is the bible always the authority (heresy alert, dont click!)

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May 13, 2017
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If God says something is important, should you dispute it or obey it? You may not fully understand the implications, but simple obedience is all that is required. Had Adam and Eve simply obeyed instead of having a dialogue with the Devil, we would not even be having this discussion.
!!
There ya go! The key words..."IF God said it" But God did not say that women should keep silent. I love the teachings of several women...My wife included...God shows her something, and a ten minute sermon pops our her pretty mouth. I've learned a LOT that way. Women!! Never submit to that devilish doctrine. Open your mouths and let God speak through you!! You'll be mucho blessed! And so will any wise man that listens.
 

Enow

Banned
Dec 21, 2012
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Well, this is pure nonsense. Why did you even bother to say it?
See post #136 for the scripture in why it is God's commandment even for the N.T.

That is why I said it.
 
May 13, 2017
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See post #136 for the scripture in why it is God's commandment even for the N.T.

That is why I said it.
Uh...Yeah. That's why you said it....And you said it wrong!
I've discussed that at least twice so far in this forum.....Why don't your read your bible before expounding on it. Then you will know what is going on. Paul DID NOT say that women should keep silent. There is your challenge...What was really going on there? Back up two chapters, ask the Holy Spirit to teach you, pay attention to what He will show you, then come back and we can talk.
 
P

Persuaded

Guest
Uh...Yeah. That's why you said it....And you said it wrong!
I've discussed that at least twice so far in this forum.....Why don't your read your bible before expounding on it. Then you will know what is going on. Paul DID NOT say that women should keep silent. There is your challenge...What was really going on there? Back up two chapters, ask the Holy Spirit to teach you, pay attention to what He will show you, then come back and we can talk.
I Timothy 2:11-12

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."
 
May 13, 2017
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I Timothy 2:11-12

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."
An entire doctrine built on one sentence. And a devilish doctrine at that. The Word will verify the Word. But the Word does not verify this doctrine.
You did not do as I suggested. You just fired off the same sick doctrine....Its a doctrine taught by demons my friend. Satan hates women far more than he hates men. He wants to destroy them and if he can use you, to destroy them, he's that much happier.
 
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Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,786
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113
hahaaaaaa i know all heresy hunters will click on this........

but see i had a dream about this and im thinking does the bible always remain the final authority??????? its said today in many creeds and such..... but if u look at the bible, there are times when people are commanded to do something that the church would condemn today u see..... i mean the story where that mon is asked to marry a harlot and has to 'buy' her own wife back u see....... if u married a prost/harlot today ud be scolded for sure and bombed with bible quotes but this mon did it anyway...........
another situation is where rahab was commended for lying to the king's messengers which is in violation of the bible's commandments too (lies)............ and then we have the big patriach that big boi big man jacob who also lied to his own father and no consequences came......... there are probably more examples u see.

so what im saying is how does this fit with the bible final authority thing we read in all of the creeds these people disobeyed bible and it was fine and dandy sometimes even God ordained??????? the church would condemn all these people 100% if they did those things today........

and dont worry im not fikkle i got my helmet on its gonna be a bumpy ride for me hahahaha for this thread...... :D

First, creeds have nothing really to do with the Bible. Well, they do attempt to lay out what the Bible says, and often do it well. But, we were saying the Apostles Creed in my Baptist Church last week, and I disagree strongly with the inference that Jesus descended to hell. He did not! But that is me! And the Bible!

Getting back to the Bible, you need to do some research on "Hermeneutics." That is the study of Bible interpretation. But look up hermeneutics, it will tell you about the science and art of how to interpret the Bible, and also, when we can disagree in love.

Using your example of Hosea being told to marry a prostitute, and does it apply to everyone, have you ever read Hosea? That might be your first place to start! God did this, because Hosea's life was to become a metaphor for Israel, and the way the people started whoring with foreign gods. Hosea obeyed God, had 3 children, each with significant names, which really were prophecies. (Children's names were Jezebel, No Mercy and Not My People!)
It has the story of redemption by God and betrayal by his wife, Gomer. The entire book is a warning, as all the prophetic books are, as to what will happen to Israel.
It is not a call for all men to marry prostitutes, or risk disobeying God. Read the book, it is not long! In a modern English version! This book is Hosea demonstrating the gospel, in OT times, and prophesying the future of Israel, who Hosea was called to address.

"Rejoice not, O Israel!
Exult not like the peoples;
for you have played the whore, forsaking your God.
You have loved a prostitute's wages
on all threshing floors.
2 Threshing floor and wine vat shall not feed them,
and the new wine shall fail them.
3 They shall not remain in the land of the Lord,
but Ephraim shall return to Egypt,
and they shall eat unclean food in Assyria." Hosea 9:1-3.


[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]In these verses, Hosea predicts that Israel will be carried away, never to return to Israel. In fact, Israel was carried off by Assryia in 722 BC, and was never a country again. (Not Judah - they were carried off by Babylon in 586 BC, but they did come back, carrying the lineage of the Messiah, with Nehemiah and others!)[/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica Neue, Verdana, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]As far women being silent in church, that is more of a side issue. I can prove exegetically that it is ok for women to speak in church, but an extreme complimentarian can prove the opposite using the same verses! But, neither view really affects salvation, so although it is important, it is a red herring for this thread!
[/FONT]
Hermeneutics is about context. When and where did it happen? Was it just for those people, or in the case of Hosea, only for Hosea, although we can learn a lot from that book, and how God sought after Israel to remain faithful? Is the message for some completely other country? Many times the prophets spoke of the downfall of various countries, for the evil they did. Or, in the case of Jonah, how God spared the Ninevites when they repented.

Hermeneutics can help you understand the rules and expectations of Scripture, and how to decide if a passage is universal (applies to everyone) or just to that person speaking, or that generation or country. Hermeneutics can show us the consistent character of God, through Genesis to Revelation. It can show us changing social mores, that do not affect our relationship with God, (example hair and clothing, but within the context of "modesty.") or how to apply universal principles, and how sin and repentance, never go out of fashion.

A good basic introductory book on the subject, which was recommended in pretty much all my seminary classes is "How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth" by Gordon D. Fee and Douglas Stuart. There are a few big words, but nothing that can't be helped by looking those words up, and then moving on.

It starts with what is Bible Interpretation and how to get the best Bible translation for you. Then it goes through the different genres and how interpreting them differs. In other words, we read a narrative, or story, differently than a book of poetry, or prophecy, or apocalypse! The book deals with the law, the gospels and the epistles, and shows you why and how they are different.

And also, that all the books of the Bible are important. Which is why we need to read ALL the books of the Bible, every year, at the very least. Don't get stuck in a favourite book, and never learn the wisdom contained in the books of the OT, for example. Well, unless God tells you to read on book over and over, like he did with me and the Psalms, when I was depressed, after 25 times or more reading the whole Bible. That is where our relationship with God comes in. We do need to know and cover the whole Bible. But sometimes, God puts us somewhere for a season, and we better be prepared to obey!


Here are some links to reputable sites, which will help you understand hermeneutics a bit, so you won't have to ask questions like this anymore!



7 Principles of Biblical Interpretation - LifeWay Pastors

https://bible.org/seriespage/lesson-6-principles-biblical-interpretation

https://www.biblicaltraining.org/li...exegesis/essentials-hermeneutics/mark-strauss
 
P

Persuaded

Guest
An entire doctrine built on one sentence. And a devilish doctrine at that. The Word will verify the Word. But the Word does not verify this doctrine.
All I did is quote what Paul said.

So you are one who picks and chooses what to accept from Paul's teachings.
Do you also reject what Paul said in I Timothy 2:9?

"In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;"
 
May 13, 2017
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All I did is quote what Paul said.

So you are one who picks and chooses what to accept from Paul's teachings.
Do you also reject what Paul said in I Timothy 2:9?

"In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;"
No. You quoted a quote. Go back two chapters and read it prayerfully, listening to the Holy Spirit if you really want to know what is going on there.

I am rejecting what YOU are saying about it.

I Timothy 2:9 is simply saying that women should dress conservatively Not a problem. Women keep silent, is a major problem.
 
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R

ROSSELLA

Guest
hahaaaaaa i know all heresy hunters will click on this........

but see i had a dream about this and im thinking does the bible always remain the final authority??????? its said today in many creeds and such..... but if u look at the bible, there are times when people are commanded to do something that the church would condemn today u see..... i mean the story where that mon is asked to marry a harlot and has to 'buy' her own wife back u see....... if u married a prost/harlot today ud be scolded for sure and bombed with bible quotes but this mon did it anyway...........
another situation is where rahab was commended for lying to the king's messengers which is in violation of the bible's commandments too (lies)............ and then we have the big patriach that big boi big man jacob who also lied to his own father and no consequences came......... there are probably more examples u see.

so what im saying is how does this fit with the bible final authority thing we read in all of the creeds these people disobeyed bible and it was fine and dandy sometimes even God ordained??????? the church would condemn all these people 100% if they did those things today........

and dont worry im not fikkle i got my helmet on its gonna be a bumpy ride for me hahahaha for this thread...... :D
Yes, the Bible is the final authority, but individual verses don't tell the whole story. The law is meant to point us to justice. We, as sinners, can't know what justice truly is. If we were left on our own, we'd make a mess of things. Doing evil while thinking it's good. Even with the Bible we do this, but to a much lesser degree than if we were on our own.
However, to fully understand the Bible, one needs to study it in its entirety. The Old Testament foreshadows the New Testament and neither one is dispensable. Yes, individual verses are useful, too, but they shouldn't be taken out of context or without studying the rest of the Bible. The case of Rahab is one of at least a few in the Bible where lying is rewarded. Another is when the midwives lied to Pharaoh to protect the lives of the Hebrew infants. I don't pretend to know or understand everything about God's word, but I believe this is in the Bible for a reason. Sometimes doing what is good goes beyond obeying just the letter of the law. Like the people in Germany who lied to the Nazis to protect the Nazis' victims. Saving lives in this occasion was more important than making sure the Nazis weren't deceived.
Likewise, Jesus didn't always claim that the laws were right in all situations. When asked about healing on the Sabbath because it could be construed as work, He gave an example of a situation that would have been even more strenuous: hauling an animal out of a pit. No one would have let an animal suffer because it was the Sabbath so neither should they let man suffer.
Another case was when His followers were picking wheat on the Sabbath, despite the command not to harvest. He could have said (and possibly been justified) that picking just a few grains wasn't really harvesting. Instead, He pointed out how David and his men ate food that was only lawful for priests to eat because they were hungry.

Sometimes doing what is right and good can't be defined in a list of laws. The Bible still teaches us how to determine right from wrong. It gives us a whole history where people had to kill in self-defense and it was alright even though shedding another's blood is condemned, and eating food that wasn't meant for the people who ate it but it was okay because preserving life outweighed ceremony. To understand what goodness and justice is, one needs to read the whole Bible, meditate on it, discuss it with others, and pray. Sometimes we misunderstand. But the Bible itself never changes and is never wrong.
 
P

Persuaded

Guest
No. You quoted a quote. Go back two chapters and read it prayerfully, listening to the Holy Spirit if you really want to know what is going on there.

I am rejecting what YOU are saying about it.
If I go back 2 chapters I will not be in I Timothy.

As I have said time and time again, this is all about God's order in the worship service.
The older men have their place. The younger men have their place. The older women have their place. The younger women have their place. The children have their place. The Bishop has his place. The deacons have their place.

If we each are busy doing what we should be doing, we would not have time to interfere in the ministry of others.
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
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An entire doctrine built on one sentence. And a devilish doctrine at that. The Word will verify the Word. But the Word does not verify this doctrine.
As usual you've gone berserk and overboard with an accusation, yet haven't provided one Scripture in your diatribe.

Now, in context of the given passage do show the meaning in that context, exegete the passage. This won't include calling the passage "doctrine of devils" while not supplying the proper meaning of the text, unless you can prove from the context that is what is going on.

Offer your alleged rebuttal without merely pitting other Scripture against Scripture (your typical fallacious approach if you ever offer up a verse ripped out of context) -- IOW stick to an exegetical interpretation from the context of this passage.

You did not do as I suggested. You just fired off the same sick doctrine....Its a doctrine taught by demons my friend. Satan hates women far more than he hates men. He wants to destroy them and if he can use you, to destroy them, he's that much happier.
Nothing in the former offering of Scripture is demonic or devilish. Your divisive behavior borders on that (and not only here, it is a practice of yours). Instead of offering an unfounded abundance of slander and unfounded accusations of an unnamed doctrine, provide the contextual interpretation of the passage. Man up.
 
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May 13, 2017
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If I go back 2 chapters I will not be in I Timothy.

As I have said time and time again, this is all about God's order in the worship service.
The older men have their place. The younger men have their place. The older women have their place. The younger women have their place. The children have their place. The Bishop has his place. The deacons have their place.

If we each are busy doing what we should be doing, we would not have time to interfere in the ministry of others.
If you are going to post about Gods order of things, then you'd better get it right!

We were discussing women keeping silent In I Timothy 2:11-12 Link this to 1 Corinthians 14:34 and you have two instances of this thing.....Look them up. This is what I am talking about. Go to the beginning of 1 Timothy and read it...Go to 1 Corinthians 12 and read from there. They follow what I said above. This thing of women keeping silent is a devilish doctrine. Pure and simple, and it is NOT backed up by the Word.
 
P

Persuaded

Guest
If you are going to post about Gods order of things, then you'd better get it right!

We were discussing women keeping silent In I Timothy 2:11-12 Link this to 1 Corinthians 14:34 and you have two instances of this thing.....Look them up. This is what I am talking about. Go to the beginning of 1 Timothy and read it...Go to 1 Corinthians 12 and read from there. They follow what I said above. This thing of women keeping silent is a devilish doctrine. Pure and simple, and it is NOT backed up by the Word.
Well, I got it right.
I accept exactly what Paul said while you reject it.
So be it.
 
May 13, 2017
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Well, I got it right.
I accept exactly what Paul said while you reject it.
So be it.
Wow...Its amazing how people who do not know what the Word, says will swear to what it does not say. You swear to the fact that Paul said something when he did not say it. He quoted it, then he answered it. But you know it all, so I won't argue.
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
113
First, creeds have nothing really to do with the Bible. Well, they do attempt to lay out what the Bible says, and often do it well. But, we were saying the Apostles Creed in my Baptist Church last week, and I disagree strongly with the inference that Jesus descended to hell. He did not! But that is me! And the Bible!

Getting back to the Bible, you need to do some research on "Hermeneutics." That is the study of Bible interpretation. But look up hermeneutics, it will tell you about the science and art of how to interpret the Bible, and also, when we can disagree in love.

Using your example of Hosea being told to marry a prostitute, and does it apply to everyone, have you ever read Hosea? That might be your first place to start! God did this, because Hosea's life was to become a metaphor for Israel, and the way the people started whoring with foreign gods. Hosea obeyed God, had 3 children, each with significant names, which really were prophecies. (Children's names were Jezebel, No Mercy and Not My People!)
It has the story of redemption by God and betrayal by his wife, Gomer. The entire book is a warning, as all the prophetic books are, as to what will happen to Israel.
It is not a call for all men to marry prostitutes, or risk disobeying God. Read the book, it is not long! In a modern English version! This book is Hosea demonstrating the gospel, in OT times, and prophesying the future of Israel, who Hosea was called to address.

"Rejoice not, O Israel!
Exult not like the peoples;
for you have played the whore, forsaking your God.
You have loved a prostitute's wages
on all threshing floors.
2 Threshing floor and wine vat shall not feed them,
and the new wine shall fail them.
3 They shall not remain in the land of the Lord,
but Ephraim shall return to Egypt,
and they shall eat unclean food in Assyria." Hosea 9:1-3.


In these verses, Hosea predicts that Israel will be carried away, never to return to Israel. In fact, Israel was carried off by Assryia in 722 BC, and was never a country again. (Not Judah - they were carried off by Babylon in 586 BC, but they did come back, carrying the lineage of the Messiah, with Nehemiah and others!)

As far women being silent in church, that is more of a side issue. I can prove exegetically that it is ok for women to speak in church, but an extreme complimentarian can prove the opposite using the same verses! But, neither view really affects salvation, so although it is important, it is a red herring for this thread!

Hermeneutics is about context. When and where did it happen? Was it just for those people, or in the case of Hosea, only for Hosea, although we can learn a lot from that book, and how God sought after Israel to remain faithful? Is the message for some completely other country? Many times the prophets spoke of the downfall of various countries, for the evil they did. Or, in the case of Jonah, how God spared the Ninevites when they repented.

Hermeneutics can help you understand the rules and expectations of Scripture, and how to decide if a passage is universal (applies to everyone) or just to that person speaking, or that generation or country. Hermeneutics can show us the consistent character of God, through Genesis to Revelation. It can show us changing social mores, that do not affect our relationship with God, (example hair and clothing, but within the context of "modesty.") or how to apply universal principles, and how sin and repentance, never go out of fashion.

A good basic introductory book on the subject, which was recommended in pretty much all my seminary classes is "How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth" by Gordon D. Fee and Douglas Stuart. There are a few big words, but nothing that can't be helped by looking those words up, and then moving on.

It starts with what is Bible Interpretation and how to get the best Bible translation for you. Then it goes through the different genres and how interpreting them differs. In other words, we read a narrative, or story, differently than a book of poetry, or prophecy, or apocalypse! The book deals with the law, the gospels and the epistles, and shows you why and how they are different.

And also, that all the books of the Bible are important. Which is why we need to read ALL the books of the Bible, every year, at the very least. Don't get stuck in a favourite book, and never learn the wisdom contained in the books of the OT, for example. Well, unless God tells you to read on book over and over, like he did with me and the Psalms, when I was depressed, after 25 times or more reading the whole Bible. That is where our relationship with God comes in. We do need to know and cover the whole Bible. But sometimes, God puts us somewhere for a season, and we better be prepared to obey!


Here are some links to reputable sites, which will help you understand hermeneutics a bit, so you won't have to ask questions like this anymore!



7 Principles of Biblical Interpretation - LifeWay Pastors

https://bible.org/seriespage/lesson-6-principles-biblical-interpretation

https://www.biblicaltraining.org/li...exegesis/essentials-hermeneutics/mark-strauss

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Angela53510 again.

(with all the falsities on this site it is sometimes difficult to find others to give some rep to)
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,770
113
!!There ya go! The key words..."IF God said it" But God did not say that women should keep silent. I love the teachings of several women...
Well, any time you open the Bible and read what is taught in it you are reading WHAT GOD SAID. God addressed all the churches through His apostles and prophets, and that is why Scripture is called the Word of God, meaning that all the words in the Hebrew and Greek which were translated into English are the words of God (even though written down by men).

So with this Christian understanding of Scripture it is GOD who said that women are (1) to keep silence in the churches during worship, (2) to cover their heads during worship, (3) to refrain from preaching, teaching, or taking any position of authority within the churches.

Your personal experiences have nothing to do with this. Scripture is Scripture, and as Jesus said "the Scripture cannot be broken". The problem today is that many Christians are being taught that their subjective experiences trump the written Word of God, which also happens to be the commandments of Christ to the churches and to individuals.
 
May 13, 2017
2,359
27
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Well, any time you open the Bible and read what is taught in it you are reading WHAT GOD SAID. God addressed all the churches through His apostles and prophets, and that is why Scripture is called the Word of God, meaning that all the words in the Hebrew and Greek which were translated into English are the words of God (even though written down by men).

So with this Christian understanding of Scripture it is GOD who said that women are (1) to keep silence in the churches during worship, (2) to cover their heads during worship, (3) to refrain from preaching, teaching, or taking any position of authority within the churches.

Your personal experiences have nothing to do with this. Scripture is Scripture, and as Jesus said "the Scripture cannot be broken". The problem today is that many Christians are being taught that their subjective experiences trump the written Word of God, which also happens to be the commandments of Christ to the churches and to individuals.
Read it for yourself I posted above where to find it. Why do you stubbornly ignore it?
In I Timothy 2:11-12 Link this to 1 Corinthians 14:34 and you have two instances of this thing.....Look them up. This is what I am talking about. Go to the beginning of 1 Timothy and read it all...Go to 1 Corinthians 12 and read from there. They follow what I said above. This thing of women keeping silent is a devilish doctrine. Pure and simple, and it is NOT backed up by the Word.

What personal experiences? I'm talking about what the Bible says. You are not stupid...go read it. Um....You're not stupid.....But are you illiterate? I thought not. so then, don't be afraid to learn something. go read it.
 

SovereignGrace

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
5,455
236
63
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Angela53510 again.

(with all the falsities on this site it is sometimes difficult to find others to give some rep to)
Don't fret Brother. I took care of that.

I wanted to rep a post of yours, but "you must spread......blah blah blah yakkity smackity...."