Not By Works

FranC · Jul 28, 2017

I don't quite understand the difference to which you infer in loving MAN and loving the Whole world.
Loving the Whole world is the same as loving MAN.

What is the difference?

As far as John 3:16.
Sure. To whom Jesus is presented, and rejected, they reject God.

Whoever BELIEVES in the Son has life.

Whoever does NOT believe in the Son does not have life.

Believe means to do as Jesus did, to follow His lead.
We are to act like Him
And to do what He instructed us to do.

That is what believe means.
If we do not do as Jesus instructed, it's because we do NOT believe in Him.

Our faith must be a faith that is alive since Jesus is the life.

UnderGrace · Jul 28, 2017

It is not your ability in Christ but Christ's ability in you.
That my friend is grace.

oops I used the word again.

Stephen63 said:

And you wonder why folks say you believe you don't have to do anything?

Posting stuff like this all day, & then say, "yes we will have works."

I responded to conviction.

I came to Him. (But He made it easy & plain as day)

I had to confess & repent.

I had to accept Christ as savior & LORD.

I don't glory in that, because God did everything to draw me to Him. But when He saved me, He gave me power to become His son, & commit to Him the way He wants me to.

In Christ I have the ability, so I am without excuse to walk in faithfulness & live by faith every day.

I have no excuse not to believe, for God is faithful.

Yet every day I must choose to walk in newness of life. I must choose to keep the old man dead.

It is easy, because His yoke is easy, & His burden's light.

Those that do nothing but hide their faith in the ground will not survive.

FranC · Jul 28, 2017

Stunnedbygrace said:

For Dcon....:

Above is HYPER GRACE.

The poster says we DO NOT HAVE TO ABIDE IN CHRIST
AND WE WILL STILL BE SAVED.

Does that make sense to you?

What does JESUS say about abiding??

John 15:4-6 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit [a]of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.

5 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

This is JESUS speaking. It is not MY opinion.
I believe Jesus knew what He meant when speaking about ABIDING.

ccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccccc

a·bide (ə-bīd′)

v. a·bode (ə-bōd′) or a·bid·ed, a·bid·ing, a·bides
v.tr.

1. To put up with; tolerate: can't abide such incompetence. See Synonyms at endure.

2. To wait patiently for: "I will abide the coming of my lord" (Tennyson).

v.intr.
1. To remain in a place: "I'll call upon you straight. Abide within" (Shakespeare).

2. To continue in existence; endure: "I have decided my life can't be about absence, what I don't have, what does not abide, and the rich grief it brings" (Amy Benson).

3. To dwell or reside.
Idiom:
abide by
To conform to; comply with: abide by the rules.

Zmouth · Jul 28, 2017

FranC said:

One could take it that God so loved the world that he didn't want to destroy the world to end mankind but rather He gave his only begotten Son that so that mankind doesn't destroy the world.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Matt 5:17

FranC said:

So what do you do to be perfect since it Jesus instructed us "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matt 5:48

Stunnedbygrace · Jul 28, 2017

FranC said:

Ahh...this is something I have thought about for a long time!
Why so many denominations?
I think it is an odd repeat of the tower of Babel.
Which means, to me, that something was being built that would make a name for people and so they would not be scattered and that some-thing they were building was a "way to God." And so that they would not continue to build this thing that would "reach to the heavens" He confused their language and scattered them.

It appears to me that what began as "by faith alone" has become a construction of...doctrine. And God didn't allow that construction to continue but scattered the builders of it.

In this forum, doctrine seems to be the construction. It is more important to maintain the structure of systematic theology than it is to walk in the spirit. People will give no thought to continuing to walk in the spirit because all that matters is the construction of systematic theology and whoever is threatening to try to tear it down (in their mind). Awful things are said to each other in horrible displays of the flesh, all for defense of the structure. And there are now many such structures dotting the countryside.
At the point we are at, I would actually follow and give the advice that one do as the poster said and just study the word and let the Spirit guide you to truth rather than recommend one of the many structures. It's become too confused. The language is too confused and I think God did it because He didn't like what was being built.

That's my opinion. I think it has to become apparent at some point that it's a repeat of the tower of babel...

Grace777x70 · Jul 28, 2017

mailmandan said:

That is a great teaching that shows Paul didn't keep the Sabbath as outlined in the law of Moses.

He did however keep the true Sabbath rest is in Christ as the "shadow of the Old Testament testifies to " by depending on what Christ has done and taught the gospel of the grace of God in Christ's finished work on the cross and resurrection to everyone who believes.

If some in Christ feel they want to observe a day differently - that is their freedom in Christ - but to those that pervert the gospel by saying Christians need to "observe the Sabbath as outlined in the Old Testament way or you are sinning and dis-obeying God".

To those we will stand against for the perversion and bondage that they are trying to bring to Christians and the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.

We will stand against this Judaizing spirit and expose it so that young Christians will not be "bewitched". Gal. 3:1

Acts 15:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."

Galatians 2:4-5 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] But it was because of the false brethren secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage.

[SUP]5 [/SUP] But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

GandalfTheWhite · Jul 28, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

Friend, why do you ignore the evidence in Acts 24 & 28? Paul makes it clear that he was still keeping the law.

God bless brother Grace

Grace777x70 · Jul 28, 2017

All of man-kind was included in Christ's sacrifice on the cross. Romans 5 talks about this as well as 2 Corinthians.

The two thieves that were "crucified with Him " represent the whole world - some believe - some don't.

All the earth and it's people belong to Christ.

Those who receive Christ are the ones that "abide/remain/stay" in Him. The Greek word for "abide means to stay, remain". Works based mindsets take this as "doing works" to stay in the Vine. It's religious nonsense.

It is the "sap" from the Vine that produces the life of the branch and that is where the fruit of the Vie is manifested. The branch can do nothing on it's own.

Abiding in Christ is NOT a work we do for salvation. It's a "position" we have because we are in Christ and Christ is in us.

Get this wrong and we create a religion of self-works in order to "keep ourselves saved". It's an anti-Christ belief. Anti-Christ means "against Christ and His work that is finished".

Stunnedbygrace · Jul 28, 2017

FranC said:

I can say, without a doubt, that you misunderstood me.

I said arguments over whether we have to abide or not are unnecessary when we have such a forgiving God.
I meant the arguments are unnecessary. The abiding is very necessary!
My one main complaint is that in every debate on OSAS/NOSAS, the one "side" gets twisted around in defense of their position to the point that abiding becomes unnecessary. It is impossible to maintain that continuing and growing in trust is unnecessary. It IS the race I am in! By grace through faith can never stand if you remove the faith part later on. It is a defense of eternal life without running the entire race!

Zmouth · Jul 28, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

The Old testament says do all your work in 6 days and on the 7th day rest. Not sure how it can be observed any other way yet I don't consider it a sin if one doesn't observe it but rather a lost blessing.

If anyone doesn't know what that means then do as written in James 1:5If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Grace777x70 · Jul 28, 2017

GandalfTheWhite said:

There is nothing that I can see my brother in Acts 24 ( I haven't looked at 28 yet..but will...

) that says that Paul kept the Sabbath day as outlined in the Old Testament way.

That is the whole essence of law and grace. The law of Christ Himself living in and through us does keep the whole intent of the law - just not in "the way" of the Old Covenant.

Jesus said that all the law and the prophets speak of Christ Himself - which is why Paul was able to say - " believing all things that are written in the law and the prophets."

Law-keepers mis-apply this to mean that Paul kept the law of Moses in it's original state - which is in a carnal ( of the flesh way ) keeping of it.

This of course is totally false because Paul said to the Galatians that if they get circumcised as the law states they should - then Christ will become of no effect to them and they have fallen from grace. Gal. 5:2-4

( As a good Jew - I'm sure Paul kept some of his old ways of living too but he certainly didn't put gentile Christians under his Jewish cultural traditions and demand that they follow it or they are sinning and dis-obeying God as some Sabbath keepers try to put on other Christians )

Stephen63 · Jul 28, 2017

UnderGrace said:

They both are the same.

You would have said the other if I did.

This shows lack of integrity.

Grace777x70 · Jul 28, 2017

Here are some "high-lights from the website that Mailmandan gave out showing that Paul didn't keep the Sabbath as in the Old Testament way - but in "reality" - Paul did keep the true Sabbath - which is resting from his works to rely on Christ in Him for life and living.

Brethren - we need to stand against this Judaizing spirit. People are fee to observe any day as they like in the Lord but when they come and say "We are sinning and dis-obeying God because we don't observe the Sabbath as the Old testament way"

They also use spiritual manipulation attempts like "Why don't you believe the word of God? I am only giving you the word of God? Are we to believe man or the word of God? Why don't you love Jesus?

- that is what Paul calls in Gal. 3:1 them "bewitching" us.

Apostle Paul never kept the sabbath, certainly not 84 times as Adventists say!

Quote:

Proof Apostle Paul did not keep the Sabbath these 84 times:

A. The Bible no where says that Paul or ANY Christian kept the Sabbath according to the commandment after the resurrection.

What we do have are frequent examples of Paul preaching to non-Christian Jews in THEIR synagogue on THEIR Sabbath day, that they are lost without Jesus! Should this surprise us? Do Sabbatarians Pastors "keep Sunday" if they preach in a Christian church on the first day of the week?

B. These passages speak of Paul preaching to the non-Christian Jews in their synagogues.

None of these passages, or any other in the New Testament, ever speak of Christians worshipping on the Sabbath day.

If Paul preaching to Jews on the Sabbath day proves he kept the Sabbath, then it also proves Paul kept synagogue worship as well!

C. If Paul "kept the Sabbath" because he preached Christ to non-Christian Jews on THEIR Sabbath day in THEIR synagogue:

then Paul also kept all the other ceremonial laws that the non-Christian Jews practiced while he was there as well.

then a Seventh-day Adventist pastor "keeps Monday" just because he preaches to Muslims in their Mosque on Monday that they are lost without Christ!

then a Seventh-day Adventist pastor "keeps Sunday" just because he preaches to a church of "Sunday keeping" Christians on "Sunday" that they are breaking the Sabbath law!

What proves too much proves nothing at all!

D. When Paul removed himself from the Synagogue in Acts 19:8-10 did he then remove himself from Sabbath worship?

Stunnedbygrace · Jul 28, 2017

Stunnedbygrace said:

In other words, if I only need to ask forgiveness, from a God who is so, so forgiving, why do I need to grasp for eternal life as something that is my own possession now even apart from the through faith part? WHY would I even feel the need to do so? Why would I spend long hours trying to defend a position that has become a moot point to me? I don't have to defend eternal life - I just have to remain in Him. He IS eternal life. Why would I want to grasp for it and say, aha, it is now mine even if I don't remain and continue, when it is mine if I remain in Him/abide/continue in trust?

Zmouth · Jul 28, 2017

Zmouth said:

Hey look, I finally got one of those talking Bibles. Gee, I have wanted one for a long time, thank you Jesus.

Grace777x70 · Jul 28, 2017

What is the essence of the false doctrine of "saved by works". It comes in many flavors and colors but it's core belief remains unchanged and it is a direct violation of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection.

It is always those that think our loving Father throws His beloved children into hell that come up with this doctrine.

All religions - including the religion of Christianity ( as there is a religion like this that tries to mimic the life of Christ ) - are really manifesting that they are eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which has been set lose in this earth by Adam's transgression.

They are basing their life on what they do or don't do. They are attempting to establish their own righteousness by what they do or don't do. Good works are an example of this.

We see the "descriptions" in the words and actions of Jesus and in the epistles of what the true Christian life looks like when Christ's life and His fruit are being manifested.

The religion of Christianity then takes these "descriptions" and tries to "dictate" to the believers the life of Christ or the fruit of the Spirit into being.

In essence they are trying to mimic or duplicate the life and fruit of Christ and at the same time "demanding" that others do the same thing or else they are not saved.

The true Christian life is Christ Himself joined as one spirit with us manifesting His love, His grace, His life in and through us. It is His fruit - without Him we can do nothing.

All works-based - works-righteousness belief systems ( including the religion of Christianity ) have this as their core essence and it really nullifies the true grace of God from operating in our lives like it should.

This is the "why" behind when people say we must do "good works". That is what the fruit brings behind the work-for-salvation mindset and to maintain and create righteousness.

The reality is - as we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror - we are transformed by the Holy Spirit and the life of Christ will manifest itself in the doing of good works as the fruit of being in union with Him.

We do good works because it is a fruit of being in union with Christ not "to be saved". Christ alone is our Savior.

Preach and teach the love and grace of God in the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and Christians will have the proper nutrients to walk out what already is within them - which is Christ in us - the hope of glory.

We live by His life in us now - Christ Himself is that tree of life. Notice it is not the "knowledge of the tree of life" ( like it is with the other tree - the knowledge of good and evil ). We live by His life now.

GandalfTheWhite · Jul 28, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

He kept it all because if he didn't the Jews had a reason to kill him

(whisper: especially the Sabbath

)

God bless friend

Stunnedbygrace · Jul 28, 2017

Fran, another way to try to say what I mean is that...it seems to me that I can understand up to the point where they say they are saved whether they continue in faith or not. That is the point where I cannot follow their construction any longer. When it begins to skew into a statement that abiding is "works", I can no longer comprehend what they think they are building. It's like...the argument should not be works vs. faith. It should be works vs. grace THROUGH FAITH.

UnderGrace · Jul 28, 2017

You do like to judge? So certain are you of the failings of another?

NO worries as long as Jesus knows me all is good.

Stephen63 said:

Stephen63 · Jul 28, 2017

Grace777x70 said:

This is not true. Not everyone stays.

2 Timothy 4:10

New American Standard Bible
for Demas, having loved this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica; Crescens has gone to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia.

Again, a lie.

John 15:10

New International Version
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love.

New Living Translation
When you obey my commandments, you remain in my love, just as I obey my Father's commandments and remain in his love.

English Standard Version
If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love.

Berean Study Bible
If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and remain in His love.

Berean Literal Bible
If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

New American Standard Bible
"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

1 John 2

26These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. 27As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.28Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming. 29If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.

If our abiding was our permanent "position" with Christ, why are we commanded to abide?

Same old song & dance.

I think it's safe to say if the other two are wrong, so is this one.

After all, if a little leaven leavens the whole lump, what will a lot of leaven do?

Aaannd, if all is wrong, who then has this antichrist spirit?!?

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