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What has any of this got to do with judging someone?
The conversation has 2 sides - one which says once saved always saved, the other that says salvation can be forfeited.
So I present 2 examples, one hypothetical the other real, and ask ok according to the 2 sides where would someone like this stand?
Do you mean that we can carry on a conversation about how scripture affects people, as long as we don't try to actually surmise how scripture affects specific people?
The conversation has 2 sides - one which says once saved always saved, the other that says salvation can be forfeited.
So I present 2 examples, one hypothetical the other real, and ask ok according to the 2 sides where would someone like this stand?
Do you mean that we can carry on a conversation about how scripture affects people, as long as we don't try to actually surmise how scripture affects specific people?
i have similar experience, my prayer group leader, was great Christian, he witnessing to almost every body he meet, he burn his brothers Beatles tape, he do not want other than gospel music. Than he went to USA for studi business, back from US he operate one of his uncle business, Mercedes auto dealer, AS a non Christian. Back than, he always talk about Jesus, he repent from Christianity. His relative that also study from US say, US university are secular humanism change him.
I would like to know book, chapter and verse that says someone cannot discern the salvation of another through the leading of the Holy Spirit....
A sad, sad example of a great man of God turning apostate is Charles Templeton....The OSAS camp will even say this former Man of God was never saved to begin with.....
A sad, sad example of a great man of God turning apostate is Charles Templeton....The OSAS camp will even say this former Man of God was never saved to begin with.....
You are reading into the scripture that this is speaking of salvation when in context it is speaking of sanctification. Strive to walk with the Lord in holiness and not to walk so as to cast shame upon the Lord.
Don't ever think that a soul purchased by Christ from sin can once again be lost and under condemnation.
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Don't ever think that a soul purchased by Christ from sin can once again be lost and under condemnation.
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Here is the complete passage....now you guys won't look at it, because it talks about something you guys do not think your are...free from sin....
[SUP]20 [/SUP]When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the obligation to do right. [SUP]21 [/SUP]And what was the result? You are now ashamed of the things you used to do, things that end in eternal doom. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But now you are free from the power of sin and have become slaves of God. Now you do those things that lead to holiness and result in eternal life. [SUP]23 [/SUP]For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.
how would you define this....
[SUP]20 [/SUP]When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the obligation to do right. [SUP]21 [/SUP]And what was the result? You are now ashamed of the things you used to do, things that end in eternal doom. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But now you are free from the power of sin and have become slaves of God. Now you do those things that lead to holiness and result in eternal life. [SUP]23 [/SUP]For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.
how would you define this....
This is addressing the truth that no one can receive Jesus Christ again. You cannot become unsaved. You cannot crucify Him again to save yourself because you cannot become unsaved. That was why it started with not doing the things you did when you first got saved... to do it again as if you need to be saved again after falling away or backsliding into sin.
Jesus Christ can never leave you. That is why we are warned not to grieve the Holy Spirit in us that we have been "sealed" by unto that day of redemption.
Ephesians 4:[SUP]30 [/SUP]And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
So read that truth of Ephesians 4:30 as you read the verses below in understanding that this is about deferring believers into thinking that they need to receive Jesus Christ "again" when He still abides in them no matter what, but one can sow to the works of the flesh and defile the temple of God for which God would destroy that defiled body with physical death, unless they repent.
Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,[SUP] 2 [/SUP]Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.[SUP] 3 [/SUP]And this will we do, if God permit.[SUP] 4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,[SUP] 5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,[SUP] 6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:[SUP] 8 [/SUP]But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.[SUP]9 [/SUP]But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
So if you read 1 Corinthians 3:10-17, you will see how God will judge every believer by what they have sown on that foundation which is why the call is given out to believers to look to Jesus Christ, trusting Him as their Good Shepherd to help them discern iniquity and depart from them so as to be abiding in Him and being willing to go when the Bridegroom comes or risk being found in iniquity and be left behind at the pre trib rapture event to be resurrected after the great tribulation to be received as vessels unto dishonor in His House.
1 Corinthians 3:[SUP]10 [/SUP]According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.[SUP] 11 [/SUP]For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.[SUP] 12 [/SUP]Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;[SUP]13 [/SUP]Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.[SUP]14 [/SUP]If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.[SUP] 15 [/SUP]If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.[SUP]16 [/SUP]Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?[SUP]17 [/SUP]If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
The wood, stubble, and hay defiles the temple of God; also known as thorns & briers of Hebrews 6:8 that needs to be burned up which are the works of the flesh which is why believers & even former believers are constantly called to lean on Him to depart from iniquity so as to be received as vessels unto honor in His House to attend the Marriage Supper.
2 Timothy 2:[SUP]18 [/SUP]Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.[SUP] 19 [/SUP]Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.[SUP] 20 [/SUP]But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.[SUP]21 [/SUP]If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
1 John 3:[SUP]3 [/SUP]And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.....[SUP]8 [/SUP]He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Galatians 6:[SUP]7 [/SUP]Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.[SUP]8 [/SUP]For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Galatians 5:[SUP]19 [/SUP]Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,[SUP]20 [/SUP]Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,[SUP]21 [/SUP]Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,[SUP]23 [/SUP]Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.[SUP]24 [/SUP]And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.[SUP]25 [/SUP]If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.[SUP]26 [/SUP]Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
Philippians 1:[SUP]6 [/SUP]Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:[SUP] 7 [/SUP]Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace.[SUP] 8 [/SUP]For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ.[SUP] 9 [/SUP]And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;[SUP]10 [/SUP]That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.[SUP]11 [/SUP]Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.
2 Timothy 4:[SUP]18 [/SUP]And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Jude 1:[SUP]24 [/SUP]Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,[SUP]25 [/SUP]To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
So Hebrews 6 is addressing ALL believers that they need not go through all that again to "renew" themselves or save themselves again and to know that Jesus Christ is in them for ever, BUT that they need to rely on Him as their Good Shepherd ALL the time to discern & depart from iniquity to get rid of the briers & thorns so as to be ready to go when the Bridegroom comes at the pre trib rapture event when God shall judge His House first.
Jesus Christ can never leave you. That is why we are warned not to grieve the Holy Spirit in us that we have been "sealed" by unto that day of redemption.
Ephesians 4:[SUP]30 [/SUP]And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
So read that truth of Ephesians 4:30 as you read the verses below in understanding that this is about deferring believers into thinking that they need to receive Jesus Christ "again" when He still abides in them no matter what, but one can sow to the works of the flesh and defile the temple of God for which God would destroy that defiled body with physical death, unless they repent.
Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,[SUP] 2 [/SUP]Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.[SUP] 3 [/SUP]And this will we do, if God permit.[SUP] 4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,[SUP] 5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,[SUP] 6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:[SUP] 8 [/SUP]But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.[SUP]9 [/SUP]But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
So if you read 1 Corinthians 3:10-17, you will see how God will judge every believer by what they have sown on that foundation which is why the call is given out to believers to look to Jesus Christ, trusting Him as their Good Shepherd to help them discern iniquity and depart from them so as to be abiding in Him and being willing to go when the Bridegroom comes or risk being found in iniquity and be left behind at the pre trib rapture event to be resurrected after the great tribulation to be received as vessels unto dishonor in His House.
1 Corinthians 3:[SUP]10 [/SUP]According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.[SUP] 11 [/SUP]For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.[SUP] 12 [/SUP]Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;[SUP]13 [/SUP]Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.[SUP]14 [/SUP]If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.[SUP] 15 [/SUP]If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.[SUP]16 [/SUP]Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?[SUP]17 [/SUP]If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
The wood, stubble, and hay defiles the temple of God; also known as thorns & briers of Hebrews 6:8 that needs to be burned up which are the works of the flesh which is why believers & even former believers are constantly called to lean on Him to depart from iniquity so as to be received as vessels unto honor in His House to attend the Marriage Supper.
2 Timothy 2:[SUP]18 [/SUP]Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.[SUP] 19 [/SUP]Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.[SUP] 20 [/SUP]But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.[SUP]21 [/SUP]If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
1 John 3:[SUP]3 [/SUP]And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.....[SUP]8 [/SUP]He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Galatians 6:[SUP]7 [/SUP]Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.[SUP]8 [/SUP]For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Galatians 5:[SUP]19 [/SUP]Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,[SUP]20 [/SUP]Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,[SUP]21 [/SUP]Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,[SUP]23 [/SUP]Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.[SUP]24 [/SUP]And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.[SUP]25 [/SUP]If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.[SUP]26 [/SUP]Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
Philippians 1:[SUP]6 [/SUP]Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:[SUP] 7 [/SUP]Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, ye all are partakers of my grace.[SUP] 8 [/SUP]For God is my record, how greatly I long after you all in the bowels of Jesus Christ.[SUP] 9 [/SUP]And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;[SUP]10 [/SUP]That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.[SUP]11 [/SUP]Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.
2 Timothy 4:[SUP]18 [/SUP]And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Jude 1:[SUP]24 [/SUP]Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,[SUP]25 [/SUP]To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
So Hebrews 6 is addressing ALL believers that they need not go through all that again to "renew" themselves or save themselves again and to know that Jesus Christ is in them for ever, BUT that they need to rely on Him as their Good Shepherd ALL the time to discern & depart from iniquity to get rid of the briers & thorns so as to be ready to go when the Bridegroom comes at the pre trib rapture event when God shall judge His House first.
Amen sister....yeppers got me my insurance card and now I just sit back and passively let Christ work in me to grow spiritually...
Funny thing about that idiotic idea....I have never seen a human or animal grow and mature by eating passive food....
This is the leaven of eternal security.....and its even worse now that the grace movement has moved in and made impossible to even have conversations about spiritual growth....
Funny thing about that idiotic idea....I have never seen a human or animal grow and mature by eating passive food....
This is the leaven of eternal security.....and its even worse now that the grace movement has moved in and made impossible to even have conversations about spiritual growth....
E
Your asking us to determine the salvation of a person, whether a real person or not. And I hope n one is ready to do this.
Even if we tried, we could be wrong, would you want to do this? I would not want to falsely accuse someone (although I know many here do not care about that.)
As I said when you or someone asked a few days, there are two possible answers,
1. They guy literally rejects Christ and no longer believes, in which case he is an antichrist, and accordinbg to the apostle John, He was never saved to begin with
2. Something happened in his life, and he is angry, or like Peter.. Some situation has occurred so he will not openly profess he knows Christ,
If he was save, HE IS STILL SAVED. God does not take back his gifts..
WHat is not possible, Is the person was saved, Given an inheritance God said is incorruptible, and will never fade away, Given the seal of the spirit. Give ETERNAL life. Give salvation and justification based on GRACE, ADOPTED as a child of God. and everything a child of God receives when he is born again, then lost it..
If he could, he would have to be unborn, unadopted, unsealed, his eternal life was not eternal but conditional, His inheritance faded away, it was corruptible (it was dependent on something he did, he had power and control. not God) etc etc.
Even if we tried, we could be wrong, would you want to do this? I would not want to falsely accuse someone (although I know many here do not care about that.)
As I said when you or someone asked a few days, there are two possible answers,
1. They guy literally rejects Christ and no longer believes, in which case he is an antichrist, and accordinbg to the apostle John, He was never saved to begin with
2. Something happened in his life, and he is angry, or like Peter.. Some situation has occurred so he will not openly profess he knows Christ,
If he was save, HE IS STILL SAVED. God does not take back his gifts..
WHat is not possible, Is the person was saved, Given an inheritance God said is incorruptible, and will never fade away, Given the seal of the spirit. Give ETERNAL life. Give salvation and justification based on GRACE, ADOPTED as a child of God. and everything a child of God receives when he is born again, then lost it..
If he could, he would have to be unborn, unadopted, unsealed, his eternal life was not eternal but conditional, His inheritance faded away, it was corruptible (it was dependent on something he did, he had power and control. not God) etc etc.
