This is the Dividing Line on BDF

[miknik5]

You have never read that He learned the obedience of faith from the things He suffered?
I can try to find it - be right back.

Hebrews 5:8

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Hi Ed,

The unbelieving Jews lived a life of sin. Moses was punished for one sin, striking the rock twice. Moses was not an unbelieving Jew. He loved God and obeyed Him. He did not live a life of sin, he lived a life of righteousness.

DesertRose,

Moses was a true picture of Christ, though imperfect because he allowed his human emotions (emotions other than love) to interfere with his obedience to GOD, which is why, in anger and frustration at the people's complaints , he allowed his flesh to get in the way

Moses lost the right to enter into the promised land and saw it from afar

But Joshua, who by battling was able to obtain and enter by force into that physical land in the present earthly moment, is not really the one who had obtained the TRUE PROMISE which Moses saw from afar

it isn't a physical rest in a physical Israel
It's a spiritual test in the TRUE ISRAEL of GOD who entered in for us

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No. I don't believe what I keep saying.
I just make believe so I could argue with you.

Listen, as long as some here keep saying they don't have to do any works TO KEEP saved,

I'll be here to say the opposite.

Doesn't mean I don't like you.

And as long as you keep saying works are required to save oneself, I will be here to say the opposite.

If we can keep it at that, we can just agree to disagree peacefully as friends,

But when you say things like the following........

that we say works are NOT a part of being part of the kingdom of God (sanctification) or the christian way of life. thus do NOT matter..

That we believe we can say a prayer, then live however we want we are saved no matter what (no faith, ie easy believism)

that we believe sin does not matter, or that we can sin all we want

Then you are twisting what we say, slandering us, Not understanding what we are trying to share with you, or whatever you wish to call it (bearing false witness is what the bible calls it) and we will continue to have issues. and these heated arguments will still continue.

 

[Desertsrose]

We're called to obey.........that's what we are.....we're called to obey Jesus Christ.

Why does everyone get all riled up about obedience? or works?

In all the reading I've done in the threads about Faith and Works, no one has every said that they're saved by works. They all have agreed that we're saved by God's grace through faith because of the voluntary death of Jesus who died and atoned for our sins. Everyone agrees that this is how we're saved.

So if you all agree that salvation is through Christ and you all say that works will follow those who believe, where is the disagreement?

1 Peter 1:1, 2

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

 

[miknik5]

DesertRose,

Moses was a true picture of Christ, though imperfect because he allowed his human emotions (emotions other than love) to interfere with his obedience to GOD, which is why, in anger and frustration at the people's complaints , he allowed his flesh to get in the way

Moses lost the right to enter into the promised land and saw it from afar

But Joshua, who by battling was able to obtain and enter by force into that physical land in the present earthly moment, is not really the one who had obtained the TRUE PROMISE which Moses saw from afar

it isn't a physical rest in a physical Israel
It's a spiritual test in the TRUE ISRAEL of GOD who entered in for us

The last line above should have said rest ..Not "test".

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What do you make of the verse that says Jesus learned the obedience of faith from the things He suffered?

11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

[h=3]Faith at the Dawn of History[/h][SUP]4 [/SUP]By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; [SUP][a][/SUP] for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. [SUP]6 [/SUP]But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

[h=3]Faithful Abraham[/h][SUP]8 [/SUP]By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. [SUP]9 [/SUP]By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; [SUP]10 [/SUP]for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child[SUP][b][/SUP] when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore.

[h=3]The Heavenly Hope[/h][SUP]13 [/SUP]These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them,[SUP][c][/SUP] embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. [SUP]15 [/SUP]And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. [SUP]16 [/SUP]But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

[h=3]The Faith of the Patriarchs[/h][SUP]17 [/SUP]By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, [SUP]18 [/SUP]of whom it was said, “In Isaac your seed shall be called,”[SUP][d][/SUP] [SUP]19 [/SUP]concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the departure of the children of Israel, and gave instructions concerning his bones.

[h=3]The Faith of Moses[/h][SUP]23 [/SUP]By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king’s command.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, [SUP]25 [/SUP]choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, [SUP]26 [/SUP]esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in[SUP][e][/SUP] Egypt; for he looked to the reward.

[SUP]27 [/SUP]By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured as seeing Him who is invisible. [SUP]28 [/SUP]By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, lest he who destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

[SUP]29 [/SUP]By faith they passed through the Red Sea as by dry land, whereas the Egyptians, attempting to do so, were drowned.

[h=3]By Faith They Overcame[/h][SUP]30 [/SUP]By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were encircled for seven days. [SUP]31 [/SUP]By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace.

[SUP]32 [/SUP]And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: [SUP]33 [/SUP]who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, [SUP]34 [/SUP]quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. [SUP]35 [/SUP]Women received their dead raised to life again.

Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. [SUP]37 [/SUP]They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted,[SUP][f][/SUP] were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— [SUP]38 [/SUP]of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.

[SUP]39 [/SUP]And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, [SUP]40 [/SUP]God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.



Faith does not sit still, It works, Yet it is not our works which give us the testimony, it is our faith..

Without faith, it is impossibe to please God.

The workers have it backwards, they focus on works, Where the author of hebrews focused on faith.

 

[Desertsrose]

DesertRose,

Moses was a true picture of Christ, though imperfect because he allowed his human emotions (emotions other than love) to interfere with his obedience to GOD, which is why, in anger and frustration at the people's complaints , he allowed his flesh to get in the way

Moses lost the right to enter into the promised land and saw it from afar

But Joshua, who by battling was able to obtain and enter by force into that physical land in the present earthly moment, is not really the one who had obtained the TRUE PROMISE which Moses saw from afar

it isn't a physical rest in a physical Israel
It's a spiritual test in the TRUE ISRAEL of GOD who entered in for us

Hi Miknik,

Thanks for your comments. I'd have to disagree though. The Jews entered into their promised land. But not the originals that came out of Egypt. Only Joshua and Caleb went into the promises land. God fought for them, He battled with them and told them to take the land and drive out their enemies.

There is a spiritual application today, but it doesn't take away from what God did for Israel as a nation and as a people. The types and shadows never negate the truths that God instituted among the Israelites.

What I get from all this is that the many walk in unbelief while the few are faithful and enter into God's rest. Even though Moses didn't get to go into the promised land, because of sin, it didn't mean that he isn't going to be in heaven with us. This is where parables or types and shadows can break down. We can't always take it where we want it to go.

Those who were faithful in the wilderness didn't all get to go in to the promised land. Aaron and Miriam didn't go into the promised land either, so I'm sure there were others who didn't go in that were of the faithful remnant.

 

[miknik5]

Hi Miknik,

Thanks for your comments. I'd have to disagree though. The Jews entered into their promised land. But not the originals that came out of Egypt. Only Joshua and Caleb went into the promises land. God fought for them, He battled with them and told them to take the land and drive out their enemies.

There is a spiritual application today, but it doesn't take away from what God did for Israel as a nation and as a people. They types and shadows never negate the truths that God instituted among the Israelites.

What I get from all this is that the many walk in unbelief while the few are faithful and enter into God's rest. Even though Moses didn't get to go into the promised land, because of sin, it didn't mean that he isn't going to be in heaven with us. This is where parables or types and shadows can break down. We can't always take it where we want it to go.

Those who were faithful in the wilderness didn't all get to go in to the promised land. Aaron and Miriam didn't go into the promised land either, so I'm sure there were others who didn't go in either that were of the faithful remnant.

That isn't the Israel which GOD pointed to from
the beginning

and that is what the Jews will be fighting for but it's not THE ISRAEL
which GOD pointed to from the beginning

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well, if you equate the Jews unbelief in the wilderness, expressed through their sin, as disqualifying them for eternal rest, then you must also disqualify Moses eternal rest.
He also was not permitted into the Promised land because of his sinful disobedience in following God's instructions.

of course we must remember, Moses had faith, proven by his many acts of faith. These other people had no faith, from the time Moses started, they complained, even after miracle after miracle. they complained,

Moses was a man of God, who was imperfect. The other people were supposed to be children of God, but never trusted God.

Moses had lapse of faith in areas of his life, and suffered because of it, But he never lost complete faith in his redeemer because his true faith in his redeemer, was pure.

 

[miknik5]

Aaron and Miriam
obtained THE PROMISE and they certainly did enter i

just not into the physical Israel which wasn't what GOD pointed to anyway

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

so you are suggesting the NEW heart that God gives us when we are born again, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, can become hardened to the point of unbelief?

It's something we are strongly cautioned about, seeing to it not happening to us.
The man says: Now WHO did God become displeased with? Wasn't it those He had saved? (His caution here is TO SAVED MEN). He wants them to get this - that even though He saved them when they had the trust (faith) to obey and walk under the wall of water, He nevertheless became displeased with them for their subsequent unbelief. They had the faith to walk out under that wall of water. That takes some FAITH man! But then their hearts became evil and unbelieving and untrusting about water and food. And so we see it was because of unbelief that He swore, they will never enter my rest. They didn't abide/remain in that trust. And we see that God never changes because we also must abide/remain in that trust. I know this goes against some of what we may have been taught in our modern protestant doctrine, which says faith is a one time deal and subsequent unbelief and mistrust doesn't endanger us but that goes against what I read. I read: so take care that your own heart doesn't become hardened and unbelieving as with Israel in the desert. And I read that their problem was that their obedience was not mixed with trust/faith. And I read: so examine whether you really ARE in the faith/trust.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It's a race of trust. The ONLY thing that can disqualify one in this race is to become hardened and untrusting/unbelieving.
That entails more than first meets the eye though, doesn't it?

A man or woman of true faiht will never lose faith in their redeemer, They may not trust God in areas of their life, like moses. But someone who leaves, as john said, were never of us, they never had faith to begin with.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi Ed,

The unbelieving Jews lived a life of sin. Moses was punished for one sin, striking the rock twice. Moses was not an unbelieving Jew. He loved God and obeyed Him. He did not live a life of sin, he lived a life of righteousness.

Amen, Moses had faith, where as they never did.

 

[miknik5]

The first Passover is a picture in a lower visible sign of HOD's WORK...HIS CALL...HIS taking out from
"Egypt"(the sons of "pharaoh") and bringing into "Israel" (the sons of GOD)


out of "Egypt" HE called..HIS SON

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We're called to obey.........that's what we are.....we're called to obey Jesus Christ.

Why does everyone get all riled up about obedience? or works?

In all the reading I've done in the threads about Faith and Works, no one has every said that they're saved by works. They all have agreed that we're saved by God's grace through faith because of the voluntary death of Jesus who died and atoned for our sins. Everyone agrees that this is how we're saved.

So if you all agree that salvation is through Christ and you all say that works will follow those who believe, where is the disagreement?

1 Peter 1:1, 2

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

No one is getting riled up about works, We are getting riled up about those who teach we must work to EARN salvation.

CONTEXT is a must. or we will keep saying things which are not true, and get so hardened we believe the lies we say are actually truth.

 

[Desertsrose]

11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.

[SUP]3 [/SUP]By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

Faith at the Dawn of History

[SUP]4 [/SUP]By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; [SUP][a][/SUP] for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. [SUP]6 [/SUP]But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Faithful Abraham

[SUP]8 [/SUP]By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. [SUP]9 [/SUP]By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; [SUP]10 [/SUP]for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child[SUP][b][/SUP] when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. [SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore.

The Heavenly Hope

[SUP]13 [/SUP]These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them,[SUP][c][/SUP] embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. [SUP]15 [/SUP]And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. [SUP]16 [/SUP]But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

The Faith of the Patriarchs

[SUP]17 [/SUP]By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, [SUP]18 [/SUP]of whom it was said, “In Isaac your seed shall be called,”[SUP][d][/SUP] [SUP]19 [/SUP]concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.

[SUP]20 [/SUP]By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the departure of the children of Israel, and gave instructions concerning his bones.

The Faith of Moses

[SUP]23 [/SUP]By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king’s command.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, [SUP]25 [/SUP]choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, [SUP]26 [/SUP]esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in[SUP][e][/SUP] Egypt; for he looked to the reward.

[SUP]27 [/SUP]By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured as seeing Him who is invisible. [SUP]28 [/SUP]By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, lest he who destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

[SUP]29 [/SUP]By faith they passed through the Red Sea as by dry land, whereas the Egyptians, attempting to do so, were drowned.

By Faith They Overcame

[SUP]30 [/SUP]By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were encircled for seven days. [SUP]31 [/SUP]By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace.

[SUP]32 [/SUP]And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: [SUP]33 [/SUP]who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, [SUP]34 [/SUP]quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. [SUP]35 [/SUP]Women received their dead raised to life again.

Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. [SUP]36 [/SUP]Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. [SUP]37 [/SUP]They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted,[SUP][f][/SUP] were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— [SUP]38 [/SUP]of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.

[SUP]39 [/SUP]And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, [SUP]40 [/SUP]God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.



Faith does not sit still, It works, Yet it is not our works which give us the testimony, it is our faith..

Without faith, it is impossibe to please God.

The workers have it backwards, they focus on works, Where the author of hebrews focused on faith.

Hi EG,

When I read the posts that speak of faith and works, I'm not seeing that they are talking about faith apart from works. They are saying because a person has faith, he will work. And you and others have said that too.

If a person focuses in on works, then that makes their theology wrong? Then those of you who focus on faith, that would also make you theology wrong too.

But if the one who focuses on faith and says a person can have faith without works they'd be wrong because James says a person with faith will also have works.

So far, I've see those focusing on works to say that we must be saved by grace through faith and works will follow. So if everyone is saying the same thing, is there really an argument?

 

[Desertsrose]

No one is getting riled up about works, We are getting riled up about those who teach we must work to EARN salvation.

CONTEXT is a must. or we will keep saying things which are not true, and get so hardened we believe the lies we say are actually truth.

Hi EG,

I can agree that someone should be riled up about someone claiming that we're saved by works or earn salvation through works. Can you post an example of someone who has said that?

 

[miknik5]

of course we must remember, Moses had faith, proven by his many acts of faith. These other people had no faith, from the time Moses started, they complained, even after miracle after miracle. they complained,

Moses was a man of God, who was imperfect. The other people were supposed to be children of God, but never trusted God.

Moses had lapse of faith in areas of his life, and suffered because of it, But he never lost complete faith in his redeemer because his true faith in his redeemer, was pure.

Moses didn't desert the people and he pled with GOD to let HIS PRESENCE go with them


even when GOD said HE wasn't going to

and GOD listened to Moses and went before the people
(even though everyone wasn't perfect and obedient)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi EG,

I can agree that someone should be riled up about someone claiming that we're saved by works or earn salvation through works. Can you post an example of someone who has said that?

No. I don't believe what I keep saying.
I just make believe so I could argue with you.

Listen, as long as some here keep saying they don't have to do any works TO KEEP saved,

I'll be here to say the opposite.

Doesn't mean I don't like you.

Saying one has to work to KEEP saved, and saying one has to work to earn salvation are the same thing.

there is one, I am sure if I look, I can find many more..

 

[miknik5]

There's another thing we should remember about Moses

He prayed for Miriam (as a priest before GOD should do)
and in this he turned God's anger away and Miriam was eventually healed and restored to the camp

GOD saw Miriam's jealousy and complaints as grumbling against HIM
i mean, after all...who are we to judge HIS SERVANT(S)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi EG,

When I read the posts that speak of faith and works, I'm not seeing that they are talking about faith apart from works. They are saying because a person has faith, he will work. And you and others have said that too.

If a person focuses in on works, then that makes their theology wrong? Then those of you who focus on faith, that would also make you theology wrong too.

But if the one who focuses on faith and says a person can have faith without works they'd be wrong because James says a person with faith will also have works.

So far, I've see those focusing on works to say that we must be saved by grace through faith and works will follow. So if everyone is saying the same thing, is there really an argument?

The argument is where people say works are required to be saved, and a lack of works will cause one to lose salvation.

Not that works are an automatic result of faith, which saves. and everyone who is saved will work.

Those are two completely different things,