-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Many unbelievers who are mixed up in various false religions and cults use the Word of God and turn it into a lie through their interpretation of it as well.
In James 2:19, nobody is questioning the fact that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation and neither do unbelievers.
Absolutely, but it is mainly those the follow that teachings and traditions of man over the Word of God
They twist and cherry pick the scriptures so they do not have to follow what God says.
Last edited:
Absolutely, but it is mainly those the follow that teachings and traditions of man over the Word of God
you shouldn't be so hard on yourself. you will gradually learn,
God is so great!
Its only because God so loved us that he gave us His only begotten son that as we believe on Him we should not perish but have everlasting life. We only love him because He first loved us. The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with loving kindness have I drawn thee because God commended his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Let all those that seek thee rejoice and be glad in thee: let such as love thy salvation say continually, The LORD be magnified. Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. God is love and whosoever keeps his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected. Now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. If you love me keep my commandments.
God bless you all
Its only because God so loved us that he gave us His only begotten son that as we believe on Him we should not perish but have everlasting life. We only love him because He first loved us. The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with loving kindness have I drawn thee because God commended his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Let all those that seek thee rejoice and be glad in thee: let such as love thy salvation say continually, The LORD be magnified. Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. God is love and whosoever keeps his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected. Now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. If you love me keep my commandments.
God bless you all
Yes....we can see this in action that people cherry pick and twist the scriptures when they say that Christians who are not under the law of Moses need to observe the Sabbath day as outlined in the Old Testament or they are sinning and dis-obeying God.
These "twisters" that try to put Christians back under the Law and desert Christ Himself for their law keeping and Paul was vehemently opposed to this Judaizing spirit - they don't really keep the law concerning the Sabbath as in the Old Testament because they need to be stoning those that don't keep the Sabbath in the Old Covenant way.
Paul said that he didn't allow this subjection for even one hour - so that the truth of the gospel would remain with the Galatians.
Galatians 2:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5[/SUP] But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.
These "twisters" that try to put Christians back under the Law and desert Christ Himself for their law keeping and Paul was vehemently opposed to this Judaizing spirit - they don't really keep the law concerning the Sabbath as in the Old Testament because they need to be stoning those that don't keep the Sabbath in the Old Covenant way.
Paul said that he didn't allow this subjection for even one hour - so that the truth of the gospel would remain with the Galatians.
Galatians 2:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5[/SUP] But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.
By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon
God bless
God bless
they believe is from their heart, but yes the target is not right, they suppose believe Jesus AS savior instead of miracle Maker.
I find it interesting that the term "fall away" was used by the Lord Jesus of His 11 disciples at the time of His arrest. The disciples deserted Jesus as was predicted and Peter obviously denied Jesus three times. They were said to "fall away."
Matthew 26:31 - Then Jesus said to them, "You will all fall away because of Me this night, for it is written, 'I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP OF THE FLOCK SHALL BE SCATTERED.' 32 "But after I have been raised, I will go ahead of you to Galilee." 33 But Peter said to Him, "Even though all may fall away because of You, I will never fall away."
Obviously, this was not a loss of salvation. For a righteous man may fall seven times AND rise again, But the wicked shall FALL by calamity. (Proverbs 24:16)
Well, if you think highly of yourself as a Greek scholar rather than wisdom from the Lord, I am sure you will refuse to see the truth in His words.
Let's begin with what this subject is about in that chapter.
Hebrews 6:1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation ......
So whenever a saved believer falls away, there is no need to lay that foundation again because it has not been removed by that falling away. It cannot be about what you are suggesting when they are addressing saved believers not needing to go through the motion again if they fell away from teh faith or into living in sin.
Actually, by affirming that the foundation received which can never be removed... is OSAS. Any backslider can come back, but it is best if they come back sooner rather than later because the Bridegroom can come at any moment, and if the saved believer be found in iniquity still when He comes, he runs the risk of being left behind, unless he looks to Jesus for help to depart from iniquity before the pre trib rapture event.
If the point of receiving His one time sacrifice for sins by believing in Him in order to be saved, then they cannot crucify Him again if they "fell away" to "renew themselves". The foundation is still there. They just need His help to depart from iniquity.
Repentance required for salvation is the repenting from unbelief by believing in Him. That is the only call to repent for salvation. It is hardly a preliminary stage before salvation when a sinner is a slave to sin that he needs Jesus in him to deliver him from the bondage to sin & t death... hence now having received Him, he has power to live as sons of God by running that race by faith in Jesus Christ to help him lay aside every weight & sin in following the Good Shepherd by faith.
Actually, in real life, the land can produce both. Just as on that foundation, both the wood, stubble, and hay can be found with the gold, silver, and gems. To "go on to perfection" requires us to lean on Jesus Christ in hope all the time in being our Good Shepherd to help us depart from iniquity in our walk with Him in this valley of death.
They apply and line up together speaking on the same subject about that foundation.
No good land is without weeds and briers in this life. That is why saved believers are called to run that race by looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help them lay aside every weight & sin in following Him to abide in Him & His words.
It is not funny on my end how you left out Hebrews 6:1 regarding the topic of a saved believer about not laying that foundation again should they what? Fall away.
Yep. But yet... you are saying he was never saved in how you read that portion of scripture that left out verse 1.
If you take it from verse 1, it is ....
Right. No saved believer after having fallen away, need not lay that foundation again because that foundation is still there. It is only the briers & the thorns that needs to be done away with by leaning on Jesus Christ for help to depart from iniquity.
No. It is the same topic because they are referring to in Hebrews 6:1 about that foundation laid.. to go on to perfection.. not laying that foundation again... for that is impossible. No one can crucify Jesus Christ again.
Leaving out Hebrews 6:1 is the error on your part in application.
Hebrews 6:1 and onward.
So what are you talking about? Are they secure as you had earlier stated thus referring to the saved believer or is the whole topic about unbelievers that cannot "renew themselves again unto repentance"? That would suggest that unbelievers were renewed once... but that would make them believers... not unbelievers.
So Hebrews 6:1 and onward is about not needing to lay that foundation again when a saved believer falls away because Jesus Christ is still in them. They just need to go before that throne of grace, asking for forgiveness and help to depart from iniquity and keep them from those iniquities.
It can happen to any believer, but I do believe your judgment applies to yourself this time, and it is hardly funny, brother. Since it is on God to cause the increase.. to give you wisdom in understanding what is written... I leave you to Jesus Christ. Pray about this in seeing the truth in His words, brother. Do not rely on man's education when wisdom can only come from the Lord.
so now we have " saved believers " and " unsaved believers ". so, when you read the Bible , are you believing what it says, or do you take it as suggestions, and you can make it mean what you will????
and, their is absolutely no such thing as an " unsaved believer ". there are unsaved non-believers, but not " unsaved believers ".
and, their is absolutely no such thing as an " unsaved believer ". there are unsaved non-believers, but not " unsaved believers ".
There is such a thing as saved former believers... as in former believers are still saved, but of course, are at risk of being left behind at the pre trib rapture event unless they go before that throne of grace for help to discern the lies that turned them away from the truth and depart from iniquity by believing in Him again, trusting Him to have them abiding in Him as ready to go, and helping them in loving Heaven above rather than this life to be willing to go too at the pre trib rapture event.
2 Timothy 2:[SUP]11 [/SUP]It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:[SUP] 12 [/SUP]If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:[SUP]13 [/SUP]If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.............[SUP]18 [/SUP]Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.[SUP] 19 [/SUP]Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.[SUP]20 [/SUP]But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.[SUP]21 [/SUP]If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
Explain what these verses are saying below. Do note verse 13 please.
2 Timothy 2:[SUP]11 [/SUP]It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:[SUP] 12 [/SUP]If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:[SUP]13 [/SUP]If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.............[SUP]18 [/SUP]Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.[SUP] 19 [/SUP]Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.[SUP]20 [/SUP]But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.[SUP]21 [/SUP]If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
So it is only sinners that have NEVER believed in Him that are unsaved.
Jesus Christ still abides in believers, but because of lies in the world, they err by believing in the words of men over His words and have fallen away from the faith in Jesus Christ.
That means every saved believer that turned atheists because of the evolution theory are still saved, but even they are still called to depart from the iniquity of unbelief due to the lies in science that had led them astray. There are other examples of saved believers going astray for whatever the reasons they had stopped believing in Him, but they already know the gospel. And so they are saved, but have taken hold of works on that foundation that deny Him wherein they will be denied by Him at the pre trib rapture event, BUT even though left behind... He still abides in them for they have His seal.
That is what differentiates the vessels unto honor from the vessels unto dishonor as the vessels unto dishonor are those that did not depart from iniquity.
But feel free to explain the reference I have quoted above if you still believe otherwise.
Enow, why do you do this?
pre-trib rapture is speculation at best.
It makes everything you say hearsay.
I would state that we have many unbelievers in the world and many lost in the church....
Both are a state....I sat next to a couple in a church once and they said God was awesome, but Jesus they were not so sure about....I do not call them unbelievers, I call them lost...
Hebrews 6:1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation ....."
The subject doesnt begin in chapter 6, its the continuation of the rebuke began here, ( thats actually an interruption.... " Jesus High priest in the order of Melchezidek" ch 5. really is the subject in v 11 there begins a rebuke to the audience concerning Not hearing the further teachings, and continually needing to be re taught the basics rather than moving forward in Knowledge
...ch 5 v 11 "Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which bethe first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
ch 6 "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.3And this will we do, if God permit. 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame....
this should be very clear that simply receiving the Holy spirit, does not guarantee salvation those spoken of DID receive the spirit, were enlightened , fell away from those things and could not be renewed to repentance, because repentance is the first step. its why Jesus first words when He was annointed and began to preach was " repent, for the Kingdom of God is near."
This clear rebuke smashes any idea of osas doctrine. those who Once were enlightened and had received the H.S. are those spoken of that fell away and could not be renewed. theres really no question of this if we simply accept the Word as is. "They who were once made partakers of the Holy Ghost...if they fall away" this is why when people readed " you were sealed with the Holy spirit, its not to then be thought im saved already , no matter what. Because stated very plainly there this rebuke is a warning against falling away AFTER One has received the spirit, and truth of Gods Word, because they refuse to grow and Hear the word about righteousness. Then the writers return to the real subject of Jesus High priest and quote the promise of God that He is to be High priest forever in the order of Melchezidek"
That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: 19Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;20Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec."
then they continue the depth of the meaning of Jesus OurHigh priest which is a central theme of Hebrews. unless we throw out the book of Hebrews and label it old testament like many do the Gospel, Once again osas is demolished by whats there in the Word
The subject doesnt begin in chapter 6, its the continuation of the rebuke began here, ( thats actually an interruption.... " Jesus High priest in the order of Melchezidek" ch 5. really is the subject in v 11 there begins a rebuke to the audience concerning Not hearing the further teachings, and continually needing to be re taught the basics rather than moving forward in Knowledge
...ch 5 v 11 "Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.12For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which bethe first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. 14But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
ch 6 "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.3And this will we do, if God permit. 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame....
this should be very clear that simply receiving the Holy spirit, does not guarantee salvation those spoken of DID receive the spirit, were enlightened , fell away from those things and could not be renewed to repentance, because repentance is the first step. its why Jesus first words when He was annointed and began to preach was " repent, for the Kingdom of God is near."
This clear rebuke smashes any idea of osas doctrine. those who Once were enlightened and had received the H.S. are those spoken of that fell away and could not be renewed. theres really no question of this if we simply accept the Word as is. "They who were once made partakers of the Holy Ghost...if they fall away" this is why when people readed " you were sealed with the Holy spirit, its not to then be thought im saved already , no matter what. Because stated very plainly there this rebuke is a warning against falling away AFTER One has received the spirit, and truth of Gods Word, because they refuse to grow and Hear the word about righteousness. Then the writers return to the real subject of Jesus High priest and quote the promise of God that He is to be High priest forever in the order of Melchezidek"
That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us: 19Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;20Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec."
then they continue the depth of the meaning of Jesus OurHigh priest which is a central theme of Hebrews. unless we throw out the book of Hebrews and label it old testament like many do the Gospel, Once again osas is demolished by whats there in the Word
Not lose his salvation If rise again. If not rise again than It lose.
If the Rocky type Christian AS describe in matt 13 rise again before he die, than he save