Not By Works

[Stephen63]

What is the essence of the false doctrine of "saved by works". It comes in many flavors and colors but it's core belief remains unchanged and it is a direct violation of the gospel of the grace of God in Christ's work on the cross and resurrection.

It is always those that think our loving Father throws His beloved children into hell that come up with this doctrine.


All religions - including the religion of Christianity ( as there is a religion like this that tries to mimic the life of Christ ) - are really manifesting that they are eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil which has been set lose in this earth by Adam's transgression.

They are basing their life on what they do or don't do. They are attempting to establish their own righteousness by what they do or don't do. Good works are an example of this.

We see the "descriptions" in the words and actions of Jesus and in the epistles of what the true Christian life looks like when Christ's life and His fruit are being manifested.

The religion of Christianity then takes these "descriptions" and tries to "dictate" to the believers the life of Christ or the fruit of the Spirit into being.

In essence they are trying to mimic or duplicate the life and fruit of Christ and at the same time "demanding" that others do the same thing or else they are not saved.

The true Christian life is Christ Himself joined as one spirit with us manifesting His love, His grace, His life in and through us. It is His fruit - without Him we can do nothing.

All works-based - works-righteousness belief systems ( including the religion of Christianity ) have this as their core essence and it really nullifies the true grace of God from operating in our lives like it should.

This is the "why" behind when people say we must do "good works". That is what the fruit brings behind the work-for-salvation mindset and to maintain and create righteousness.

The reality is - as we behold the glory/goodness of the Lord as in a mirror - we are transformed by the Holy Spirit and the life of Christ will manifest itself in the doing of good works as the fruit of being in union with Him.

We do good works because it is a fruit of being in union with Christ not "to be saved". Christ alone is our Savior.

Preach and teach the love and grace of God in the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ and Christians will have the proper nutrients to walk out what already is within them - which is Christ in us - the hope of glory.

We live by His life in us now - Christ Himself is that tree of life. Notice it is not the "knowledge of the tree of life" ( like it is with the other tree - the knowledge of good and evil ). We live by His life now.

Since no one here believes in a works salvation, I conclude this is a strawman argument, plain & simple.

 

[gb9]

This is not true. Not everyone stays.

2 Timothy 4:10 ​

New American Standard Bible
for Demas, having loved this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica; Crescens has gone to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia.
Again, a lie.

John 15:10​

New International Version
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love.

New Living Translation
When you obey my commandments, you remain in my love, just as I obey my Father's commandments and remain in his love.

English Standard Version
If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love.

Berean Study Bible
If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and remain in His love.

Berean Literal Bible
If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

New American Standard Bible
"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

1 John 2​

26These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. 27As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.28Now, little children, abide in Him, so that when He appears, we may have confidence and not shrink away from Him in shame at His coming. 29If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.

If our abiding was our permanent "position" with Christ, why are we commanded to abide?

Same old song & dance.

I think it's safe to say if the other two are wrong, so is this one.

After all, if a little leaven leavens the whole lump, what will a lot of leaven do?

Aaannd, if all is wrong, who then has this antichrist spirit?!?

the whole leaven - lump thing you quote often is Paul in Galatians speaking of mixing the Law with grace. but you know that. you just use verses like this to try to control and intimidate. these tactics do no work on those of us who know the Bible just as well as you do.

 

[Zmouth]

He kept it all because if he didn't the Jews had a reason to kill him (whisper: especially the Sabbath )

God bless friend

Paul was a Roman. So the Jews didn't have any authority over him.

 

[dcontroversal]

titus 3:8 "This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men."

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy has he saved us.

You can quote 5000 scriptures about works and it still will not change the fact that we are not saved and or kept saved by works.....!

 

[Zmouth]

So why did Jesus say the following in Matt 7:23
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Ps 119:115-116
115 Depart from me, ye evildoers: for I will keep the commandments of my God.
116 Uphold me according unto thy word, that I may live: and let me not be ashamed of my hope.

 

[dcontroversal]

Dcon

Movements are given names for a reason...

Word of Faith ....... you speak what you want in full faith and God will give it to you. The Santa Clause syndrome.

Hyper Grace ....... It's God's grace but taken to a point where God does all the work and we do nothing.

Easy Believism ........ we make it very easy to believe since we get to do nothing and God does all the work.


Now... You cannot deny that both you and Others here are constantly saying that FAITH plus WORKS is an insult to God.
UnderGrace says this all the time and you agree since you Like her posts and say it yourself.
So, basically, you're saying that FAITH PLUS WORKS is a SIN. (since it's an insult to God)

If that's what you believe, then you belong to the HYPER GRACE movement. It's a MOVEMENT within the Church.
It sounds really nice and keeps people going to Church.

I hear that Catholics are scared into going to Church (which is not even true)
In the hyper Grace movement, people are told NOTHING is expected of them and they could still be saved !! What could be better to our human ears and mind !!

Now, I know that you and Grace and MMD and Stone and UnderGrace and all the Others are not saying we SHOULD sin...
However, when you say that WORKS are an insult to God..

Doesn't that sound to you like you're preaching AGAINST works ???

Think about it.

Sure.....works don't save or keep saved......like I told one of your pals above...you can quote 5000 scriptures about works and it will not change the fact that we are not saved or kept saved by works.....

And for the record...I have said that faith plus works to gain, keep or facilitate salvation is false, a dogma with no power to save and as heretical as water immersion for salvation is....

The underlined I totally disagree with and to the bolded....

Originally Posted by dcontroversal

There is no such thing as hyper grace and or easy believism..... this (ARE) moronic misnomers invented by the workers for salvation...there is God's unsurpassable grace which saves and then out bounds our sin....now that is the end of the story!

 

[Stephen63]

the whole leaven - lump thing you quote often is Paul in Galatians speaking of mixing the Law with grace. but you know that. you just use verses like this to try to control and intimidate. these tactics do no work on those of us who know the Bible just as well as you do.

1 Corinthians 5
​

1It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father’s wife. 2You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst. 3For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 6Your boasting is not good.Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?7Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed. 8Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Congratulations! You have just proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that you DON'T know the Bible as well as me like you claimed.

Now that you have openly proven what you don't know, you can stop with your leaven of malice & wickedness against me.

 

[Stephen63]

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy has he saved us.

You can quote 5000 scriptures about works and it still will not change the fact that we are not saved and or kept saved by works.....!

Uuummm..... you forgot to say, "end of story!!!"

 

[dcontroversal]

Faith plus works to EARN SALVATION OR KEEP IT is a false gospel.

Works after having been born again is a natural outflow of God's love and A FRUIT OF BEING SAVED.

However, people can still be saved and not yet display any fruit besides being sealed by the Holy spirit.

Why is that so hard to understand?

Being born of the spirit<---what is required to understand the word.....and if you blend anything with faith to gain, keep or facilitate salvation = a false gospel with no power to save.....that pretty mush sums up why they cannot understand.....nor will they until they actually trust JESUS by faith and faith alone.....Galatians 1 and 3 are clear enough!

 

[Grace777x70]

He kept it all because if he didn't the Jews had a reason to kill him (whisper: especially the Sabbath )

God bless friend

LOL....that was a good one. It made me laugh my precious brother. A good basket coming down from a wall helped Paul out in a pinch one time from them trying to kill him.

Here is another exert from the website that Dan gave which gives a little more insight.

Quote:

Paul understood that Moses had prophesied Jesus coming. To "give heed to Jesus" is to KEEP THE LAW of MOSES! Think of it as the law of Moses' own self destruct mechanism. Moses told the Jews to keep his law UNTIL Jesus came.

Then they were to ignore the Law of Moses and listen only to Jesus. In that way, a Christian who exclusively obey Jesus could be said to be keeping the Law of Moses. This is what Paul means by the following verses:

• Acts 3:22 "Moses said, 'The Lord God shall raise up for you a prophet like me from your brethren; to Him you shall give heed in everything He says to you. 'And it shall be that every soul that does not heed that prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.

• Acts 24:14 "But this I admit to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law, and that is written in the Prophets; having a hope in God

• Rom 3:31 "Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law"

• Acts 26:22 "And so, having obtained help from God, I stand to this day testifying both to small and great, stating nothing but what the Prophets and Moses said was going to take place; that the Christ was to suffer, and that by reason of His resurrection from the dead He should be the first to proclaim light both to the Jewish people and to the gentiles.

Unquote

I know you like to take tonight and tomorrow to observe Christ's finished work in your own choosing and I say "Happy Sabbath " to you and come back and tell us how you see Christ in the Sabbath.

Bless you!

Goeie nag my voorgeskrewe broer!

 

[Stephen63]

Being born of the spirit<---what is required to understand the word.....and if you blend anything with faith to gain, keep or facilitate salvation = a false gospel with no power to save.....that pretty mush sums up why they cannot understand.....nor will they until they actually trust JESUS by faith and faith alone.....Galatians 1 and 3 are clear enough!

Uuummm..... I didn't add or blend anything to it.

Here's the thing about works.

The just shall LIVE by faith. That means the rest of our lives.

We're saved by grace through faith. Through means throughout our lives.

James says faith without works is dead. So to have living faith, godly works must follow faith.

A very rough analogy would stipulate that more godly works means more faith, & less means less.

So, to put it in very simple terms, godly works does not keep our salvation alive. They are merely the "gas gauge" of how much faith we have.

When there's no godly works due to disobedience & willful rebellion, then faith is dead.

It is then, & only then, that we can lose our salvation, because we quit living by faith, one of the two major "musts" of salvation.

Every christian MUST 1. accept God's gift of grace (Jesus) AND 2. live by faith in Christ to be saved, & remain saved. Stop either one, & it's over, unless we repent.

 

[Zmouth]

Sure.....works don't save or keep saved......

If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: John 15:22

So when you were called to repentance did you have to confess your sins in order to receive salvation?

If you had to repent then tell me how works don't save?

 

[dcontroversal]

In other words, if I only need to ask forgiveness, from a God who is so, so forgiving, why do I need to grasp for eternal life as something that is my own possession now even apart from the through faith part? WHY would I even feel the need to do so? Why would I spend long hours trying to defend a position that has become a moot point to me? I don't have to defend eternal life - I just have to remain in Him. He IS eternal life. Why would I want to grasp for it and say, aha, it is now mine even if I don't remain and continue, when it is mine if I remain in Him/abide/continue in trust?

Verb tense proves eternal life based upon the initial act of faith....we are then KEPT by the power of GOD as JESUS saves to the UTTERMOST having been SEALED unto the day of redemption!

 

[Grace777x70]

the whole leaven - lump thing you quote often is Paul in Galatians speaking of mixing the Law with grace. but you know that. you just use verses like this to try to control and intimidate. these tactics do no work on those of us who know the Bible just as well as you do.

Amen...the leaven of mixing law and grace is true.

The scriptures talk about 5 kinds of leaven.

1) The leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees - which is self-righteousness and some didn't believe in the supernatural such as the resurrection. Matt. 16:6

2) The leaven of Herod - which is the world's belief system - living from the natural world's way of thinking which is corrupted. Mark 8:15

3) The leaven of the Galatians - legalism and mixture of law and grace. Gal. 5:1-11

4) The leaven of the Corinthians - which is in wickedness, malice, envy and immorality and slanderers of others in the body of Christ. 1 Cor. 5:6-11

5) The kingdom of God and how a little of it is like leaven and how things are grown in the kingdom - Matt. 13:33, Luke 13:21


All of them speak of things that influence us while we are in this earth and a little of them can grow into something bigger if put into practice.

 

[Zmouth]

LOL....that was a good one. It made me laugh my precious brother. A good basket coming down from a wall helped Paul out in a pinch one time from them trying to kill him.

Another being a battalion of armed forces;

Being two hundred soldiers, 70 horsemen along with two hundred spearmen that .
Acts 23:23

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Verb tense proves eternal life based upon the initial act of faith....we are then KEPT by the power of GOD as JESUS saves to the UTTERMOST having been SEALED unto the day of redemption!

I agree with that as long as I remain and grow in that initial trust. It requires some choices every day on my part. For one example, whether to go with the world and store up treasure on earth or to not worry and remain/abide/grow in trust.

But if I don't obey Him about an earthly thing like money, (which involves a struggle), that is a serious matter to me, because it means I'm NOT remaining in trust of what He has said. That means I'm not abiding. I think not abiding is grounds for disqualification from the race. It is to teach others to not store treasure on earth but then to not do what I teach them to not do. It is to be a hypocrite and to not walk in truth/light.

 

[Grace777x70]

There is no such thing as "going in and out of Christ' That is just religious nonsense from those that want to tell Christians that their loving Father will throw them into hell and the lake of fire.

1 John 2:27 (NASB)
[SUP]27 [/SUP] As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.

1 John 4:15-16 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

[SUP]16 [/SUP] We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

Those that say our Father throws His children into hell - do not know the love of the Father yet as they ought to. They can be seen in the older brother in the parable Jesus told of the loving father for His children. But they will one day!...

John here says that the "truth" is in us forever. Someone is lying or most likely just deceived by their church denominational teachings here when they say that God leaves us and separates us from Himself.

2 John 1:1-2 (NASB)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] The elder to the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in truth; and not only I, but also all who know the truth,

[SUP]2 [/SUP] for the sake of the truth which abides in us and will be with us forever:

Jesus Himself said that the Holy Spirit will be in us forever when He comes. John 14:16.

Is Jesus now a liar? If He lied about this - then He lied about "all that come to me I will in no wise cast out". And He lied about "No one can pluck you out of My hand nor the Father's hand".

And "All that the Father gives to Me - I will not lose one of them". Again this must be Him lying again to us?

Out hearts are not wired by God to believe in such a "being" that is a liar. This is the reason why "workers for salvation" say that we need to do things in order to remain saved - because their own belief system doesn't believe what Jesus said. Their church teachings have darkened their minds to distort the love of the Father for them.

They all give "lip-service" to Eph. 2:8-9 because they cant get around the truth of the gospel but they reject the finished work of Christ and try to maintain their own salvation by what they do or don't do.

No, Jesus is NOT a liar. He is the Savior of the world and especially of believers just like Paul told Timothy. We are in Christ and He is in us and He said "I will never leave nor forsake you".

Thank you Lord Jesus - we believe and trust ourselves to You alone. We are one spirit with You for all eternity because of your grace in which we believe in what You have done for us because of your great love, grace and mercy.

 

[stonesoffire]

"For the goodness of the Lord causes us to repent. "

2 corinthains 7:10 "For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death

this is what the prodigal experienced. can you possibly show a single scripture that says Knowing God is good causes repentance? 1 verse that makes a statement like this? if the prodiagal had not felt sorry, he would never have went Home. Knowing God is Good, is a good thing, thinking Hes so Good hell never keep His word about sin being judged is not. denying the principles in Gods Word is not good at all. if the prodiagal didnt repent He would never have been welcomed Home.

And he said, A certain man had two sons: 12And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living. 13And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living. 14And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.

15And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. 16And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.

17And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! 18I will arise and go to my father, <<< (this decision changed His life) and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, 19And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.

20And he arose, <<< (this action came from that decision) and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. 21And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

22But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: 23And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: 24For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

Just as paul teaches the prodiagals sorrow is what Led to His repentance and going Home. notice that the prodigals action mattered. though the Father Loved Him before and after He left, the prodigals choice was His own. Both to leave and sell His life on sinful living, and also to come to terms with what His actions were responsable for.... His circumstance. the prodigal turned and began the journey Home because he " came to himself" or realized what He had done and that His father would take Him back as a servant though he was not worthy anymore to be a son.

repentance comes when we stop denying what the word says of it, and after sorrow works repentance. How do you suppose the prodigal felt thinking hed beg His way to be a servant , Yet His Father ran to meet Him hugged and kissed Him was too busy telling His servants to go get the best robe, ring and shoes and have a celebration because His Son came Home, to even care about His plan of explaining his actions? Im thinking He was probably overcome with the depth of His Fathers Love at this point probably broke down in tears of Joy and releif. sorrow for sin leads to Joy and peace when we follow and repent. God is Good now, then and always we still are commanded to repent, nothing anyone can say will ever change whats there.

ive always Known Gods goodness that He Loved me. that doesnt cause repentance though, the sorrow for living contrary to God the Fathers will Knowing He loves us is what works repentance grace is not everything its One principle among many Gods graciousness sent Jesus to us, Jesus had alot to say to us before the cross. if Hes Lord then His word should carry more wieght than anyones.

Luke 13:3 "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.


Gotta actually repent of sin, in order to do that we have to accept what the word says of it, that will bring the godly sorrow required when a person accepts the Word of God, given through the Savior

You said a lot just to make one point. My answer will not be so elaborate. Tell me, would he have gone back if he thought there was no chance of even just being a servant to his father? It was the goodness of the Father that made the change in his son. Before being restored, he only had the hope of a servant.

The goodness of the Lord is restoration after failure. That breaks rebellion.

 

[Zmouth]

They all give "lip-service" to Eph. 2:8-9 because they cant get around the truth of the gospel

1 Cor 14:34-37

What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

If any man be spiritual then let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

• Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

• And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. 1 Cor 14:38

 

[PennEd]

You said a lot just to make one point. My answer will not be so elaborate. Tell me, would he have gone back if he thought there was no chance of even just being a servant to his father? It was the goodness of the Father that made the change in his son. Before being restored, he only had the hope of a servant.

The goodness of the Lord is restoration after failure. That breaks rebellion.

THIS post exemplifies why women SHOULDN'T be quiet!
Beautifully said sister.