The Generations

[shrume]

Luke 3:
23) And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

I do understand your view on Luke 3, as in the last part of the verse points to Joseph, as being son of Heli.

Yes. Scripture plainly and clearly states that Joseph was the son of Heli.

Though here's how I view it, the whole verse is still on the subject of Jesus from the beginning of the verse, 1. Joseph was presumed to father of Jesus this is a profound statement of not knowing if that was true or not, but was the grandson of Heli, 2. the folks that wrote this knew who Mary's father was but wasn't sure about the father of the child, thus the reason why it's mentions as a supposed father. The latter part of the verse is still on the subject of Jesus

The subject is the genealogy of Jesus through Joseph, his "supposed" father. The latter part of the verse explicitly states that Joseph was the son of Heli.

and this is known because Jacob in the previous verses is mentioned as Joseph father

Where?

one can't have two earthly fathers at the same time. A person can have a grandfather but not two fathers.

The "folks who wrote this" was Luke, and he knew exactly who the Father of the child was: God. He also knew that Joseph was the son of Heli.

I truly do not understand why you insist on trying to have the verse mean something other than what it says:

Luke 3:
23) And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

I'm bowing out.

 

[BeyondET]

Yes. Scripture plainly and clearly states that Joseph was the son of Heli.


The subject is the genealogy of Jesus through Joseph, his "supposed" father. The latter part of the verse explicitly states that Joseph was the son of Heli.


Where?


The "folks who wrote this" was Luke, and he knew exactly who the Father of the child was: God. He also knew that Joseph was the son of Heli.

I truly do not understand why you insist on trying to have the verse mean something other than what it says:

Luke 3:
23) And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

I'm bowing out.

No argument from me on that Yes Jesus father is God, always has been always will be.

Luke was a travel companion of Paul, Luke was being taught by others of things that had already been written or spoken

his account is how he taught what he knew to others in that time. Not saying he wasn't inspired to do so but of coarse but to say what he wrote was exclusively from God and not already known isn't the truth.

Well I'm not trying to insist the verse meaning, I just know it how I see it, it's my personal opinion as you have your own personal opinion on it,

To say something other than what is written is something else than just presuming Heli was Jesus grandfather like I have shown this is called a leap of faith Heli the grandfather no doubt, but to have a idea and it disputes other verses is something to look into if that is really a solid logical explanation of who was the father was Joseph.

Here's the verse
Mt1:16
and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.


To go with a idea that Heli was Joseph father one would have change this statement above. Or come up with more and more ideas or theories to try and make it fit.

Again it's food for thought my friend, good day buddy I've enjoyed the conversation and thanks again for the info you supplied greatly appreciated indeed.

 

[shrume]

OK... One more.

No argument from me on that Yes Jesus father is God, always has been always will be.

Luke was a travel companion of Paul, Luke was being taught by others of things that had already been written or spoken

his account is how he taught what he knew to others in that time. Not saying he wasn't inspired to do so but of coarse but to say what he wrote was exclusively from God and not already known isn't the truth.

On that we absolutely do NOT agree. I believe scripture is God-breathed. This includes the gospel of Luke.

Well I'm not trying to insist the verse meaning, I just know it how I see it, it's my personal opinion as you have your own personal opinion on it,

My opinion is formed by reading the verse. The verse STATES that Joseph was the son of Heli.

To say something other than what is written is something else than just presuming Heli was Jesus grandfather like I have shown this is called a leap of faith Heli the grandfather no doubt, but to have a idea and it disputes other verses is something to look into if that is really a solid logical explanation of who was the father was Joseph.

Heli was the father of Joseph, making him Jesus step-grandfather.

Here's the verse
Mt1:16
and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

To go with a idea that Heli was Joseph father one would have change this statement above. Or come up with more and more ideas or theories to try and make it fit.

In Matt 1:16, the word translated "husband" is "aner", and the word simply means "man", an adult human male. An accurate translation would be:

Mt1:16
and Jacob the father of Joseph, the man of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

That is ambiguous, so the translators used the word "husband", primarily because they assumed it was talking about Mary's husband. But that's not possible, because if that Joseph was Mary's husband, there are only 13 generations in the third set of 14. Also, as you noted, Mary's husband Joseph would have two fathers, which is impossible. The Bible does not contradict itself, and I believe it is possible to figure things out.

The Joseph described as the "'man' of Mary" in Matt 1:16 has to be her father. Then the generations add up, and Mary's husband Joseph does not have two fathers. Also, as I stated earlier, in Aramaic translations of Matthew (which some believe was originally written in Hebrew and not Greek), two different words referring to Joseph are used in v16 and v19, indicating two different Josephs. The one in v16 is Mary's father, the one in v19 is her husband.

Again it's food for thought my friend, good day buddy I've enjoyed the conversation and thanks again for the info you supplied greatly appreciated indeed.

God bless!

 

[BeyondET]

OK... One more.

On that we absolutely do NOT agree. I believe scripture is God-breathed. This includes the gospel of Luke.


My opinion is formed by reading the verse. The verse STATES that Joseph was the son of Heli.


Heli was the father of Joseph, making him Jesus step-grandfather.


In Matt 1:16, the word translated "husband" is "aner", and the word simply means "man", an adult human male. An accurate translation would be:

Mt1:16
and Jacob the father of Joseph, the man of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

That is ambiguous, so the translators used the word "husband", primarily because they assumed it was talking about Mary's husband. But that's not possible, because if that Joseph was Mary's husband, there are only 13 generations in the third set of 14. Also, as you noted, Mary's husband Joseph would have two fathers, which is impossible. The Bible does not contradict itself, and I believe it is possible to figure things out.

The Joseph described as the "'man' of Mary" in Matt 1:16 has to be her father. Then the generations add up, and Mary's husband Joseph does not have two fathers. Also, as I stated earlier, in Aramaic translations of Matthew (which some believe was originally written in Hebrew and not Greek), two different words referring to Joseph are used in v16 and v19, indicating two different Josephs. The one in v16 is Mary's father, the one in v19 is her husband.


God bless!

If that is the case then what about the Joseph that a angel came to in a dream or the one that took Mary while pregnant to Bethlehem, or the Joseph that took Mary to Egypt and return. Or the parents of Jesus they went to Jerusalem each year for the festivals

I don't see a problem with Mary getting married to Joseph just a man and taking care of Mary while he was still living.

Was the man Mary's father, going to take Mary into his home and call her wife, that doesn't make sense to me.

is the word wife also miss interpreted?

Mt1:20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

 

[BeyondET]

These generations line up as they should be, as long as one knows that King David was the 14th blood line generation from Abraham and also the 1st generation king Of the symbolic generation mentioned in Matthew. David was 14th gen and 1st gen at the same time one being of blood line the other being kingship line.

Anything else causes things to get out of hand quick IMO.

 

[shrume]

If that is the case then what about the Joseph that a angel came to in a dream or the one that took Mary while pregnant to Bethlehem, or the Joseph that took Mary to Egypt and return. Or the parents of Jesus they went to Jerusalem each year for the festivals

What about him? It's obviously speaking of Mary's husband.

I don't see a problem with Mary getting married to Joseph just a man and taking care of Mary while he was still living.

Neither do I.

Was the man Mary's father, going to take Mary into his home and call her wife, that doesn't make sense to me.

Me either.

is the word wife also miss interpreted?

No.

Mt1:20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

Am I really being so obtuse that you cannot grasp what I am saying?

If so, I apologize. But I don't know how to state it any simpler.

Maybe I'll catch you in some other thread.

 

[shrume]

These generations line up as they should be, as long as one knows that King David was the 14th blood line generation from Abraham and also the 1st generation king Of the symbolic generation mentioned in Matthew. David was 14th gen and 1st gen at the same time one being of blood line the other being kingship line.

Anything else causes things to get out of hand quick IMO.

The three groups of 14 generations line up as they should when you understand that the Joseph in Matt 1:16 is Mary's father and not her husband. If the Joseph in Matt 1:16 is Mary's husband, then there are only 13 generations in the third group.

Later, BeyondET.

 

[BeyondET]

What about him? It's obviously speaking of Mary's husband.


Neither do I.


Me either.


No.



Am I really being so obtuse that you cannot grasp what I am saying?

If so, I apologize. But I don't know how to state it any simpler.

Maybe I'll catch you in some other thread.

hehehe, interesting statement I feel the same as you,

Cya again my friend.

 

[BeyondET]

This is humorous Joseph was the son of David,

Mt1:20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

 

[stonesoffire]

Hey beyond, how you doing?

I am doing a little word study and saw this interesting thing. Jacob, one who laid in wait to supplant his brothers inheritance, was father to Joseph, who added another "way" of inheritance, was father to Jesus, who is salvation from Mary, bitterness and rebellion.

Jacob-deception
Mary-rebellion
Joseph-redemption
Jesus-salvation

 

[Kavik]

In post #43 - "man of Mary". In many languages, 'man' is synonymous with 'husband'. German: 'Mein Mann ist nicht zu Hause' - My husband is not home (but literally 'man'). Conversely, 'woman' is synonymous with 'wife, spouse'. French, "Ma famme..." 'my wife...'.

"Joseph, son of David" would just be a reference to Joseph being from the house of/ the line of David. Like calling a Medieval king as part of his title "son of Charlemagne" (even though there could be 100 generations between the two - still an ancestor).

 

[BeyondET]

Hey beyond, how you doing?

I am doing a little word study and saw this interesting thing. Jacob, one who laid in wait to supplant his brothers inheritance, was father to Joseph, who added another "way" of inheritance, was father to Jesus, who is salvation from Mary, bitterness and rebellion.

Jacob-deception
Mary-rebellion
Joseph-redemption
Jesus-salvation

Hey stonesoffire Thanks for the addition, I'm completely enjoying these teachings folks are bringing to this thread about the generations and this is another fine example you've mentioned of hidden mystery/gems that can be found within the genealogy.

I will be honest and say once I had thought that the genealogy chapter per say was blah unimportant not much to see in the way of teaching can come from it, but since of lately I've been looking more into this, but I've come to know now how vastly wrong I was about these teachings, on the surface the genealogy appears to be blah, kind of mundane, simple, but that's exactly in my view how God works, God can use the most simplest of things the smallest of Detail, to bring the most informative of things,

the genealogy in my opinion is no different. For those who really enjoy seeking out hidden mysteries the hidden gems within scripture , the genealogy is one of those cream of crop learnings IMO, packed full of hidden mysteries and understandings/knowledge. There is a lot to be known from these generations, and that reminds me of a parable Jesus spoke about a man lying in the street and everyone just pass on by.

I have not seen a whole lot of teaching on the genealogy surely not many threads are created about it. But hey I guess knowledge is in the eyes of the beholder, not everyone is into to knowing the small details the hidden mysteries that's quite ok people don't have to be mystery seekers per say, for me I completely enjoy finding these, and for others I'm sure find complete joy in things that are plainly insight on the surface.

Though I'm a firm believer that not every teaching in the bible is going to handed to us on a silver plater, there is a seek and you shall find aspect to the bible. Sorry for rambling on for a moment, but I just had to say it, I springboard a little, lol

On to what you mentioned above I think I'm understanding what you mean about the redemption and salvation statements. though I'm not quite seeing what you mean on the other two, please explain that if you can in more detail, no doubt I want to learn more about it as wel as through others about this topic that they have learned of it, the genealogy.

Again Thanks a bunch for the additional teachings you've posted indeed, and please continue on these meanings you mentioned and others as well.

 

[BeyondET]

In post #43 - "man of Mary". In many languages, 'man' is synonymous with 'husband'. German: 'Mein Mann ist nicht zu Hause' - My husband is not home (but literally 'man'). Conversely, 'woman' is synonymous with 'wife, spouse'. French, "Ma famme..." 'my wife...'.

"Joseph, son of David" would just be a reference to Joseph being from the house of/ the line of David. Like calling a Medieval king as part of his title "son of Charlemagne" (even though there could be 100 generations between the two - still an ancestor).

Thank you for adding this, it's a great topic of interest indeed,

I agree with you about the statement the angel said to "Joseph son of David" in that it was a symbolic gesture, this is known because it is explained why later on in the account, Joseph goes to Bethlehem to register for the census because Joseph is of the linage of the house of David.

now in my view all the generations after David are technically sons of David this is true because the Angel said so of Joseph, then if the Angel visited each generation then each one individually would be called a son of David, like so "Heli son of David". Levi son of David, But collectively they all are sons of David.

If a person didn't know of that part and only knew what the Angel had said to Joseph and the account in the geno that Joseph was the son of Jacob, a person might say how can this be what's up with that something isn't lining up here, a person can't have two earthly fathers at the same time.

Yesterday me and another was debating about this statement in the genealogy, ( Joseph which was a son Heli) interesting enough the poster believes it is a literal statement that the Joseph mentioned is the son of Heli, on the surface it may appear that way, but by using the example already given in scripture about the same guy Joseph in question and how symbolic statements are used in the bible, then one can see it as well as yet another symbolic statement. "Joseph a son of Heli"

That being said ironically I now agree with the poster, Yes (Joseph a son of Heli) but not in a literal sense but of a honory symbolic gesture, it is the younger generation showing homage to the older generation when linking the two generations back together, Solomon was born after Nathan so the Nathan generations are of older generations and as well the rightly King was born in Bethlehem from that older generation.

Thus it wouldn't be written as such of honoring that. Joseph which was a son Heli, and why because Jesus was born of Mary who is from that linage side of the family, and yes I still believe this person Heli was Mary's father in the literal sense.

 

[BeyondET]

Arrg typo, would be written as such,

 

[stonesoffire]

Hey beyond, how you doing?

I am doing a little word study and saw this interesting thing. Jacob, one who laid in wait to supplant his brothers inheritance, was father to Joseph, who added another "way" of inheritance, was father to Jesus, who is salvation from Mary, bitterness and rebellion.

Jacob-deception
Mary-rebellion
Joseph-redemption
Jesus-salvation

Jacob simply means heel grabber. He took hold of Esau's heel in the womb during birth to keep him from being the first born. The firstborn always gets the inheritance of the father. It's a picture of the nature of man. Fortunately for him it wasn't his final name. He is changed to Israel, which means he rules as God.


I put Mary next rather than Joseph just because Joseph didn't have that father role in Jesus's conception. Mary means bitterness and rebellion...another picture of carnal men and women who have never been born again. We are rebellious towards God in our natural man until we obey which is belief in the plan of redemption of Father for His lost creation.

Joseph means added. His role is protection of both Mary /mankind, and Jesus/ salvation. Redemption beginning for the world.

And Yeshu...whose very name in Hebrew means salvation. Which as I've said before...every time anyone says Lord save me...they are calling on His name.

Love to BET

J

also..I agree with you...we can find gems everywhere in scripture. It's Holy Spirit who points them out.

 

[BeyondET]

Jacob simply means heel grabber. He took hold of Esau's heel in the womb during birth to keep him from being the first born. The firstborn always gets the inheritance of the father. It's a picture of the nature of man. Fortunately for him it wasn't his final name. He is changed to Israel, which means he rules as God.


I put Mary next rather than Joseph just because Joseph didn't have that father role in Jesus's conception. Mary means bitterness and rebellion...another picture of carnal men and women who have never been born again. We are rebellious towards God in our natural man until we obey which is belief in the plan of redemption of Father for His lost creation.

Joseph means added. His role is protection of both Mary /mankind, and Jesus/ salvation. Redemption beginning for the world.

And Yeshu...whose very name in Hebrew means salvation. Which as I've said before...every time anyone says Lord save me...they are calling on His name.

Love to BET

J

also..I agree with you...we can find gems everywhere in scripture. It's Holy Spirit who points them out.

yes I agree the names in the genealogy have symbolic meanings and as well gems of information.

There are twelve generations after David that share the same name, liitle things like that I find cool.

Er
means "watcher"

 

[stonesoffire]

I didn't know er means watcher. Where would watcher be found then? Shepherds?

 

[BeyondET]

I didn't know er means watcher. Where would watcher be found then? Shepherds?

That's one, there's around 14 or so statements about watch in scripture.

 

[stonesoffire]

That's one, there's around 14 or so statements about watch in scripture.

I shall be searching this out when I get offline. got a bee in me bonnet laddie..

 

[BeyondET]

I shall be searching this out when I get offline. got a bee in me bonnet laddie..

As well my new studies are on more of these name meanings of some of these generations that are only mentioned in the genealogy yet from those meanings, I believe can lead to even more learnings indeed.

On the topic of watcher, heres another,

Matthew 26:38
Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me."