where they go to church or what denomination they are affiliated with. I have asked this before with no response. I believe all churches and denominations have their own flaws and deviations from certain biblical principles and doctrines.
The Catholic denomination is the largest in the world so it gets the most bad press, that's just the way it is. Most of those that bash Catholics have little or no understanding about this denomination, it's just easier for them to go with the flow as they feel safer in large crowds that agree with everything they say.
OK, there is no such thing as a Catholic Christian. Is there any such thing as a Baptist Christian? Or a Methodist Christian? Or any other faith? Based on the hateful mean spirited rhetoric that some members use I would have to say that by their own logic or reasoning there is not and therefore we are all going to hell.
There are serious flaws in the Catholic religion but the thing is that during each and every mass they acknowledge the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as being God, and that by Jesus dying for their confessed sins that they are now forgiven. This statement of faith is called the Apostles Creed. I have attended many other churches and denominations that are bible based but that they do not say something similar during each service. Perhaps they're not really Christians either.
The Catholic denomination is the largest in the world so it gets the most bad press, that's just the way it is. Most of those that bash Catholics have little or no understanding about this denomination, it's just easier for them to go with the flow as they feel safer in large crowds that agree with everything they say.
OK, there is no such thing as a Catholic Christian. Is there any such thing as a Baptist Christian? Or a Methodist Christian? Or any other faith? Based on the hateful mean spirited rhetoric that some members use I would have to say that by their own logic or reasoning there is not and therefore we are all going to hell.
There are serious flaws in the Catholic religion but the thing is that during each and every mass they acknowledge the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as being God, and that by Jesus dying for their confessed sins that they are now forgiven. This statement of faith is called the Apostles Creed. I have attended many other churches and denominations that are bible based but that they do not say something similar during each service. Perhaps they're not really Christians either.
D
I've been thinking of how to respond, off-and-on again since yesterday, so, instead of going point-by-point on what you think Reformers believe and then address your main question, I think I can get it all in one shot.
First, you're going to want to know some stuff about me... well, if for no other reason then I've noticed people immediately went for the jugular every which way they could.
I was born and raised Irish Catholic. (I think the Irish part raises the levels in the Catholic part. lol) To the point I am my younger brother's godmother. (I think only a Catholic thoroughly gets that point.) And, when I was 16 and my younger brother was ten, those promises made hit.
Mom was dying of cancer. Also, two weeks before I turned 16, I was born again. BUT Mom got me to promise to keep those promises made way back when. (Mom wanted to be Catholic as far back as she could remember, so when she was of legal age and convert, she was more devout than your average Catholic even. She actually converted to both the Irish and the Catholic. lol) And I tried to keep those promises as long as I was able. So I really was a born-again Irish Catholic. (I lasted 4 years before I had to get out. I failed in that I raised my brother to be Catholic. I still feel bad about that, because I felt hog-tied to teach him anything about God other than Catholic teachings, but He's in his 50s now, so his beliefs are on him now, not me.)
Just wanted to give you insight into who I am, so you can measure my words.
So, on to your statements and questions.
This is what Reformers believe.
Good was defined by God by his very nature. He placed in us the capacity of that goodness. And he defined what that goodness was clearly, twice.
1. In the OT with the Law. The Law is there to show us what goodness -- what God -- looks like. And we know God placed that in us because Cain didn't get off for ignorance when he went with the "Am I my brother's keeper" defense. He jolly-well DID know what he did was the opposite of good.
2. And, Jesus defined it in NT style in Mark 12:30-31.
[FONT="]And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[/FONT][FONT="] The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”[/FONT]
So we know when we're loving God and others first, and when we're loving ourselves first. Anything outside The Law/Mark 12:30-31 is bad. Aka Sin!
And there is one fixed sentence for sin. Any sin. Separation from God. Death. Hell. We know this. We have always known this, but as Romans 1 says, we suppress the truth.
That's what Adam's inheritance gave us.
Now, let's bring this to more modern terms. Would any justice system grant amnesty to a serial killer for saying, "I didn't know what I was doing was wrong"? Of course not! The killer is supposed to be sentenced and put on death row. Well, okay then. Our justice systems have fallen very short of the mark themselves, but this is what should happen, right? And with full knowledge the murderer has no reason to appeal the sentence because the acts were too obvious to bother appealing.
The truth is we are all that murderer. Maybe not so much actually murder, but each one of us has done bad/sinned, intentionally or unintentionally, but no matter what, we did it against God and for us. So every single one of us deserves the sentence -- separation from God, death, and hell.
Adam's sin had the consequence of all of us earning death now. (We all know how to sin now, and have brought it to a science and an art form.) And it had the consequence of separating us from God. (God cannot be around sin, so he separates sinners from him.) Between the two, that also gives us the consequence of hell, but we earned that sentence, just as much as Adam did. And it would be righteous if God gave us just what we deserve.
He is righteous. So he cannot change his mind, or he'd be unrighteous. But he is also merciful. And in his mercy he handed down the Scapegoat clause!
Scapegoat clause: If any person who did not do that bad thing/sin/crime would like to offer himself up on behalf of the criminal, his sacrifice is acceptable to God.
Now, we can go with I never murdered anyone, so I could take on the sentence for a murderer, but I really can't, because Jesus told how deep sin goes. It's not just action, it's thinking out the action. I've wanted to kill people, so I can't even take that punishment, if I was so gallant. (And, I'm not!
) It has to be someone who never committed that sin.
Only one fit the bill, and only one took on that punishment. Jesus. And the Father gave him the full punishment -- separation from him, death, and hell.
So, we really do deserve that just punishment. We sinned, on purpose. It was choice, and we chose the darkness. We chose it again and again. The verdict is just, even to those of us who realize what we've done. It's equally just for those who don't know what they've done because the only reason they don't know is they suppress the truth.
God chose to save some off of Death Row. Everyone on Death Row deserves to be there.
So, question for you. Do you really want to deny Jesus' offer because he didn't save all?
And that's what Reformed believes. (I cannot speak for non-Reformed.)
So, after that, did I leave any of your questions unanswered?
First, you're going to want to know some stuff about me... well, if for no other reason then I've noticed people immediately went for the jugular every which way they could.
I was born and raised Irish Catholic. (I think the Irish part raises the levels in the Catholic part. lol) To the point I am my younger brother's godmother. (I think only a Catholic thoroughly gets that point.) And, when I was 16 and my younger brother was ten, those promises made hit.
Mom was dying of cancer. Also, two weeks before I turned 16, I was born again. BUT Mom got me to promise to keep those promises made way back when. (Mom wanted to be Catholic as far back as she could remember, so when she was of legal age and convert, she was more devout than your average Catholic even. She actually converted to both the Irish and the Catholic. lol) And I tried to keep those promises as long as I was able. So I really was a born-again Irish Catholic. (I lasted 4 years before I had to get out. I failed in that I raised my brother to be Catholic. I still feel bad about that, because I felt hog-tied to teach him anything about God other than Catholic teachings, but He's in his 50s now, so his beliefs are on him now, not me.)
Just wanted to give you insight into who I am, so you can measure my words.
So, on to your statements and questions.
This is what Reformers believe.
Good was defined by God by his very nature. He placed in us the capacity of that goodness. And he defined what that goodness was clearly, twice.
1. In the OT with the Law. The Law is there to show us what goodness -- what God -- looks like. And we know God placed that in us because Cain didn't get off for ignorance when he went with the "Am I my brother's keeper" defense. He jolly-well DID know what he did was the opposite of good.
2. And, Jesus defined it in NT style in Mark 12:30-31.
[FONT="]And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[/FONT][FONT="] The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”[/FONT]
So we know when we're loving God and others first, and when we're loving ourselves first. Anything outside The Law/Mark 12:30-31 is bad. Aka Sin!
And there is one fixed sentence for sin. Any sin. Separation from God. Death. Hell. We know this. We have always known this, but as Romans 1 says, we suppress the truth.
That's what Adam's inheritance gave us.
Now, let's bring this to more modern terms. Would any justice system grant amnesty to a serial killer for saying, "I didn't know what I was doing was wrong"? Of course not! The killer is supposed to be sentenced and put on death row. Well, okay then. Our justice systems have fallen very short of the mark themselves, but this is what should happen, right? And with full knowledge the murderer has no reason to appeal the sentence because the acts were too obvious to bother appealing.
The truth is we are all that murderer. Maybe not so much actually murder, but each one of us has done bad/sinned, intentionally or unintentionally, but no matter what, we did it against God and for us. So every single one of us deserves the sentence -- separation from God, death, and hell.
Adam's sin had the consequence of all of us earning death now. (We all know how to sin now, and have brought it to a science and an art form.) And it had the consequence of separating us from God. (God cannot be around sin, so he separates sinners from him.) Between the two, that also gives us the consequence of hell, but we earned that sentence, just as much as Adam did. And it would be righteous if God gave us just what we deserve.
He is righteous. So he cannot change his mind, or he'd be unrighteous. But he is also merciful. And in his mercy he handed down the Scapegoat clause!
Scapegoat clause: If any person who did not do that bad thing/sin/crime would like to offer himself up on behalf of the criminal, his sacrifice is acceptable to God.
Now, we can go with I never murdered anyone, so I could take on the sentence for a murderer, but I really can't, because Jesus told how deep sin goes. It's not just action, it's thinking out the action. I've wanted to kill people, so I can't even take that punishment, if I was so gallant. (And, I'm not!
) It has to be someone who never committed that sin.Only one fit the bill, and only one took on that punishment. Jesus. And the Father gave him the full punishment -- separation from him, death, and hell.
So, we really do deserve that just punishment. We sinned, on purpose. It was choice, and we chose the darkness. We chose it again and again. The verdict is just, even to those of us who realize what we've done. It's equally just for those who don't know what they've done because the only reason they don't know is they suppress the truth.
God chose to save some off of Death Row. Everyone on Death Row deserves to be there.
So, question for you. Do you really want to deny Jesus' offer because he didn't save all?
And that's what Reformed believes. (I cannot speak for non-Reformed.)
So, after that, did I leave any of your questions unanswered?