Not By Works

Meggido · Aug 3, 2017

There is a difference between the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God...very few get it...when they do.... they then begin to understand fully that the kingdom is not a democracy, republic or statehood....or weekend visits...

He wants all of you or not any of you.....he wants full time custody not weekend visits...

BillG · Aug 3, 2017

JIMBO43 said:

I am not sure if they were bought as slaves but they certainly became part of the community of Israel.

JIMBO43 · Aug 3, 2017

BillG said:

yup and they got to believing a messiah was on his way

BillG · Aug 3, 2017

JIMBO43 said:

one would hope so.
The great patriarchs saw it and knew it.

Alas the Pharisees used it for their own gain and distorted the intent of the law given by God.

FranC · Aug 3, 2017

BillG said:

You say the NC is unconditional but you post that it is.
You have often posted that obedience is required to stay saved.

The NC is UNCONDITIONAL.
God requires obedience. It's not what I SAY. It's what God says. It's what Jesus says.
Just because we're in an unconditional covenant - which means that GOD will see it through, not that if we're in it we could sin.
We all agree that it is not a license to sin.

So, if we're not sinning, we're obeying.
JESUS said that if a tree does not bear fruit, the branches are cut off, they wither and die and are thrown into the fire and burned.
Mathew 7:13-23

JESUS said in Mathew 7:23 that those who practice lawlessness will have to depart from Him.
God does not want sinners in His presence.
We have to watch what we say.
Did you read what Stone said just above? She said we don't have to obey God's Laws in His Kingdom !
This is what we get when we have hyper grace taught. We lose sight of our obligation toward God.
God has not changed. He's the same Yesterday, today and Tomorrow. He still demands obedience.
He offers us life or Death. He tells us to chose LIFE.

The OC was also conditional.
Keep My commands and I will bless you.
Sins and disobedience was covered by various sacrifices.

What do you mean by "we have to accept the sign of the baptism?

Every covenant has a sign.
Adamic: Angels with flaming sword
Noahic: Rainbow
Abrahamic: Circumcision
Mosaic: Sabbath
Davidic: No sign but a symbol: The Throne
New Cov: Baptism (some theologians believe it's the Eucharist)

Each covenant also has a seal.
The seal for the NC is the blood of Jesus.

So if we come to believe in Jesus, we should accept the sign of baptism.
Just as the Hebrews acceped circumcision, we accept baptism. It's a sign that we believe.

Do you believe unless we are baptised then we are not part of the NC? If not then is internal transformation negated.
You have said when baptised we receive the Holy Spirit.

You are part of the NC when you believe in Jesus. He did, however tell the Apostels to baptize. Mathew 28:19
For empowerment. We should be baptized.

My 14 year old daughter has not been baptised, but believes in Jesus. Does she not have the Holy Spirit in her?

She has the Holy Spirit but when one is baptized they receive the indwelling and power of the Holy Spirit.
There is the baptism of belief, the baptism of fire --- The one who comes after me will baptize with fire...

You posted earlier

Romans 1:19-20
19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

My guess is that such people are not baptised. Not heard of Jesus and what he has asked of us.

Are they still saved having not been baptised?

Yes.

Comments?

FranC · Aug 3, 2017

Meggido said:

This is true.

The Kingdom of God is a real Kingdom.
It has Laws.
God expects us to keep them.

If I want to live in New York, I have to follow the Laws of New York.
Ditto for the Kingdom of God.

Also, do we here understand that as SONS OF GOD, He expects MORE from us, not less...

Who would you expect more from:
A Son
or
An employee?

Who would you be more disappointed with if he let you down?
§A son
or
An employee?

A son, of course.

PeterJens · Aug 3, 2017

BillG said:

I think the way this is being said expresses a different emphasis..
A covenant with the Lord is not like an agreement between strangers.
God is saying this is how you gain my favour, these agreements compromise the level of ones
revelations and understanding with the requirements.

So God has not changed, His covenants express our failure and the closeness we have to who
He is. So the new covenant is that much deeper and more profound.

Jesus through the cross expresses His heart, His desire to love and express our lostness and who
He is, how He works, what His desires are, and with whom He desires to have fellowship with.

His ways are sincere, honest openness, working with who we are at a fundamental level, where we
rarely go, and which we fear to express because we fear exploitation and hurt.

If we cannot rise above the rule keeps, the sinners and fakers, the hypocrites and posers, those who
want to con for their own gain, then we will never know Him.

So this has never been about conditions, or small print, but about brutal honesty, do you know what
love is, and do you want to know God who is love where it hurts, love where you lose everything but
gain life, putting a hope and a reality in the dirtiest and most lost situations to bring out something for
eternity.

If rules impact people and condemn them, they have not begun to grasp who the creator actually is.
Rules are just warnings of consequences that cannot be avoided and that destroy the sinner.

BillG · Aug 3, 2017

FranC said:

The only comment I will make is with regard to the NC.

You say that the NC is unconditional but we must obey because God says it is, therefore it is conditional.
Not sinning and we are obeying.
please quantify and qualify?

You say the NC is sealed by the blood of Jesus.
Therefore it's not sealed by water baptism.

Who did Jesus tell to go and baptise?
If memory serves me it was his Jewish disciples.

What does Paul say about baptism. The guy who took the gospel to the Gentiles?
How many did he baptise?

You say Baptised in the baptism of fire. Not water then?

With regards to the bible verse you mentioned

Matthew 28:19
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Doesnt say anything about empowerment.

The seal of the NC is belief in Jesus for the forgiveness of sins based on death in the cross.
Its not sealed by baptism.

Now I would say that truly out of this obedience will follow and WE LEARN OBEDIENCE

JIMBO43 · Aug 3, 2017

BillG said:

no like us of our new convenant we break it..we have more of a chance of abiding in his convenant now but thats as far as it goes for me billy lad..

in genesis its clearly states break the convenant and your out..... in the new testement ot clearly states dont bare fruit and your out.....

same then as it is now.. just a diffrent order.. and ive herd all the jazz no one could do it.. God still forgave them when they couldnt keep it... just like now.... the diffrence is no diffrence at all God forgives in the new testement and hopes you stop sinning..

Same god now same rules..

FranC · Aug 3, 2017

BillG said:

The only comment I will make is with regard to the NC.

You say that the NC is unconditional but we must obey because God says it is, therefore it is conditional.
Not sinning and we are obeying.
please quantify and qualify?

You say the NC is sealed by the blood of Jesus.
Therefore it's not sealed by water baptism.

Who did Jesus tell to go and baptise?
If memory serves me it was his Jewish disciples.

What does Paul say about baptism. The guy who took the gospel to the Gentiles?
How many did he baptise?

You say Baptised in the baptism of fire. Not water then?

With regards to the bible verse you mentioned

Matthew 28:19
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Doesnt say anything about empowerment.

The seal of the NC is belief in Jesus for the forgiveness of sins based on death in the cross.
Its not sealed by baptism.

Now I would say that truly out of this obedience will follow and WE LEARN OBEDIENCE

Tomorrow Bill.
You know what time it is here...

I will say that this is why much is misunderstood.

I mean, do you think I said that Jesus' baptism is with actual fire???

Night.

FranC · Aug 3, 2017

JIMBO43 said:

Absolutely right.
royalscott never answered as to the difference.

I'll tell you the difference between the OC and the NC.

God wants the same obedience.

In the OC it could not be done.
In the NC it COULD be done.

WHY???

(That's the difference)

BillG · Aug 3, 2017

FranC said:

Nope I was just asking what you meant by baptism of fire.

Late here as well.

Got man flu.

Sleep well precious sister.

Much love and grace to you.

JIMBO43 · Aug 3, 2017

FranC said:

why indeed its because your baring His grace and carrying his honor.. and because its our nature once you come to the father and the son.. they could achieve in the old testement.. thats why many of them where saved when Jesus went and preached to them..

notuptome · Aug 3, 2017

FranC said:

Christ fulfilled the law in the NC. There is no more work for righteousness sake.

The law could only ever condemn it could never redeem.

OC and NC God deals with men by grace through faith not by works.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

FranC · Aug 3, 2017

PeterJens said:

I think the way this is being said expresses a different emphasis..
A covenant with the Lord is not like an agreement between strangers.
God is saying this is how you gain my favour, these agreements compromise the level of ones
revelations and understanding with the requirements.

So God has not changed, His covenants express our failure and the closeness we have to who
He is. So the new covenant is that much deeper and more profound.

Jesus through the cross expresses His heart, His desire to love and express our lostness and who
He is, how He works, what His desires are, and with whom He desires to have fellowship with.

His ways are sincere, honest openness, working with who we are at a fundamental level, where we
rarely go, and which we fear to express because we fear exploitation and hurt.

If we cannot rise above the rule keeps, the sinners and fakers, the hypocrites and posers, those who
want to con for their own gain, then we will never know Him.

So this has never been about conditions, or small print, but about brutal honesty, do you know what
love is, and do you want to know God who is love where it hurts, love where you lose everything but
gain life, putting a hope and a reality in the dirtiest and most lost situations to bring out something for
eternity.

If rules impact people and condemn them, they have not begun to grasp who the creator actually is.
Rules are just warnings of consequences that cannot be avoided and that destroy the sinner.

With other humans we make Contracts.
With God we make Covenants.

With other humans we make Promises.
With God we make Oaths.

It's good to know the difference...

FranC · Aug 3, 2017

notuptome said:

This is not the right answer.
Look it up and let us know Tomorrow...

JIMBO43 · Aug 3, 2017

FranC said:

dont forget to rep me.. i like the reps makes me feel proud

and boastfull to hehe

sevenseas · Aug 3, 2017

BillG said:

nope

if anything, you are adding to what I wrote and I agree with what you wrote

and I'll point out the disastrous teaching that has been posted in some threads here lately (maybe before, but I only came across it about a week or so ago) that we do not need to forgive to be forgiven. apparently Jesus said those words during old testament covenant and now we are in the new covenant

what makes sense (things have to make sense in God's economy. they have to line up with His revealed word. they have to fit in with what He says) is that we come to Him empty handed. we need forgiveness and He gives it. thereafter, as we grow in Christ we learn about all that He both asks and commands

we need to forgive as we have been forgiven. someone asked me, and I think it's a legitimate question, if we don't forgive, are we then not saved...reflecting on the words of Jesus about being thrown to the tormentors, we have the parable of the unfaithful servant who is forgiven a huge debt and then goes after a smaller debt that someone owes him (people can read that for reference but you sound like you know about it already...anyway)

now that can be debated until the cows come home to the barn that we never built, but I think the point is we need to forgive because Jesus said so. we need to leave our 'gift'...which is worship...at the altar and be reconciled. this can even be between us and God. if someone is dead and they harmed us greatly, we can't very well be reconciled. in some cases we need to forgive but also need to break off relationship with the one harming us over and over

so we can play that song in the background and dance around the tree all night which is what I don't want to do and it would be awful to do so, because as these silly debates continue, we loose sight of what is simply said and start splitting hairs and becoming personal to the point of 'I don't like your dimples'

you are probably tired of reading this by now, but I'm also writing for those who question what I wrote and how you responded.

my question for you (if you got this far haha) is that I am not sure what you questioned in my last sentence?

Hatchy3 · Aug 3, 2017

God bless you brother, it's by Grace we are saved, not by works. Otherwise we could say we saved ourselves lol.

Seohce · Aug 3, 2017

Ariel82 said:

Malachi 2:17 The Day of Judgment You have wearied the Lord with your words. “How have we wearied him?” you ask. By saying, “All who do evil are good in the eyes of the Lord, and he is pleased with them” or “Where is the God of justice?”

Malachi 3:13-18 “You have said harsh things against me,” says the Lord. “Yet you ask, ‘What have we said against you?’ “You have said, ‘It is futile to serve God. What did we gain by carrying out his requirements and going about like mourners before the Lord Almighty? But now we call the arrogant blessed. Certainly the evildoers prosper, and even those who challenge God escape.’” Then those who feared the Lord talked with each other, and the Lord listened and heard. A scroll of remembrance was written in his presence concerning those who feared the Lord and honored his name. “They will be mine,” says the Lord Almighty, “in the day when I make up my treasured possession. I will spare them, just as in compassion a man spares his son who serves him. And you will again see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between those who serve God and those who do not.

1 John 3:16-18 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.

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