This is the Dividing Line on BDF

[eternally-gratefull]

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we will always be 'saved' by Grace through Faith, but the 'works that we do, here on earth, will determine
our place, our seat, our service to our Father when we join with Him in His Kingdom...

Yes, They will also determine our rewards, what they will never d s determine our salvation,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I want to correct myself here. We are not to get riled up about anything. I looked up the definition and it means to be annoyed or irritated. That's not love. If someone preaches works salvation the first thought should be to love them and get them saved. And that takes patient endurance, being calm kind and caring.

So sorry that I said that, EG and anyone else who read that.

i think we get upset when we see people willingly following the way of the Pharisee, and you keep showing them over and over, and they keep excusing it away, and then it gets to the point they lie about you or attack you to make you look bad for even questioning them,

people respond in different ways when this happens.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Hi Stunned,

But for arguments sake, let's say that she doesn't mean that. Should she be loved on with correction by prayer and showing her scriptures that might say differently, or should we call names and throw rocks? And I'm not saying you do that, I'm saying it for the rest of us who respond in this way.

But lets say she does believe that. Should we still not be courteous to her extending grace to her especially is she's a sister in the Lord that doesn't quite understand every nuance of doctrine.

And here's what I posted to EG in case you want to read it.

Yes, you extend grace,

but then hen what do you do when she gets angry, starts attacking you, starts living about what you believe, and a group of them get together and start a war (as happened with the hypergrace war a few months ago, which was very nasty)

and if if she believes in works, is she really our sister? And if you do not think she is, do you not continue to try to show her or him the way to become your sister or brother?

 

[Grace777x70]

Thats close?

what really is the difference in saying we are saved by works, or we maintain our salvation by works, are they not the same?

One says our salvation is not final until we work to earn it. A lock of work will disqualify us from being saved

The other says we are given salvation, But it must be maintained, in other words, it is not final until one works to earn it (lack of work will cause it to be lost, or disqualified)

Amen...we don't do good works "to keep ourselves saved." That is an anti-Christ belief system that nullifies the very grace of God needed to live in this world. We don't "save ourselves" - Christ alone is the Savior of the world - especially of us believers.

Good works are a fruit of His life being manifested in and through us to a hurt and dying world that needs to see the love and grace our loving Father and Lord have for them.

The church is full of "unbelieving believers" because we have been fed a steady diet of law and works for salvation and living but the Lord is revealing the truth of Christ's magnificent work on the cross and resurrection to all of us! We have a great salvation in Him.

He alone is our true life for we have died with Him and rose to newness of life with Him. Col.3:1-3

Christ Jesus Himself is "the dividing line in the BDF".

 

[miknik5]

True, but most of the time a stick mentioned in scripture is just a stick...when we start seeing allegory /types/shadows in all things, we become blind, because we only see, what we are expecting the allegory/types/shadow to show us and not what should be revealed to us by his Spirit, who searches all the deep things, yes all the deep things of God.

Allegorical/type/shadow interpretation has its place, but to use it in everything leads to deception and bluntly put, a very myopic view of Scripture.

Show me just one thing (never mind most of the time) from THE WORD that wasn't a hidden truth of CHRIST

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We have very little Catholic Churches (if you compare it to other churches) but the influence are there...

Sad state of affairs.

yes it is, it is satans greatest weapon against truth,

 

[notuptome]

You can never blur the line between light and darkness. Despite the adversary's best efforts he will be sorted out at the end of the world.

2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[miknik5]

yes it is, it is satans greatest weapon against truth,

Could you elaborate

 

[miknik5]

yes it is, it is satans greatest weapon against truth,

Satan's greatest weapon is this:
who will go up to Ramoth Gilead with me


he actually depends on it
because it's the very thing that will cause "ahab" and those who follow him, to fsll

 

[miknik5]

What "stick" are you referring to?

the rod or the staff?

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Then we need to be good Jews and stone those that don't "do the law." We need to be stoning Christians like Stephen. Stephen was a Jew and he would keep his heritage that he was brought up in.

Brother Grace!!!! What am I going to do with you????

I did quote Acts 6 and highlighted/emphasising the part where the writer states false witnesses brother . You can argue around this all day and night but Stephen kept the law that is why they had to construct false accusations. He did keep his heritage (like you will call it) but he called the Jewish leaders hypocrites and they didn't like it at all. Are we even reading the same Acts chapter?

Read it again brother and stop being part of the people accusing Stephen falsely.

 

[Grace777x70]

Brother Grace!!!! What am I going to do with you????

I did quote Acts 6 and highlighted/emphasising the part where the writer states false witnesses brother . You can argue around this all day and night but Stephen kept the law that is why they had to construct false accusations. He did keep his heritage (like you will call it) but he called the Jewish leaders hypocrites and they didn't like it at all. Are we even reading the same Acts chapter?

Read it again brother and stop being part of the people accusing Stephen falsely.

....I did agree that Stephen - being a good Jew would keep his religion. Acts 6 has nothing to do with the way Christians observe the Sabbath rest that is found in Christ alone.


I also pointed out where Paul told the Gentile Christians as well as the Jews not to circumcise their children as the law of Moses says to do. ( This is in direct violation of the law of Moses )

In context we see exactly what those "accusations" were against Stephen.

Acts 6:13-14 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] They put forward false witnesses who said, "This man incessantly speaks against this holy place and the Law;

[SUP]14 [/SUP] for we have heard him say that this Nazarene, Jesus, will destroy this place and alter the customs which Moses handed down to us."

The preaching of Christ's work will always cause our religious minds to be offended because Christ Himself is the real substance of all things in the Old Testament.

Jesus never spoke of destroying the physical temple in Jerusalem, and I don’t suspect Stephen did either. But it was true that the customs Moses gave would be changed. They were only symbolic and once the reality had come, the symbolism wasn’t necessary ( Colossians 2:16-17).

I’m sure Stephen said things along those lines, and the Jews expounded on that to say Stephen was preaching the destruction of the temple. In the New Covenant, our bodies are the temples of the living God (1 Corinthians 6:19).


And in the religious minds of the Jews back then - he was speaking against their ways. Stephen gives the history of the "Jews" in his talk. Stephen was talking about the "temple" and that it is not where God dwells anymore - for the veil was rent from top to bottom.

Acts 7:46-48 (NASB)
[SUP]46 [/SUP] "David found favor in God's sight, and asked that he might find a dwelling place for the God of Jacob.

[SUP]47 [/SUP] "But it was Solomon who built a house for Him.

[SUP]48 [/SUP] "However, the Most High does not dwell in houses made by human hands; as the prophet says:

He was saying that through Christ, believers are in right standing with God without the keeping of the Law and the sacrificial system.

Those who rejected Jesus as the Messiah would have, of course, thought that was blasphemy. But it was true because Jesus was the Lamb that took away the sins of the world (John 1:29 and 36).

Religious people today would be offended at Stephen’s message too. They may not keep the feasts and sacrifices, but they have the spirit of the Law still in force. It’s offensive to legalistic people to say that faith in Jesus is all people need (Ephesians 2:8).

Jesus didn’t come to destroy the Law but to fulfill it (Matthew 5:17). He then replaced it with a better covenant (Hebrews 8:6-7).

The Jews didn’t understand this when Jesus taught on it or when Stephen spoke these same truths. Jesus did prophesy the destruction of the temple (Matthew 24:1-2, Mark 13:1-2, and Luke 21:5-6) and the changing of the Mosaic customs (Matthew 5:21-48 and John 4:21-23). However, this was not in contradiction of the Law but rather the fulfillment of it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Could you elaborate

Take a large bolder or large rock, and put it in a large open field,

then take some cement and rebar and form it into the shape of the bolder, or large rock, let it harden, then use some paint to color the exposed surface so they look the same, and place it next to the real rock

from a distance they look the same, you can even name both of them the same (Christ) and you can not really tell the difference,

if you take the time to get close and examine the two stones, you will see one is made by the creator, one is a copy, one is strong, one has strong areas but has many weak areas, one is perfect one is flawed, one is indestructible, one can be crushed, one is made by God, one was made by Satan.

All satan has to do is get people to look at the copy, which looks so like the real thing, and determine that that copy is not the copy, but actually the real thing, And the real rock is actually the flawed copy. And that is what he has done, People will go to their deaths believing the copy was the real foundation stone and they placed their faith in that stone, When if they would have just investigated closely, It was flawed it had weaknesses, It could be crushed, But they could not see it, because they blindly believed it to be the true fundation stone for whihc the church was built.

Satan got the Jews to believe the law was their foundation, or religion mixed with the worlds religion (pagan gods) and not the one true God, and because if it, They rebelled against the true stone when it came and crucified him, and through out their history, attacked the prophets and people who followed the one true God of Israel and did not give into the copy which was made by satan,.

In the same token, Satan created the copy of the Rock and named it Christ, and many follow it and rebel against the true stone, and attack the people who consider that stone the true foundation. so you have the true church, and the false church, Yet from a distance, they both look the same.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

....I did agree that Stephen - being a good Jew would keep his religion. Acts 6 has nothing to do with the way Christians observe the Sabbath rest that is found in Christ alone.


I also pointed out where Paul told the Gentile Christians as well as the Jews not to circumcise their children as the law of Moses says to do. ( This is in direct violation of the law of Moses )

In context we see exactly what those "accusations" were against Stephen.

Brother Grace, I am going to take you outside and we can settle it there once and for all

Deu 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

I will say this again, God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. The circumcision of the heart is nothing new. The fact that God doesn't want our false sacrifices are also in the OT

Hos 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

Stephen was a law keeper. If he didn't keep the Torah (like keeping the Sabbath holy ) the Jewish leaders would have had enough reason to not bear false witness and kill him according to the law. The same goes for every disciple of Jesus. They were law keepers whether we like it or not or even if we don't understand why. Do a study on this and you will find that even your beloved Paul was a law keeper after he came to know our Messiah.

God bless friend

 

[notmyown]

having skipped a bunch of pages, it appears the diving line in the BDF is
grace v works, aka eternal security v not.

quelle suprise!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

having skipped a bunch of pages, it appears the diving line in the BDF is
grace v works, aka eternal security v not.

quelle suprise!

lol, That seems to be the dividing line in all of Christianity.

 

[notmyown]

lol, That seems to be the dividing line in all of Christianity.

right?

i take great comfort in this:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1 Pet 1:3-5)

kept by the power of God. there is no greater love, no greater faithfulness, no greater power than His.
He will see to it His own persevere.

 

[Susanna]

Why bother if someone else is a grace/works believer? What difference does it make to YOU if Jane and John Doe believes in grace/works?

This is a general post not directed at anyone in particular.

 

[PennEd]

Why bother if someone else is a grace/works believer? What difference does it make to YOU if Jane and John Doe believes in grace/works?

This is a general post not directed at anyone in particular.

THIS is why it makes a difference to those who SOLELY trust in Jesus for Salvation:

13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves,nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.14 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.[c]
15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

 

[miknik5]

Why bother if someone else is a grace/works believer? What difference does it make to YOU if Jane and John Doe believes in grace/works?

This is a general post not directed at anyone in particular.

HE's THE MASTER and HE knows HIS servants and who are we to judge THE MASTER's servants

To HIM alone they will stand or fall
And HE is able to make them stand