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You're one of the good guys Willie. My wife and I would like to attend your church one day but first I have to get off this weekend work schedule. You always take a well-balanced approach in your posts and I certainly appreciate it. I think that I just get tired of the constant bickering on who is going to heaven and who is going to hell.
I knew there were serious problems at an early age with the Catholic church as a lot of the doctrine and practices are contrary to what is stated in the bible. It does say in the bible to not forsake the assembling together in worship and praise but there are times and circumstances that sometimes hinder someone from finding a new church home.
I was attending the SDA services with my wife but due to work I haven't been able to do that either. We do pray together and read the bible each and everyday but I need to get back into the church. There are flaws with SDA also but basically they are a bible believing church and that goes a long ways with me.
From what you have written about Vineyard it seems like a really good group of people that are trying to do their best with what God provides to take care of the least of their brothers and sisters in their humble service to the Lord. Really, that's what its all about. I've been lacking in that area as well as other areas of my life. I pray that changes for me but only time will tell.
I knew there were serious problems at an early age with the Catholic church as a lot of the doctrine and practices are contrary to what is stated in the bible. It does say in the bible to not forsake the assembling together in worship and praise but there are times and circumstances that sometimes hinder someone from finding a new church home.
I was attending the SDA services with my wife but due to work I haven't been able to do that either. We do pray together and read the bible each and everyday but I need to get back into the church. There are flaws with SDA also but basically they are a bible believing church and that goes a long ways with me.
From what you have written about Vineyard it seems like a really good group of people that are trying to do their best with what God provides to take care of the least of their brothers and sisters in their humble service to the Lord. Really, that's what its all about. I've been lacking in that area as well as other areas of my life. I pray that changes for me but only time will tell.
W
What my husband and I have done is study the KJV (but you could always use multiple translations). Then when we needed questions answered we would ask on a forum we attended, of which is no longer running anymore. We would take the answers and check them with scripture in context. All the while praying for understanding. We did not and currently do not attend a physical church, nor do we see ourselves as any denomination. You may also want to get a strongs concordance that will explain the different usages of some words that were translated from the original text. You could attend a church, which one I could not say. But do not blindly believe everything that is taught. Read, study for yourself, and pray for understanding.
Scripture warns us of those who hold to a law of the fathers as a commandment of men that says we need men to teach us. refering to that as antichrists...(many)
Fullness of revelation is a term Catholic uses for a certain advantage in their theology. Scripture alone is not the true fullness to a Catholic and is why they must think of men ( apostolic succession) above that which is written (the scriptures). Its really the same problem the Jews had that was reformed during the first century reformation. a carbon copy of the fifteenth century reformation
We are not to add the "private revelations" as interpretations of men as a law of the fathers... to God’s interpretation the Bible …. The word of God is limited to "all that is written in the law and the prophets.(sola scriptura)" We do not receive the revelations of God after the church but rather after our teacher guide and comforter... the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit of God.
Christ called those kind of fathers a brood of vipers . The traditons of those fathers do not come for the same source as scripture. Private revelation simply provide a way to draw men after the felsh of other man as if the church was visible and we did walk by sight. Christ said of his own flesh it profits for nothing
Pope Urban VIII on Private Revelation
His Holiness, Pope Urban VIII stated: "In cases which concern private revelations, it is better to believe than not to believe, for, if you believe, and it is proven true, you will be happy that you have believed, because our Holy Mother asked it. If you believe, and it should be proven false, you will receive all blessings "as if" it had been true, because you believed it to be true."(Pope Urban VIII, 1623-44)hey are in the place of God
[HR][/HR]
Because of men trying claim the things of God are equal to the things of men we can see that sola scriptural (all things written in the law and the prophets) till this day it is the dividing line between Protestantism and Catholicism .What we had in part untill the last word that was inspired to John, Today we have the whole or the perfect. Adding the traditions of the fathers in order to take away what is called the same spirit of faith acoeding as it is written simply make the scriptures as a whole to no effect. There must be a distinction between the things of men and those of God making them all one in the same men come up with laws of men as coomandment of en called fathers that must believe
You have just described the methodology of those who reject the full revelation of God called "sola scriptura" or "all things is written in the law and the prophets" . Clearly those who teach others that we do need a man to teach us subject themselves to another authority other than that which is written .
Once you can understand we are not to seek the approval of man seen as a source of Christian faith the Marian doctrines show themselves for what they are ,the private interpretations as private revelations of sinfull men .
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D
Why not start with the questions he did ask, instead of the stuff everyone wants to tell him anyway?
Personally, if I come to a new site, ask a question or two and immediately get hammered on why I'm an idiot, am totally wrong, and my grandmother wears combat boots all before I even get my question answered, I'm not likely to bother listening to those out to prove me wrong on everything but the questions I DID ask.
That he has answered some, despite the pounce, merely says he's more patience than I am. So, how about rewarding his patience by actually answering his first questions?
Personally, if I come to a new site, ask a question or two and immediately get hammered on why I'm an idiot, am totally wrong, and my grandmother wears combat boots all before I even get my question answered, I'm not likely to bother listening to those out to prove me wrong on everything but the questions I DID ask.
That he has answered some, despite the pounce, merely says he's more patience than I am. So, how about rewarding his patience by actually answering his first questions?
W
Why the specific hate on these groups though?
Have a look at the CC threads- You will find plenty of non catholics who say Jesus is not God. People who are neither muslims, jews or catholics. You don't see threads saying "Protestabts who think Jesus is a man are evil heretics debunking the bible" the same way you see them about Catholics and Jews
Have a look at the CC threads- You will find plenty of non catholics who say Jesus is not God. People who are neither muslims, jews or catholics. You don't see threads saying "Protestabts who think Jesus is a man are evil heretics debunking the bible" the same way you see them about Catholics and Jews
Well maybe these specific groups are addressed more often because the adherents number in the billions. That may have something to do with it, and maybe it's because these groups are more likely to have people spreading what they believe more often, lets not forget who started this thread. Not that I condone ANY of the comments that are just completely confrontational for the sake of "being right". I personally think it works much better when there is an actual disscussion and you try to understand the person with questions and ask them what it is exactly that they believe first, you know try to get to know them, then share your views and beliefs.
Honestly I don't know how you miss "Why the specific hate on these groups though?", to be honest. At least as far as Islam goes it is the biggest threat in and to this world bar none in my opinion. I do agree spitting hate or bullets will not fix the problem, but sharing the truth is not hate. That said I can agree with you as far as there being a better way to do that, one that doesn't include verbal attacks, being offensive, or going strait for the jugular. We are called to do this sharing in love and honestly I don't see it being effective at all any other way, but I wouldn't boggle myself wondering why the two biggest false religious systems in the world are the biggest targets of opposition for the Christian to address.
When confronted by any of the smaller groups you mentioned the same thing will happen.
Honestly I don't know how you miss "Why the specific hate on these groups though?", to be honest. At least as far as Islam goes it is the biggest threat in and to this world bar none in my opinion. I do agree spitting hate or bullets will not fix the problem, but sharing the truth is not hate. That said I can agree with you as far as there being a better way to do that, one that doesn't include verbal attacks, being offensive, or going strait for the jugular. We are called to do this sharing in love and honestly I don't see it being effective at all any other way, but I wouldn't boggle myself wondering why the two biggest false religious systems in the world are the biggest targets of opposition for the Christian to address.
When confronted by any of the smaller groups you mentioned the same thing will happen.
I don't believe you. I believe you are lying. You may have misrepresented yourself from the get go.
You believe you are right. How is that any different? Study up on denominations and you will find there are not as many of them as often erroneously supposed. That is, if you are seriously interested in the truth. Your attitude does not exactly exude that level of sincerity.
If you read the Bible you would know that the Spirit of Truth leads us into understanding. These statements of yours are nothing more than your your less than sincere attitude. You present yourself now as a mocker and a scoffer, not someone coming in peace seeking answers.
You could do with some history lessons. The Apocrypha may have been included in some Bibles but it was not considered inspired, nor canonized until the council of Trent in the sixteenth century. It was canonized by the institution of the RCC because pet heresies were thereby upheld.
Is that really all you could come up with? The Jews knew their Scriptures inside and out, including Jesus, and we are told to search them for ourselves to ascertain the truth. You want to place your faith in the fallible teachings of men and call them infallible when Jesus specifically told us not to do that. Why don't you just read the Bible for yourself instead of having popes telling you what to believe, and pray to God about it? Oh dear I suppose now you will cry about which Bible you are to read. Join a Bible study where various translations are all being read at the same time so you can easily compare and discuss the differences with others.
You perhaps could use some history lessons. Lucky for you there is good information available from a number of sources. Study up on denominations, also. One denomination may believe the same as another but is counted separately being in a different country. Heh, you talk as if Roman Catholics all believe the same things. Your attitude is not really conducive to coming in peace and it seems you are having a little temper tantrum to learn what Protestants really believe.
Jesus promised to show Himself to those who diligently sought truth. He desires a personal relationship with His children. Why do you mock this? You really ought not to do that. You show no respect to God in so doing.
You believe you are right. How is that any different? Study up on denominations and you will find there are not as many of them as often erroneously supposed. That is, if you are seriously interested in the truth. Your attitude does not exactly exude that level of sincerity.
If you read the Bible you would know that the Spirit of Truth leads us into understanding. These statements of yours are nothing more than your your less than sincere attitude. You present yourself now as a mocker and a scoffer, not someone coming in peace seeking answers.
You could do with some history lessons. The Apocrypha may have been included in some Bibles but it was not considered inspired, nor canonized until the council of Trent in the sixteenth century. It was canonized by the institution of the RCC because pet heresies were thereby upheld.
Is that really all you could come up with? The Jews knew their Scriptures inside and out, including Jesus, and we are told to search them for ourselves to ascertain the truth. You want to place your faith in the fallible teachings of men and call them infallible when Jesus specifically told us not to do that. Why don't you just read the Bible for yourself instead of having popes telling you what to believe, and pray to God about it? Oh dear I suppose now you will cry about which Bible you are to read. Join a Bible study where various translations are all being read at the same time so you can easily compare and discuss the differences with others.
You perhaps could use some history lessons. Lucky for you there is good information available from a number of sources. Study up on denominations, also. One denomination may believe the same as another but is counted separately being in a different country. Heh, you talk as if Roman Catholics all believe the same things. Your attitude is not really conducive to coming in peace and it seems you are having a little temper tantrum to learn what Protestants really believe.
Jesus promised to show Himself to those who diligently sought truth. He desires a personal relationship with His children. Why do you mock this? You really ought not to do that. You show no respect to God in so doing.
J
i think people put to much faith in one council saying this group of books are scripture, that group of books are not. you have to be pretty blind to not acknowledge many books weere thrown out because people didnt like what they said.
i also believe people put to much faith in theology and very little faith into their actions.
i also believe people put to much faith in theology and very little faith into their actions.
W
I've been thinking of how to respond, off-and-on again since yesterday, so, instead of going point-by-point on what you think Reformers believe and then address your main question, I think I can get it all in one shot.
First, you're going to want to know some stuff about me... well, if for no other reason then I've noticed people immediately went for the jugular every which way they could.
I was born and raised Irish Catholic. (I think the Irish part raises the levels in the Catholic part. lol) To the point I am my younger brother's godmother. (I think only a Catholic thoroughly gets that point.) And, when I was 16 and my younger brother was ten, those promises made hit.
Mom was dying of cancer. Also, two weeks before I turned 16, I was born again. BUT Mom got me to promise to keep those promises made way back when. (Mom wanted to be Catholic as far back as she could remember, so when she was of legal age and convert, she was more devout than your average Catholic even. She actually converted to both the Irish and the Catholic. lol) And I tried to keep those promises as long as I was able. So I really was a born-again Irish Catholic. (I lasted 4 years before I had to get out. I failed in that I raised my brother to be Catholic. I still feel bad about that, because I felt hog-tied to teach him anything about God other than Catholic teachings, but He's in his 50s now, so his beliefs are on him now, not me.)
Just wanted to give you insight into who I am, so you can measure my words.
So, on to your statements and questions.
This is what Reformers believe.
Good was defined by God by his very nature. He placed in us the capacity of that goodness. And he defined what that goodness was clearly, twice.
1. In the OT with the Law. The Law is there to show us what goodness -- what God -- looks like. And we know God placed that in us because Cain didn't get off for ignorance when he went with the "Am I my brother's keeper" defense. He jolly-well DID know what he did was the opposite of good.
2. And, Jesus defined it in NT style in Mark 12:30-31.
And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
So we know when we're loving God and others first, and when we're loving ourselves first. Anything outside The Law/Mark 12:30-31 is bad. Aka Sin!
And there is one fixed sentence for sin. Any sin. Separation from God. Death. Hell. We know this. We have always known this, but as Romans 1 says, we suppress the truth.
That's what Adam's inheritance gave us.
Now, let's bring this to more modern terms. Would any justice system grant amnesty to a serial killer for saying, "I didn't know what I was doing was wrong"? Of course not! The killer is supposed to be sentenced and put on death row. Well, okay then. Our justice systems have fallen very short of the mark themselves, but this is what should happen, right? And with full knowledge the murderer has no reason to appeal the sentence because the acts were too obvious to bother appealing.
The truth is we are all that murderer. Maybe not so much actually murder, but each one of us has done bad/sinned, intentionally or unintentionally, but no matter what, we did it against God and for us. So every single one of us deserves the sentence -- separation from God, death, and hell.
Adam's sin had the consequence of all of us earning death now. (We all know how to sin now, and have brought it to a science and an art form.) And it had the consequence of separating us from God. (God cannot be around sin, so he separates sinners from him.) Between the two, that also gives us the consequence of hell, but we earned that sentence, just as much as Adam did. And it would be righteous if God gave us just what we deserve.
He is righteous. So he cannot change his mind, or he'd be unrighteous. But he is also merciful. And in his mercy he handed down the Scapegoat clause!
Scapegoat clause: If any person who did not do that bad thing/sin/crime would like to offer himself up on behalf of the criminal, his sacrifice is acceptable to God.
Now, we can go with I never murdered anyone, so I could take on the sentence for a murderer, but I really can't, because Jesus told how deep sin goes. It's not just action, it's thinking out the action. I've wanted to kill people, so I can't even take that punishment, if I was so gallant. (And, I'm not!
) It has to be someone who never committed that sin.
Only one fit the bill, and only one took on that punishment. Jesus. And the Father gave him the full punishment -- separation from him, death, and hell.
So, we really do deserve that just punishment. We sinned, on purpose. It was choice, and we chose the darkness. We chose it again and again. The verdict is just, even to those of us who realize what we've done. It's equally just for those who don't know what they've done because the only reason they don't know is they suppress the truth.
God chose to save some off of Death Row. Everyone on Death Row deserves to be there.
So, question for you. Do you really want to deny Jesus' offer because he didn't save all?
And that's what Reformed believes. (I cannot speak for non-Reformed.)
So, after that, did I leave any of your questions unanswered?
First, you're going to want to know some stuff about me... well, if for no other reason then I've noticed people immediately went for the jugular every which way they could.
I was born and raised Irish Catholic. (I think the Irish part raises the levels in the Catholic part. lol) To the point I am my younger brother's godmother. (I think only a Catholic thoroughly gets that point.) And, when I was 16 and my younger brother was ten, those promises made hit.
Mom was dying of cancer. Also, two weeks before I turned 16, I was born again. BUT Mom got me to promise to keep those promises made way back when. (Mom wanted to be Catholic as far back as she could remember, so when she was of legal age and convert, she was more devout than your average Catholic even. She actually converted to both the Irish and the Catholic. lol) And I tried to keep those promises as long as I was able. So I really was a born-again Irish Catholic. (I lasted 4 years before I had to get out. I failed in that I raised my brother to be Catholic. I still feel bad about that, because I felt hog-tied to teach him anything about God other than Catholic teachings, but He's in his 50s now, so his beliefs are on him now, not me.)
Just wanted to give you insight into who I am, so you can measure my words.
So, on to your statements and questions.
This is what Reformers believe.
Good was defined by God by his very nature. He placed in us the capacity of that goodness. And he defined what that goodness was clearly, twice.
1. In the OT with the Law. The Law is there to show us what goodness -- what God -- looks like. And we know God placed that in us because Cain didn't get off for ignorance when he went with the "Am I my brother's keeper" defense. He jolly-well DID know what he did was the opposite of good.
2. And, Jesus defined it in NT style in Mark 12:30-31.
And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
So we know when we're loving God and others first, and when we're loving ourselves first. Anything outside The Law/Mark 12:30-31 is bad. Aka Sin!
And there is one fixed sentence for sin. Any sin. Separation from God. Death. Hell. We know this. We have always known this, but as Romans 1 says, we suppress the truth.
That's what Adam's inheritance gave us.
Now, let's bring this to more modern terms. Would any justice system grant amnesty to a serial killer for saying, "I didn't know what I was doing was wrong"? Of course not! The killer is supposed to be sentenced and put on death row. Well, okay then. Our justice systems have fallen very short of the mark themselves, but this is what should happen, right? And with full knowledge the murderer has no reason to appeal the sentence because the acts were too obvious to bother appealing.
The truth is we are all that murderer. Maybe not so much actually murder, but each one of us has done bad/sinned, intentionally or unintentionally, but no matter what, we did it against God and for us. So every single one of us deserves the sentence -- separation from God, death, and hell.
Adam's sin had the consequence of all of us earning death now. (We all know how to sin now, and have brought it to a science and an art form.) And it had the consequence of separating us from God. (God cannot be around sin, so he separates sinners from him.) Between the two, that also gives us the consequence of hell, but we earned that sentence, just as much as Adam did. And it would be righteous if God gave us just what we deserve.
He is righteous. So he cannot change his mind, or he'd be unrighteous. But he is also merciful. And in his mercy he handed down the Scapegoat clause!
Scapegoat clause: If any person who did not do that bad thing/sin/crime would like to offer himself up on behalf of the criminal, his sacrifice is acceptable to God.
Now, we can go with I never murdered anyone, so I could take on the sentence for a murderer, but I really can't, because Jesus told how deep sin goes. It's not just action, it's thinking out the action. I've wanted to kill people, so I can't even take that punishment, if I was so gallant. (And, I'm not!
) It has to be someone who never committed that sin.Only one fit the bill, and only one took on that punishment. Jesus. And the Father gave him the full punishment -- separation from him, death, and hell.
So, we really do deserve that just punishment. We sinned, on purpose. It was choice, and we chose the darkness. We chose it again and again. The verdict is just, even to those of us who realize what we've done. It's equally just for those who don't know what they've done because the only reason they don't know is they suppress the truth.
God chose to save some off of Death Row. Everyone on Death Row deserves to be there.
So, question for you. Do you really want to deny Jesus' offer because he didn't save all?
And that's what Reformed believes. (I cannot speak for non-Reformed.)
So, after that, did I leave any of your questions unanswered?
Hi Depleated, thank you for taking so much time to write this response, and above all, thanks for taking time to think about it first! Haha.
I think you have helped me understand a bit more the angle that the Reformed see things from, which more or less is what I was seeking in my original post. I do have a couple of follow up questions about the role or lack thereof of human freedom in this system as well as a few thoughts on Calvin's double predestination, but I will hold those off for now due to lack of time and also the need to make a follow up post to the ever charitable and insightful Magenta.
Thank you!
D
If you'd like a lesson in God's way over/despite human freedom, I have a cute little book for you to read. The Book of Jonah. Jonah had all the freedom he wanted, including suicide-by-sailors. And yet, he freely chose to do God's bidding eventually. And then he freely chose to pout about it. You can even pick out those moments when God clearly said, "Enough of that" without saying a word. Does it get any freer than that? lol
W
Magenta thanks for your great patience towards my ignorance, it is not easy being so unintelligent. I am fortunate however to have someone as educated as yourself to help me with this. Do to my great difficulties in learning I wonder if you could help me arrive at the truth one step at a time. I won't be able to handle any more than one topic at once so please do not rush into other topics.
For starters then please just tell me where the Bible came from? And just to clarify on that question, I mean, who was it that decided these particular books are inspired and the many other books of the time were not? I feel that if, as you insist, the Bible must be our sole ground of authority, then I must know where it comes from.
I hope you are willing to assist this poor ignorant sinner. Thank you for your great demonstration of Christian virtues towards me.
W
Magenta I apologize, my last post was not sincere, you are correct. It was totally sarcastic in response to what I perceive as many of the absurd comments that have been given to me in response to my post
if I somehow upset you I am sorry. If I said something that angered you please let me know what it was, and I do apologize. But frankly I don't understand why it is that you are being so hostile towards me. Nor do I understand why you have taken it upon yourself to assume that I know nothing of history or the Scriptures, and most of all why it is that you believe that I don't read the Bible or love the Lord. I freely admit that I desire to grow much more in my knowledge and love of the Lord and His Word, but why you assume that I have neither of the two I find disturbing.
That being said, if you actually care to talk with me, and help me, as you see it, to grow further in the truth, that would be great. We can go nice and slow, topic by topic so that I might actually learn something. But as I have said to the general tenor of many of the posts so far, simply throwing out handfuls of unfounded complaints against my faith and telling me how aweful and devious we are is not going to help me or anyone.
I am sorry, I shouldn't have retaliated. If you want to help one another seek the truth further in charity as brethren in the Lord, let me know
if I somehow upset you I am sorry. If I said something that angered you please let me know what it was, and I do apologize. But frankly I don't understand why it is that you are being so hostile towards me. Nor do I understand why you have taken it upon yourself to assume that I know nothing of history or the Scriptures, and most of all why it is that you believe that I don't read the Bible or love the Lord. I freely admit that I desire to grow much more in my knowledge and love of the Lord and His Word, but why you assume that I have neither of the two I find disturbing.
That being said, if you actually care to talk with me, and help me, as you see it, to grow further in the truth, that would be great. We can go nice and slow, topic by topic so that I might actually learn something. But as I have said to the general tenor of many of the posts so far, simply throwing out handfuls of unfounded complaints against my faith and telling me how aweful and devious we are is not going to help me or anyone.
I am sorry, I shouldn't have retaliated. If you want to help one another seek the truth further in charity as brethren in the Lord, let me know
Well the bible came from the followers of Christ that wrote them down as inspired by the Holy Spirit. We got them from Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, James, and Jude. I know the RCC teaches the bible came from them but these books were around long before the RCC existed. There were criteria for which books were considered "cannon" and those are, was the author an apostle or did he have the endorsement of an apostle (was it written by someone that knew Jesus and was there, or someone the [FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif]apostles[/FONT][FONT=arial, helvetica, sans serif] endorsed), [/FONT]Universal acceptance (were they used across the known world), Truthfulness (did the facts in it match reality), Faithfulness to previously accepted canonical writings (did they all agree with each other). That was how they chose what books made it into the bible at the council of Carthage. Yes this was a council of the catholic (universal) church, but not the RCC as it is today, and also not a feat the RCC can claim as "theirs" even though they do.
I would also like to point out the "Christian virtues" you displayed in the comment Magenta was responding to were off the chart wholesome as well. If we just drop the sarcasm then these exchanges would go so much better.
I would also like to point out the "Christian virtues" you displayed in the comment Magenta was responding to were off the chart wholesome as well. If we just drop the sarcasm then these exchanges would go so much better.
W
Heh, yeah, it is a great story. Ok well nevermind then, it appears you already believe that human freedom has a role in the process, that is what I was going to ask. From what I can tell Luther did not believe that (i.e. The bondage of the will), and I am having a hard time determining if Calvin did either, he seems to make statements that could go in either direction.
Anyways, more to the point of the example you gave, the question I supposed I would have is this. While the juridical example you gave is definitely logical in its own right, do you think that it is the correct lens through which to interpret the Gospel? I know Calvin was a lawyer so a lot of his work has a bit of that bent to it. My question is, it seems like the logic of "justice" in the New Testament is a bit different. While you have the pedagogical progressions in the Old Testament, slowly moving towards an eye for an eye justice, it seems Jesus hopes to push it further in the NT, thus we have things such as "if someone wants to take your tunic, give them your cloak as well" (MT 5:41), "love your enemies, pray for your persecutors" (MT 5:44), "return a curse with a blessing" (1 Pet 3:9) etc.
Now I know you are obviuosly in favor of all of these passages, I guess I am just wondering, certainly we believe that if God commands this much from us it is because this too is how He Is correct? ("Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect").
All I am getting at is that while its true we can't claim salvation as a right nor pretend to merit it on our own, certainly while an eye for an eye justice might not demand that God offer salvation to all, love would demand such a thing since love desires the good of the other.
I guess I just don't understand how God could not at least extend the possibility of salvation to all.
Maybe you aren't denying any of this, so please just correct me if I am wrong. But maybe you could help me with this. Thanks for all your kind replies.
Anyways, more to the point of the example you gave, the question I supposed I would have is this. While the juridical example you gave is definitely logical in its own right, do you think that it is the correct lens through which to interpret the Gospel? I know Calvin was a lawyer so a lot of his work has a bit of that bent to it. My question is, it seems like the logic of "justice" in the New Testament is a bit different. While you have the pedagogical progressions in the Old Testament, slowly moving towards an eye for an eye justice, it seems Jesus hopes to push it further in the NT, thus we have things such as "if someone wants to take your tunic, give them your cloak as well" (MT 5:41), "love your enemies, pray for your persecutors" (MT 5:44), "return a curse with a blessing" (1 Pet 3:9) etc.
Now I know you are obviuosly in favor of all of these passages, I guess I am just wondering, certainly we believe that if God commands this much from us it is because this too is how He Is correct? ("Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect").
All I am getting at is that while its true we can't claim salvation as a right nor pretend to merit it on our own, certainly while an eye for an eye justice might not demand that God offer salvation to all, love would demand such a thing since love desires the good of the other.
I guess I just don't understand how God could not at least extend the possibility of salvation to all.
Maybe you aren't denying any of this, so please just correct me if I am wrong. But maybe you could help me with this. Thanks for all your kind replies.
Please ignore the last sentence in my last comment as well. I posted that before I saw this comment. Very awesome of you to acknowledge this, apologize, and move forward. I wish there was more of this in the world. Good job.
I also would like to add I understand how and why you may have felt a little upset after some of the comments here yesterday, but even after that you still noticed it wasn't the best way to handle things and caught and corrected yourself. Again very cool.
I also would like to add I understand how and why you may have felt a little upset after some of the comments here yesterday, but even after that you still noticed it wasn't the best way to handle things and caught and corrected yourself. Again very cool.
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