Not By Works

[Meggido]

So, in essence you are saying God is a liar....he promised to

1. NEVER forsake us or leave us<----yet you say he will
1. He will finish the work of faith he started in us<---Yet you say he won't
3. Nothing can separate us from the love of GOD<---but something can
4. He began our faith and finishes our faith<---another broken promise you say
5. He that believes has eternal life<---Temporary according to you
6. He seals us with his Spirit which is proof of faith and salvation<---He breaks his seal
7. We are spiritually born of incorruptible seed<--Yet is can be corrupted and we can be UNBORN

etc....At the end of the day....You are in essence saying GOD is a liar....PAY attention to the definition of the word UTTERMOST and quit calling God a liar......

Uttermost

pantelés: all complete, entire​

Original Word: παντελής, ές
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: pantelés
Phonetic Spelling: (pan-tel-ace')
Short Definition: complete, forever, entirely
Definition: complete, entire, perfect, through all time.

God never changes....can man?

 

[Rosemaryx]

I would say that works do not keep us saved.

It is by the grace of God we are saved by faith.

Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Per NKJV bible study notes

2:8–10 Christians have been saved by grace. The grace of God is the source of salvation; faith is the channel, not the cause. God alone saves. Salvation never originates in the efforts of people; it always arises out of the lovingkindness of God. Truly, “salvation is of the Lord” (Jon. 2:9). The past tense of the verb saved in this passage indicates that the believer’s salvation has already occurred in the past, at the Cross. the gift of God: We cannot do anything to earn our salvation. Some suggest that the gift of God modifies the word faith in this verse. Thus Paul is saying that even our belief in God does not originate in ourselves. This too is a gift.

But what is apparent we have been created in Jesus (don't fully understand that bit) for good works, to do good works, to become more like him.

Good works are evidence of faith.

Just to add a side note as a believer we can still have bad works, but as Jesus increases in us then bad works decreases.
The fruit of the spirt grows.

Hi BillG...I believe this post should be the closing post of this thread, nothing else to say, it`s all in here brother...xox...I do not understand how some people do not get this, why is it so hard to see, maybe they have scales on their eyes and need to ask Jesus to remove the scales, then we can ALL sing " I once was lost, but now i am found, was blind but now i see "...xox...

 

[Ariel82]

Thats me and the wife on our wedding day.

I'm the one wearing the kilt

Yep....looks better on you than the white wedding dress....but I bet your wife could rock The kilt too...

 

[JIMBO43]

I wreckons thats there two ways to be saved..


1 God sees that you are being mistreated or abused in some way, so he saves you...

2 God sees you want to be right by him he saves you...

3 what happens then is upto you now that you have His power...

some people with Gods power go the other way like satan did and fall from grace..

 

[followjesus]

When it's totally misinterpreted, it is.

thats the gog. the grace definition replaces every principle in Gods word. thats why its called the "gospel of grace" repentance? unwarranted favor, righteousness ? unwarranted favor, obedience? unwarranted favor, the commandments? unwarranted favor. it actually makes websters definition of grace the law of God. God favors you, nothing you can ever do will change the fact that God favors you. if you sin? say grace, confess your sins? why your already forgiven by the "covenant of grace" Gods unwarranted favor to you. reoent and stop sinnoing? never think that way or youll be condemned its not grace is you need to believe anything else in the bible youve fallen from grace .

on and on it really sends the message you can do nothing wrong regardless of what you actually do, never feel guilt for your sin or you just dont understand grace, if you think you need to obey God your following the law and missed grace, its always the answer to any problem say grace grace. worship grace, exalt grace ignore the rest its a trap. the 4 gospels? naw they will convict you and teach you your just a sinner, then only 10 percent of pauls words will save you but dont believe anything he says either that says you need to repent and obey God thats a trap just say Grace.

in the end alot of folks are going to kneel before Jesus and say grace grace lord......and He will say away from me you workers of iniquity what you thought you had is taken from you. terribly sad but no less true

 

[willybob]

A word you really need to learn......

con·text
ˈkäntekst/
noun
noun: context; plural noun: contexts

• the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed.
  "the decision was taken within the context of planned cuts in spending"
  [TABLE="class: vk_tbl vk_gy"]
  [TR]
  [TD="class: lr_dct_nyms_ttl"]synonyms:[/TD]
  [TD]circumstances, conditions, factors, state of affairs, situation, background, scene, setting More"the wider historical context"
  
  
  
  frame of reference, contextual relationship;
  text, subject, theme, topic
  "a quote taken out of context"
  
  [/TD]
  [/TR]
  [/TABLE]
  • the parts of something written or spoken that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning.
    "word processing is affected by the context in which words appear"
  
  
  
  please spare me the rhetoric. man will look for every excuse he can to disobey God...I've seen dozens of them on this site alone, they seem to be endless....and I ask again, how could God expect Cain to obey, but we somehow cannot? It would appear under your theology that God should go back and apologize to Cain for commanding him to do things like rule over sin that he was not capable of....
  

 

[Stephen63]

Here's the thing about works.

The just shall LIVE by faith. That means the rest of our lives.

We're saved by grace through faith. Through means throughout our lives.

James says faith without works is dead. So to have living faith, godly works must follow faith.

A very rough analogy would stipulate that more godly works means more faith, & less means less.

So, to put it in very simple terms, godly works does not keep our salvation alive. They are merely the "gas gauge" of how much faith we have.

When there's no godly works due to disobedience & willful rebellion, then faith is dead.

It is then, & only then, that we can lose our salvation, because we quit living by faith, one of the two major "musts" of salvation.

Every christian MUST 1. accept God's gift of grace (Jesus) AND 2. live by faith in Christ to be saved, & remain saved. Stop either one, & it's over, unless we repent.

 

[stonesoffire]

I don't think you are reading this correctly Fran.

~Col 1:22　 InG1722 theG3588 bodyG4983 of hisG848 fleshG4561 throughG1223 death,G2288 to presentG3936 youG5209 holyG40 andG2532 unblameableG299 andG2532 unreproveableG410 in his sight:G2714G848　


Col 1:23　 IfG1489 ye continueG1961 in theG3588 faithG4102 groundedG2311 andG2532 settled,G1476 andG2532be notG3361 moved awayG3334 fromG575 theG3588 hopeG1680 of theG3588 gospel,G2098 whichG3739 ye have heard,G191and which was preachedG2784 toG1722 everyG3956 creatureG2937 whichG3588 is underG5259 heaven;G3772 whereofG3739 IG1473 PaulG3972 am madeG1096 a minister;G1249　


Paul's Ministry to the Church
Col 1:24　 WhoG3739 nowG3568 rejoiceG5463 inG1722 myG3450 sufferingsG3804 forG5228 you,G5216 andG2532 fill upG466 that which is behindG5303 of theG3588 afflictionsG2347 of ChristG5547 inG1722 myG3450 fleshG4561 for his body's sake,G5228G846G4983 which isG3603 theG3588 church:G1577

Throughout our life as we go through sufferings, testings, and even provision and joys...if we continue grounded in our faith of the gospel...we will be presented at the jugdement seat of Christ holy, a life that was separated to Him, holding fast to the Head, without blame, and without reproof.

We endure temptations and trials as an overcomer...by the blood of the Lamb and the Word of His testimony. His work finished. This has to do with crowns. Rewards.

And we endure in faith and love. That will have great reward.

What am I not understanding?

page 1 of 2[/QUOTE]

You just said this in another post.

~
This does not abolish the Law...Mathew 5:17. It does give us a new way to follow it and to make our work count for something since it is for God that we work and not for man

So you are saying that the finished work of the Cross of Jesus Christ has given us grace to follow the law? I think here is the basis for our disagreement.

 

[JIMBO43]

Here's the thing about works.

The just shall LIVE by faith. That means the rest of our lives.

We're saved by grace through faith. Through means throughout our lives.

James says faith without works is dead. So to have living faith, godly works must follow faith.

A very rough analogy would stipulate that more godly works means more faith, & less means less.

So, to put it in very simple terms, godly works does not keep our salvation alive. They are merely the gas gauge of how much faith we have.

When there's no godly works due to disobedience & willful rebellion, then faith is dead.

It is then, & only then, that we can lose our salvation, because we quit living by faith, one of the two major "musts" of salvation.

Every christian MUST 1. accept God's gift of grace (Jesus) AND 2. live by faith in Christ to be saved, & remain saved. Stop either one, & it's over, unless we repent.

this reminds of a song [video=youtube;7km4EHgkQiw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7km4EHgkQiw[/video]

 

[stonesoffire]

Fran, what is your definition of grace?

 

[BillG]

Hi followingjesus.

you guys dont Get something really important. Sin is deadly it will Kill the spirit in us, we Know this already from the Garden through all of the examples all through the bible, the flood which doesnt make God " cruel" yet He destroyed all the people on earth and the animals saving only seeds of each Kind and 8 Humans to carry mankind on. The reason He did this was Because of sin. when God is teaching us what not to do, its Like telling your kid dont play on the freeway a car will run you over, or better its like telling your adult child, you absolutely Have to stop using heroin, it will kill you son, stop, i will pay for your treatment, but you have to be wiling to go to treatment and do the steps to get clean.

I just want to say that I'm not sure that I agree with your first sentence, only because you seem to be saying you guys don't get something, I think those, us guys do get it but maybe translating it causes confusion.

when God is teaching us what not to do, its Like telling your kid dont play on the freeway a car will run you over, or better its like telling your adult child, you absolutely Have to stop using heroin, it will kill you son, stop, i will pay for your treatment, but you have to be wiling to go to treatment and do the steps to get clean.

I applaud the above, there are some points I would like to add but I won't because I don't want to detract from it.
That paragraph for me deserves a rep.

 

[JIMBO43]

@stephen63 i can imagine that many have denied God who are saved stephen

 

[followjesus]

Nope that hat s not repentance, a non believer can not even do this, he must be saved first, and in order to be saved he must repent. Because until you repent you will never have saving faith.

either way man you have to stop sinning thats what repentance is salvation doesnt excuse ongoing sin. a human without Jesus can never not sin never repent. they arent even aware of sin in order to repent of it kind of like the gog crowd they dont acknowledge thier sin. disciples of jesus Christ though they will repent in earnest because of whats been done and because of the fact that they have faith. faith and action. repentance ultimately is to quit sinning. Jesus made us well able IF a person has received His spirit, repoenting wont be an issue, but a work gladly done in gratitude. not a one time thing an ongoing process and not effortless nor by grace.

comes by Godly sorrow being aware of your own ongoing sin. is what it is if were sinning knowing its sin we need to repent. simple really but youd have to go to the ot to get what repentance is. its to stop commiting iniquity and return to righteousness. there is no other form of repentance.

 

[willybob]

Yes, the New Covenant does include the Ten Commandments, but they are not written on stone but in the hearts of those who have been converted. Please note (and this is stated in the New Testament (which also means New Covenant):

Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. (Hebrews 10:15-17).

So what was nailed to the cross is OUR MULTIPLE VIOLATIONS and transgression of these Ten Commandments. Christ was made Sin for us and all our iniquities were laid on Him.

Christ did not become sin. Martin Luther invented that myth...VIRTUE is never transferred anywhere in the bible, no not once......He was a spotless and blameless Lamb without sin...."Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and forever" If He had become sin for even one minute it would have completely negated this truth..

He bore the burden of our sin in that His works justified God's mercy and forgiveness, that we might repent and be reconciled back into covenant with our creator. Knowing this first: he wrath of God still remains upon the children of disobedience....be blessed

 

[dcontroversal]

Absolutely, as long as they stay faithful to Christ.
Colossians 1:21-23
And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel.

Being eternally forgiven and saved is not the same as having a blameless life due to faithful obedience...maybe one day you and your working for pals will figure that truth out before it is too late...

 

[dcontroversal]

Here are Paul's words:


Colossians 1:20-23 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in [a]heaven.

21 And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,

22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—

23 IF indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, [c]was made a [d]minister.

IF you hold on to your faith, Jesus will be able to present you holy to the Father.

IF YOU HOLD ON TO YOUR FAITH.

Your faith should make you want to do everything Jesus taught.
THIS is what you are to hold on to. Jesus' teachings, by way of your faith.

Take it up with Jesus and Paul...Faith PLUS WORKS FOR=false and the plenteous in number group that gets cast

 

[JIMBO43]

Fran, what is your definition of grace?

pointing out that this is a loaded question.. which is ankle biting lol

 

[dcontroversal]

As usual, you're wrong.

How in the world did you think you could get by with a statement like that?!?

Maybe it's because you think the BDF orbits around you? You sure have your group orbiting you in this thread.

Or maybe you're so much like God that you can say it, & that settles it?

With hypergrace spread all over the internet, how did you think you could just say that?.

Unless..... someone's so high-minded or mean he thinks others will just bow down to him.

Regardless of your reasons, that was just plain ridiculous & total nonsense..

Sorry, can't see it any other way.

Re-read my statement and come online with the truth..what I said was correct!!

 

[JIMBO43]

either way man you have to stop sinning thats what repentance is salvation doesnt excuse ongoing sin. a human without Jesus can never not sin never repent. they arent even aware of sin in order to repent of it kind of like the gog crowd they dont acknowledge thier sin. disciples of jesus Christ though they will repent in earnest because of whats been done and because of the fact that they have faith. faith and action. repentance ultimately is to quit sinning. Jesus made us well able IF a person has received His spirit, repoenting wont be an issue, but a work gladly done in gratitude. not a one time thing an ongoing process and not effortless nor by grace.

comes by Godly sorrow being aware of your own ongoing sin. is what it is if were sinning knowing its sin we need to repent. simple really but youd have to go to the ot to get what repentance is. its to stop commiting iniquity and return to righteousness. there is no other form of repentance.

good responce and also i wreckon those who are the done deal will never sin again. im just hoping ill get there..

 

[dcontroversal]

hate to burst your bubble, but they are no " groups " working together behind the scenes, ( at least I am not part of one).

this may come as a shock to you , but- some of us do not think we are sinless. some of us understand what rightly dividing the Words of truth mean, some of us have no agendas, some of us have o interest In telling others how to live their lives, some of us just believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and understand that the Gospel is not a behavior modification program.

Amen........and I agree