The book of Hebrews

followjesus · Aug 5, 2017

is there a single purpose? or is one of those purposes as those scriptures i shared with you in your first question? its my belief that sometimes we try to confine things to mean one single thing when truly Jesus is everything. He is Priest, He is the Lamb of atonement which the priest offers, He is the giver of the Law as was Moses, He is the Lord, He is Savior and redeemer, He is the Humble servant of Isaiah 53, and the Mighty King who gives Judgement of truth and righteousness of Isaih, He is the scapegoat on which our sins were placed and taken away, He is the Holy Lamb of atonement, He is everything. The express image of God, the Son of God, the radiance of Gods Glory, Our King, our compassionate Brother, the first born over all creation and the Last who will come. He is Our forgiver, Our teacher, He is the Word of God, Our shepherd and the bishop of our souls He is everything the Word says He is and I do not believe His death and resurrection can be summarized in one statement.

His experiencing the flesh through His Son, is essentially a part of salvation for us, everything Jesus did, said and still does is for us based on Gods Mercy and Love for us and His glaring desire to be with us personally close as a Father is to thier most precious child. many things are found in Him being made Like unto us, before Jesus, He wasnt like us. in the beginning man was Made in Gods image, we threw it away for sin, in Jesus God is made in the image of man through His Son, and He won back the things we gave away. that we can be made in His image again. we lost He waon and freely offers the victory and eternal Life all through the process of sending His Son in order to be made Like us and free us from what we reaped for the sins we have all commited, which is death and seperation from God.

followjesus · Aug 5, 2017

posthuman said:

Gods creation was very Good, made in His image. we then sinned and became what you see in genesis 6 " every though and inclination of mans heart was only evil all the time" when God says ???? I am greived at my Heart that I have made man on the earthi will destroy them all save 8 people. " do you suppose at this point we are Gods creation? or a product of the creation of God gone wrong led astray to follow after satans will ? if you say were still Gods image and what He created, then we must have an arbitrarily cruel God to kill that wich is very good and created in His image......we surely do not.

reneweddaybyday · Aug 5, 2017

Post #36:

posthuman said:

We know from Psalm 103:14 that God knoweth our frame; He remembereth that we are dust.

Post #34:

posthuman said:

Right. Jesus Christ showed us how to overcome and how to look to Father in every circumstance. How many times do we read about Jesus going off by Himself to pray to Father. He showed us how to overcome the devil in his tempting us (it is written is very powerful against satan). And when we are faced with what we perceive to be an insurmountable object in front of us, we look to Jesus, the author and finisher of faith (Heb 12:2) as we lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us (Heb 12:1).

posthuman · Aug 5, 2017

followjesus said:

this isn't trial and error on God's part; He is always omniscient, always omnipotent, always good, and always perfectly wise, above human wisdom. anytime my understanding leads to God failing at some point to be God, my understanding is wrong. God is never not God.

so i'm inquisitive about God 'needing' to 'feel' what humans feel. He's not Data from star trek or the Tin Man from the wizard of oz - not a robot who can't fully comprehend humanity because He doesn't have an emotion circuit installed -- He created our emotions and they are upheld by His word, as are all things, whether seen or unseen ((Colossians 1)).

in Hebrews 2:8 it's revealed that all things are subjected to Him, but we don't see it yet. this forms part of the preface & premise on which what follows is built, doesn't it? God isn't constrained by time; He created it and sustains it and it exists for His glory and good pleasure, right? but we are constrained by time. so what's He doing when He is manifested in time? is it for His benefit, so He can work things out for Himself? or is it for our benefit? is He come in the flesh for His own benefit, or for our own benefit? is it Him who needs to search out and experience our hearts, because He does not know them, or us who need to figure out His heart, and drown in it, because we don't know Him?

who is ignorant of the other, God or man?

well, that ought to be obvious, and it's in the preface of the whole letter, in case it's not - in Hebrews 1:2-3 it's written that He is the Creator and Sustainer of all things, i.e. the Beginning and the End. but this is the mystery of Christ: that He, the One who knows the end from the beginning, humbled Himself and took on flesh, for our sake.

followjesus · Aug 5, 2017

posthuman said:

why do you not see the scriptures concerning this ?

Here again , it is for our benifit amen, But God cannot be tempted of Evil. do you suppose that God Knows what it is like to sin? Heres the scriptures

ch 2 ....But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. ( Does God Know the taste of death? until Jesus dies? He knows all about death, but He does not have the experience of dying until Jesus)
10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, ( all for us) to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,...

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, ( this is where you are Losing what im saying God is spirit, He is not flesh and blood) he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. ( I hate to argue here, But God doesnt Know the experience of Bieng subject to the bondage of Sin)16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, ( why? )that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted."

God sent Jesus to among other things experience temptation, Because God cannot be tempted already shown you that scripture from James, Jesus was tempted thats why the writers are saying this stuff. Look above " for in that He himself suffered being tempted, He is ABLE to soccour them that are tempted. do you not see what im saying still? they continue

ch 4 "Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

God did not Know the feeling of flesh and blood until He sent Jesus Christ made of flesh and Blood. God cannot be tempted because He is spirit, He was not subjected to it, until Jesus was sent Flesh and Blood. because Jesus was tempted Like we, man is, He is able to strengthen us when we face temptation. God is not ignorant in anything those are your words, or rather what you are seeing that im not saying. if Jesus had not suffered the same temptations as us, He would Not be the perfect High proiest able to offer the mercy and Grace we need.

Thats what the writers of this book are saying here. alot of other things also, but concerning this issue this is clearly according to whats plainly there, this is what they are saying. is it for Gods benifit that Jesus died? no never suggested that, is it for our benifit that Jesus learned perfection of the flesh and blood, suffering temptation and overcoming it,,,, yes. God is not a man that He should Know infirmity, thats the whole point they are making Here about why Jesus did these things. God Knows where temptation comes from, where it leads, He knows all things.......until Jesus came He did not Know the feeling of being tempted like we are because He always Has been beyond it. He is holy, there is not One place in Gods mind or heart that can be tempted.

In order to reach down and help us who have always been subject to tenptation, He sent His Son to do that for us, to be made Like us, subject to authority and temptation, God has never Known that until Jesus came.

Like many do here you are seeing ewhat you are seeing me say lol i never suggested God works by trial and error thats ridiculous. Christ was slain from the foundation of the World. meaning it was always Gods divine plan. the part of the plan explained Here and its purpose for us is just what it is, instead of trying to argue look at the scriptures. and try not to add to what I have said and then question me based on your own observation. you would have to be the One to explain what you see. the scripture is what it is.

Let me now ask you could God until Jesus came be touched with our weaknesses? Could He be tempted or experience and therefore overcome temptation when he was never subject to it being Holy? its Just whats there i hinestly am not here to make sure i agree with everyone, if i were id Jump on the gog wagon.

reneweddaybyday · Aug 6, 2017

followjesus said:

Hebrews 2 does not say that Jesus came to "help us who have always been subject to temptation".

Hebrews 2 says that Jesus came to destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Hebrews 2:

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Does Jesus help us to overcome temptation? Yes.

However, the goal was to destroy him that had the power of death and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Rom 8:15 tells us for ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of sonship whereby we cry, Abba, Father

What is this "spirit of bondage again to fear"? Is it not the fear of death? The born again one no longer has to fear death because we know that we shall rise again. We have eternal life and we will be with Father and with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in new heaven / new earth. And until then, we look to the One Who is able to succour them that are tempted (Heb 2:18).

followjesus · Aug 6, 2017

reneweddaybyday said:

"Hebrews 2 does not say that Jesus came to "help us who have always been subject to temptation"."

ughhForasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, ( this is where you are Losing what im saying God is spirit, He is not flesh and blood) he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetimesubject to bondage. ( I hate to argue here, But God doesnt Know the experience of Bieng subject to the bondage of Sin)16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, ( why? )that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted."

soccour

assistance and support in times of hardship and distress.
[TABLE="class: vk_tbl vk_gy"]
[TR]
[TD="class: lr_dct_nyms_ttl"]synonyms:[/TD]
[TD]aid, help, a helping hand, assistance; [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
- [COLOR=#878787 !important][/COLOR]
  
  [COLOR=#878787 !important][/COLOR]

verb
[COLOR=#878787 !important]verb: succour[/COLOR]

1.
give assistance or aid to.

where does death come from? from sin, what does sin come to us through? temptation.

followjesus · Aug 6, 2017

reneweddaybyday said:

Hebrews 2 does not say that Jesus came to "help us who have always been subject to temptation".

Hebrews 2 says that Jesus came to destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Hebrews 2:

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Does Jesus help us to overcome temptation? Yes.

However, the goal was to destroy him that had the power of death and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Rom 8:15 tells us for ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of sonship whereby we cry, Abba, Father

What is this "spirit of bondage again to fear"? Is it not the fear of death? The born again one no longer has to fear death because we know that we shall rise again. We have eternal life and we will be with Father and with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in new heaven / new earth. And until then, we look to the One Who is able to succour them that are tempted (Heb 2:18).

temptation = a vehicle for sin, bondage to sin = death

followjesus · Aug 6, 2017

followjesus said:

For it behoved Him to be made like His brethren.....

[COLOR=#878787 !important]past tense: behoved[/COLOR]

it is a duty or responsibility for someone to do something; it is incumbent on.

[TABLE="class: vk_tbl vk_gy"]
[TR]
[TD="class: lr_dct_nyms_ttl"]synonyms:[/TD]
[TD]be incumbent on, be obligatory for, be required of, be expected of, be appropriate for[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
- it is appropriate or suitable; it befits.

posthuman · Aug 6, 2017

followjesus said:

maybe you just don't realize what you are actually saying?

followjesus said:

ignorance is "not knowing" something.

followjesus said:

that's literally what you just wrote about God.

posthuman · Aug 6, 2017

followjesus said:

except, you did:

followjesus said:

your interpretation is that He had to do this in order to overcome His own ignorance of "the feeling of flesh and blood"

¿claro? with good reason you don't want to use the word "ignorant" but when you say He did not know or understand something, that omniscient God lacked a certain knowledge and had to acquire it, that's exactly what you're saying: that omniscient God was ignorant. specifically, that He was ignorant of "the feeling of flesh and blood" - and the idea that He had do come in the flesh in order to gain what was lacking in His omniscience is tantamount to saying He did this for His own benefit: that He was unable previously, and needed to do this in order to make Himself able.
and in your reply, you start off again in chapter 2 from verse 9.
leaving out verse 8.

verse 8 comes before verse 9:

For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him.
But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.

it looks to me that this is a principle we have to learn before we can understand verse 9 & following, which begins "But we do see.."

so let's start there - "for this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard" ((verse 1)) - not neglecting to hear the quote from Psalm 8 -- "You have put all things in subjection under his feet" -- and what the letter introduces the discussion of His humanity with: that this is a completed thing, it is not lacking in any point, but we do not yet see it

that's really a very profound statement, that i think has been skipped over completely, to our detriment. it should cause us to think very differently about time and about existence, which has great bearing on how we comprehend what follows ((IMO)), allowing us to avoid what are honestly kinda blasphemous errors.

posthuman · Aug 6, 2017

Hebrews is not a simple book.

in my opinion we can put this right up there beside Romans & the first chapter of John as one of the deepest, densest things in the new testament, that we could spend 1,000 lifetimes expounding on and uncovering great truth in, and still barely scratch the surface.

but amen, one day, 'we will know even as we are fully known'

Grace777x70 · Aug 6, 2017

posthuman said:

Amen. I agree.

I think what makes the book of Hebrews hard to understand in some of our minds and subjects = is that part of it could be - is this really true what is really being said in here?

reneweddaybyday · Aug 6, 2017

followjesus said:

I am not "Losing what [you] are saying".

You stated in your post #45 that God:

"In order to reach down and help us who have always been subject to tenptation, He sent His Son to do that for us, to be made Like us, subject to authority and temptation, God has never Known that until Jesus came."

God sent His Son to destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil (Heb 2:14).

In destroying the devil, He delivered us who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage (Heb 2:15).

Jesus Christ was in all things ... made like unto His brethren (Heb 2:17). However, Jesus Christ was not like you or me. Jesus Christ was like Adam. There was no sin in Jesus Christ, just like there was no sin in Adam before he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Now Hebrews 2:18 For in that He Himself hath suffered being tempted, He is able to succour them that are tempted.

Even before Christ came in the flesh, God succoured those who were tempted. God has always helped mankind. We were the ones who needed to understand that we could overcome temptation and stand fast against the devil.

Mankind always had the excuse that God cannot sin and He just does not understand how difficult it is to overcome temptation.

The fact that Jesus Christ, our High Priest, is able to succour us in our temptation is an added benefit to His having destroyed the devil. Our being succoured is in addition to our being delivered from fear of death, which subjected us to bondage all our lifetime.

Nehemiah6 · Aug 6, 2017

posthuman said:

You seem to be missing the point over and over again.

God -- in His omniscience -- KNOWS all things. But God is not man and did not go through human experiences until Christ became a Man and was subjected to temptations and suffering. That is when God EXPERIENCED the experiences of humanity. This was a necessity to make Christ "complete" as the Savior (as stated in Hebrews), since His sufferings and His humiliations were all a part of the price He paid for our redemption. This was His humanity, not His divinity, and we see His humanity on display in the Garden of Gethsemane. The writer to the Hebrews also makes reference to this.

Here is an analogy. Your friend has been in a car accident and suffered tremendous injuries, but you have never been in a car accident. While you may "know" all about the sufferings mentally, you cannot know the experience physically until you yourself are in a similar accident.

beta · Aug 6, 2017

I think we need to bear in mind the difference of
Head-knowledge and Practical Experience (esp. of the flesh)
they are a million miles apart.

oldethennew · Aug 6, 2017

followJesus wrote:

In order to reach down and help us who have always been subject to tenptation, He sent His Son to do that for us, to be made Like us, subject to authority and temptation, God has never Known that until Jesus came.
=======================================

God created, (already knew), He created CHOICE, in The Garden
= already knowing the END from the Beginning...
just like the scripture says = END and the BEGINNING, and of course,
ALL IN-BETWEEN! please, take our Creator out of the box you or someone
else has taught you to put Him in...

followjesus · Aug 6, 2017

Well im gonna consider this a derail, God bless

followjesus · Aug 6, 2017

oldethennew said:

have you Hinestly Lost what the subject is here? the writers are talking about God Our Creator, making the perfect HIGH PRIEST. That is why the scriptures are expressing that Jesus was required, to suffer temptations the same we face. its not about Our creators understanding. the fact remains God is not subject to temptation Cant be He is above it. That is One of the reasons He sent His Son Jesus, to experience what we do. God is not Like a man, He is not subject to temptation cannot be, yeah God created man and understood things.

i think you really are missing the point of He created adam and eve in His image, and satan came along and Hijacked His creation which is the whole point of Jesus " saving" us. what adam did following satans word is what brought death. that is what we are saved from adams course. God did not create us as we are now, thats satans derailment of Gods Creation God Created this

Genesis 1 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

and says this

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

satan does this genesis 3

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it waspleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons."

3 chapters later God says this of whom he said " they were made in His image and very Good

Gebesis 6And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

are these people still the image of God? and if they are only evil continually, whos image would that make them at this point? Satan took what God created and turned it totally opposite of His image which is "very good" How did satan do this? through temptation, came SIN, through Sin came death.

this is what Jesus purpose is

1 john 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."

God did not create sinners satan Hijacked what was Good and led them away after His will, sin, He altered Gods creation to be in HIS IMAGE only evil continually. He did this through temptation. thats the whole reason we need a savior. again

1 john 3:10 " In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Im sorry you are not hearing me, God has no kinship no experience of sin, it is utterly opposed to His nature, His mind and character. these things in Hebrews, let us understand Just what was needed. so that we understand Christ became the solution for us. all of the first creation is dead, because of the will of satan, sin, sin came through temptation. Jesus faced it in order to understand what we go through it was necassary in order to strengthen us against it, because where temptation is overcome...there isNo sin, and where there is No Sin...there is No death.

followjesus · Aug 6, 2017

beta said:

also , the subject here in Hebrews is what God has done through perfecting a High priest, God has no kinship whatsoever with anything evil, sin is Not Gods will, it is the will of satan. He also has "children" created in His image. Christ came to make us back into the image of God, into Jesus image, the omage of Gods children. who ARE the image of God.

2 corinthians 3:18 "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

How is it that were already Gods image if Jesus is changing us into His image? when man was created we were made in the image of God from the start. so whats the necessaty to be changed into the image of Jesus? who Himself is the image of God.

Hebrews 1Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.5For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

John 1:12 "But to all who did receive Him, He gave them the right to be children of God, to those who believe in His name,
adam followed satans will through eve , when we became sinners we were no longer the image of our Holy God we became the work of satan wich is what Jesus came to destroy

1 john 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

temptation is not a work of God, temptation leads us to sin, and sin leads to death its a principle from beginning to end. to solve sin, we overcome temptation through Jesus Knowledge being Like us, tempted in the same ways. yet He never sinned being the Son of God and Gods Image. He became Man for among other things to experience our bonds to temptation, which brings us to sin, and death becoming flesh is critical in the process because temptation comes to flesh and blood Not to God who is spirit, nor from God not of God.

James 1:13 "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

temptation is not of God it is the work of satan the destroyer of Gods creation temptation, sin, death. they are all the work of satan.He used Gods Word to Kill us.

God the creator said to keep us safe

Genesis 2:16-17 "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

free access to Life, and a warning to keep them safe from death

satans mind says " Now if i can only get them to eat this fruit they will surely die, because the Creator said they would if they eat of this fruit

How does He do this? He questions Gods Word, He offers a Lie to make eve see that the fruit is actually good for Her. they eat the fruit and death comes to us Just like God said. satan changed our minds with His words, His will was to Kill us by following the Lie.

romans 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

the reason we die is because satan deceived adam and eve to do exactly what God said would bring death. by twisting and distorting, Gods Word satan Killed. By the truth of Gods Word Jesus gives Life. In order to save us, He became like us, to have Kinship not with the holy men, but with those who were enslaved by sin and death. Jesus came to save sinners those led away from God by satan. Jesus became flesh and blood carried our nature and perfected it never sinning, thats why death could not lay claim on Jesus if Jesus had sinned death had every right to keep him. if Jesus was not made flesh and blood He could not have redeemed us who are flesh and blood and we would have no High priest Nor be called children of God

The book of Hebrews

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