The book of Hebrews

[followjesus]

You seem to be missing the point over and over again.

God -- in His omniscience -- KNOWS all things. But God is not man and did not go through human experiences until Christ became a Man and was subjected to temptations and suffering. That is when God EXPERIENCED the experiences of humanity. This was a necessity to make Christ "complete" as the Savior (as stated in Hebrews), since His sufferings and His humiliations were all a part of the price He paid for our redemption. This was His humanity, not His divinity, and we see His humanity on display in the Garden of Gethsemane. The writer to the Hebrews also makes reference to this.

Here is an analogy. Your friend has been in a car accident and suffered tremendous injuries, but you have never been in a car accident. While you may "know" all about the sufferings mentally, you cannot know the experience physically until you yourself are in a similar accident.

Thats exactly what the scriptures are saying here and one of the main points that God sent Jesus in the flesh, to save those who were of flesh. another or further analogy. a very drunk man is driving a car he doesnt see things right because of the influence He is under he doesnt see the coming danger...He crashes and dies. this man is a sinner under influence of satan.

God sent the perfect driver, seeing things perfectly clear He sees the danger ahead and makes the necassary adjustments He arrives Home safely. This man is Jesus. Having driven safely Home, He is able to instruct others to Not drink and drive, ( repent) and to follow His path because it is safe.( Obey Him) God had never driven the flesh of man until Jesus came. God created the car but until He drove the broken car,( flesh) He was not able to soccour the helpless. He Knew the path, Knew the issue, But the High priest is the One who fixed the broken car, and drove it Home safely following the creators path.

it behoved Him to do this. meaning it was of necessaty for us that God experienced things through His Son, made flesh and blood.

1 john 5:6 "This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

john 4:24 "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

temptation cannot be faced By God He is spirit, temptation requires flesh in order to tempt


james1 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death


the solution is to overcome temptation as Jesus did, all flesh will face it, Jesus is able to soccour us to overcome it. thats where overcoming sin happens in the Mind and Heart. satan is the tempter, and we " submit to God, resiust the devil and He will flee" all flesh is corrupt it will all be tempted, we either learn from the One who overcame and live, or we follow temptation to sin and then death.

 

[followjesus]

maybe you just don't realize what you are actually saying?



ignorance is "not knowing" something.




that's literally what you just wrote about God.

lol or possibly you dont Know what im saying is probably more likely. God doesnt have any relationship to sin. it is solely of satan. God is Light in Him there is no darkness at all, sin is of the darkness. God Knows it is death thats the ultimate understanding of sin. God does not Know the feeling of temptation that is a work solely of satan God does not Know sin or He fails to be a Holy God. He Knows its truth that it is death, He Knows How it comes to us, through temptation and He Knows who designed temptation the devil. He does not Know the feeling a sinner faces, UNTIL Jesus faced it. that is what this is saying. otherwise it was pointless to have jesus come in our flesh to be tempted.


if what Hebrews is saying Here isnt saying that, I ask you what then is it saying? regarding Jesus Himself facing temptation and being without sin. whats the point that relates to the subject of the perfect High Priest? keeping in mind the scriptures that are clearly saying this.


you explain to me the purpose of the Son of God being tempted, and that making Him a perfect High priest for us who face it every day. its really impossible on this site to say anything without a word or two scrutinized and made into an argument. doesnt matter if you are showing the scripture along side your words, still the things people think are what rules in thier Mind.


Here you go again

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, ( this is where you are Losing what im saying God is spirit, He is not flesh and blood) he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetimesubject to bondage.16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, ( why? )that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted."


Keep in mind behoved means it is necessary, or befitting, or required.

and soccoor means to give aid, help as it is needed.

Okay now you explain whats being said Here. that doesnt say Jesus needed to do this in order to Help us who face temptation.

 

[posthuman]

I think we need to bear in mind the difference of
Head-knowledge and Practical Experience (esp. of the flesh)
they are a million miles apart.

do you also think God was in need of practical experience?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

i think you really are missing the point of He created adam and eve in His image, and satan came along and Hijacked His creation which is the whole point of Jesus " saving" us. what adam did following satans word is what brought death. that is what we are saved from adams course. God did not create us as we are now, thats satans derailment of Gods Creation God Created this

Genesis 1 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


and says this

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

satan does this genesis 3

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it waspleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons."

3 chapters later God says this of whom he said " they were made in His image and very Good

Gebesis 6And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

are these people still the image of God? and if they are only evil continually, whos image would that make them at this point? Satan took what God created and turned it totally opposite of His image which is "very good" How did satan do this? through temptation, came SIN, through Sin came death.

Only Adam was created in God's image. Here is what Scripture tells us about the progeny of Adam:

Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own [Adam's] likeness, after his [Adam's] image; and called his name Seth

Jesus Christ is called the "only begotten" Son of God. Jesus Christ differed from Adam in that He was born of a woman (the promised Seed of Gen 3:15).

Im sorry you are not hearing me, God has no kinship no experience of sin, it is utterly opposed to His nature, His mind and character. these things in Hebrews, let us understand Just what was needed. so that we understand Christ became the solution for us. all of the first creation is dead, because of the will of satan, sin, sin came through temptation. Jesus faced it in order to understand what we go through it was necassary in order to strengthen us against it, because where temptation is overcome...there isNo sin, and where there is No Sin...there is No death.

Here is where you err in your understanding.


"Jesus faced it in order to understand what we go through it was necessary in order to strengthen us against it"


Jesus faced it in order to destroy the works of the devil as you pointed out in 1 John 3:8, and as is stated in Heb 2:14 that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil.

The devil had the power of death. Sin is the sting of death (1 Cor 15:56). Death is what the devil held over mankind. Jesus Christ destroyed the devil (the one who held the power of death).

That an added benefit to mankind is the example we have to overcome sin is secondary to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ destroying the one who held the power of death.


Read OT Scripture where we are told that God helped to strengthen against the trials and temptations of this life. God did not have to "experience" anything in order "understand" so that He could help mankind overcome. God has always helped mankind to overcome whatever obstacles are faced in this lifetime.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

it behoved Him to do this. meaning it was of necessaty for us that God experienced things through His Son, made flesh and blood.

It behooved Him, not because God needed to experience anything.


It behooved Him because that was what was required in order to destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil (Heb 2:14).


It did not “behoove” Him because He needed to experience temptation.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

God is Light in Him there is no darkness at all, sin is of the darkness. God Knows it is death thats the ultimate understanding of sin. God does not Know the feeling of temptation that is a work solely of satan God does not Know sin or He fails to be a Holy God. He Knows its truth that it is death, He Knows How it comes to us, through temptation and He Knows who designed temptation the devil. He does not Know the feeling a sinner faces, UNTIL Jesus faced it. that is what this is saying. otherwise it was pointless to have jesus come in our flesh to be tempted.

if what Hebrews is saying Here isn't saying that, I ask you what then is it saying?

It is saying that we can look to Jesus and follow Him and we can overcome temptation by following Him, His example.


We are the ones who need help in understanding.


God does not need help to understand anything He has created.

you explain to me the purpose of the Son of God being tempted, and that making Him a perfect High priest for us who face it every day.

The devil tried to tempt Jesus Christ in order to cause Him to fall just as Adam did, and like he did (with his minions). The devil tried and tried and tried. And he failed. Big time.


And, in fact, if the devil had known the hidden wisdom of God, he would not have crucified the Lord of glory (1 Cor 2:7-8).

 

[posthuman]

Here is where you err in your understanding.


"Jesus faced it in order to understand what we go through it was necessary in order to strengthen us against it"


Jesus faced it in order to destroy the works of the devil as you pointed out in 1 John 3:8, and as is stated in Heb 2:14 that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil.

yes, and seeing what is in Hebrews 2:9-18 through how it is prefaced, in Hebrews 2:8 ((and 1:2-3)), that all things are in subjection to Him, but "we do not yet see" it -- He has accomplished these things before the witness of mankind in order to fully demonstrate His destruction of the works of the devil.

the Biblical use of the word "test" or "tempt" has nuanced meaning, and one of these meanings is to "demonstrate" by way of testing -- a very relevant example being the "testing" or "tempting" of Christ in the wilderness after His baptism ((which was also done because "it is fitting" -- not because He had sin that should be ritually cleansed)). Christ was not being "tested" as though He might fail, but His righteousness was being demonstrated in these trials. He was not "tempted" as though enticed to sin, but to show that in Him it is overcome. so also, God has through His Christ demonstrated His compassion for us by so humbling Himself. this is, in my understanding, more like the good-faith fulfillment of any legal requirement or objection that might be raised than it is God "needing an education" or "doing work-experience" or an "internship" in the flesh.

God has done this for us, and He who is beyond time, for whom all times are simultaneous, did this in the construct of time, and is doing it, so that we, who live now in time, could be witness to it, and believe.

 

[oldethennew]

fj,
consider what you have already said and take it as a 'derail' in your opinion!,..
and maybe just 'shut-up', and learn...this can sometimes, take a lot of humility,
and maturity...

 

[posthuman]

. . . in Hebrews 2:8 ((and 1:2-3)), that all things are in subjection to Him, but "we do not yet see" it -- He has accomplished these things before the witness of mankind in order to fully demonstrate His destruction of the works of the devil.

. . .

God has done this for us, and He who is beyond time, for whom all times are simultaneous, did this in the construct of time, and is doing it, so that we, who live now in time, could be witness to it, and believe.

we see the same quality of His divine work being lifted above time itself again in Hebrews 10:14 --

by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified
​

that this sacrifice was made ((past tense)) once and for all time ((future tense)) for those who are being ((present tense)) sanctified.

you are being sanctified? you already have been perfected according to the scripture - but "we do not yet see it" ((again, the principle presented in Hebrews 2:8)).

this letter to the Hebrews is discussing the future in past tense, and describing things both in the infinity of the eternal and the finite nature of earthly things, things which were and are and always will be, and things that we now see. what we now see is not always what "is" from the perspective of God, who is not bound by time. isn't this how Christ is even now our righteousness through faith, apart from works?

in trying to understand these things, we have to always keep in mind that Jesus Christ is "the same yesterday, today and forever" ((Hebrews 13:8)) -- if our understanding contradicts this, our understanding is incorrect. holding to this, much herein that is often treated as banal becomes absolutely astounding & profoundly deep beyond human measure!! Hebrews -- and all scripture -- is much more complex & wonderful that its initial, superficial reading. as sublimely concise as it so often is, it is the word of the one and only infinite God: why should anyone thing it is "simple" ??

 

[followjesus]

It is saying that we can look to Jesus and follow Him and we can overcome temptation by following Him, His example.


We are the ones who need help in understanding.


God does not need help to understand anything He has created.







The devil tried to tempt Jesus Christ in order to cause Him to fall just as Adam did, and like he did (with his minions). The devil tried and tried and tried. And he failed. Big time.


And, in fact, if the devil had known the hidden wisdom of God, he would not have crucified the Lord of glory (1 Cor 2:7-8).

I havent ever in my life said God needs Help doing anything , this is Hebrews explaining the How, the why. He did what He did FOR US. thats what someone else is saying i said. " that God needs Help " thats ridiculous to then explain to me that He doesnt need Help because that has never been anything i have said.

"God does not need help to understand anything He has created."

Did God create temptation and sin? or am i reading you wrong?

what I am saying is that Jesus is How God experienced temptation, through His Son. before that God did not have that experience to be tempted. look at Jesus temptation, " He was Led by the spirit to be tempted of the devil" that should automatically show you that it was an ordained purpose, of Jesus Christ. not all of His purpose, but it is what the writers are referring to here in Hebrews. this is why people need to understand the priesthood service and appointment as the law explains that to us.


Let me try this this is the Kjv v 2:18

"For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted."

Niv "Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

the greek .text uses this word for suffer pas'-kho " this word means- to experience a sensation or impression (usually painful) -- feel, passion, suffer, vex.

Because Jesus experienced the sensation or feeling of temptation, He is able to Help us when we experience this feeling. God has never felt it. until He was in the Body of Jesus. that is what im saying. Gods Plan was always to send Jesus, because at the right time, Jesus needed to become our High Priest part of a High priests rewuirements is that He is selected By God from among the people of God. He has to be one of them, have a Kinship in thier struggles and also thier victories. Jesus had to go through what He did in order to help us. look at the niv there it says " Because he himself sufferd when tempted, He is able to Help us when we are tempted"

while i love the Niv, its not always on spot with the greek in this instance it is. the reason Jesus is able to Help us when We face temptation, is because He went through what we go through. this doesnt mean in any way God needed Help. it was His Plan to do this all along. the issue here is as it is so often on this site, One person begins explaining what someone is saying by looking for something that can be misconstrued and create an argument.

ive never said most of what you guys seem to be saying i have said. never have i said God needs Help, Im saying that Jesus had to do what He did, so that God could solve our bondage to sin. because it comes through temptation and leads to death. if we arent helped in temptation, we will never overcome sin, and death remains united with sin always has and will be.

Gods only experienbce with temptation came as Jesus walked this earth as flesh and Blood Just Like you and I only, Being Jesus, He never yeilded to that temptation. He personally experienced what a weak person like we are goes through, the inner workings of it in our flesh. this is Something God has never been through, Jesus hadnt either its why the scripture says this

Hebrews 5 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; 9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; 10Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.


this is why also we need to understand that Jesus is the Son of God, God is one with Him, God is spirit, He was in the Body of Jesus. Jesus is the one made flesh and Blood, God is still a spirit, Jesus Himself said this while He himself was Here with us. john 4:24. God is One with Jesus because He is the spirit in Jesus. the High Priest is the One between God and Man, the One who mediates and advocates for the people, the One who is Holy to God, the One who offers the sacrifices to God for the People. all of these things are found in the Levitical Laws. which all speak of Jesus priesthood long before it came.

God has not Known sin, did not create sin, did not create temptation or death, satan did that way back in Genesis 3. That is why Jesus had to come experience it in order to Give us the necassary strength to overcome temptation, and therefore overcome sin and death all because of Jesus.

this is just how it always goes here, like many do with scripture you pluck whats said from Context, and then focus on one sentance claiming thats whats being said, i cant Help if you dont understand what im actually saying, but like scripture you have to see whats being said not How it is said, but what is being said.


If Jesus had to be tempted in order to strengthen and aid us in temptation, tell me why that was necassary in order to help us? why didnt God Just help us rather than sending His flesh and blood Son, to go through all of that ?

 

[followjesus]

you are being sanctified? you already have been perfected according to the scripture - but "we do not yet see it" ((again, the principle presented in Hebrews 2:8)).

thats the danger of one verse theology. No one should have the attitude they are already perfect.


philippians 3Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. 13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. 15Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. 16Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing.


one verse and then a long explanation is the huge issue with the " church" a principle is something that recurrs over and over. such as repent of your sins, obey the Lords Word, such as He will judge each person Jew or gentile according to thier works things like that are principles.

this is what you are basing this on

Hebrews 2:8 "Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.


How is this a principle that means were already perfect, but dont see it yet? sounds like a jospeh prince typoe teaching to me

 

[followjesus]

we see the same quality of His divine work being lifted above time itself again in Hebrews 10:14 --

by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified
​

that this sacrifice was made ((past tense)) once and for all time ((future tense)) for those who are being ((present tense)) sanctified.

you are being sanctified? you already have been perfected according to the scripture - but "we do not yet see it" ((again, the principle presented in Hebrews 2:8)).

this letter to the Hebrews is discussing the future in past tense, and describing things both in the infinity of the eternal and the finite nature of earthly things, things which were and are and always will be, and things that we now see. what we now see is not always what "is" from the perspective of God, who is not bound by time. isn't this how Christ is even now our righteousness through faith, apart from works?

in trying to understand these things, we have to always keep in mind that Jesus Christ is "the same yesterday, today and forever" ((Hebrews 13:8)) -- if our understanding contradicts this, our understanding is incorrect. holding to this, much herein that is often treated as banal becomes absolutely astounding & profoundly deep beyond human measure!! Hebrews -- and all scripture -- is much more complex & wonderful that its initial, superficial reading. as sublimely concise as it so often is, it is the word of the one and only infinite God: why should anyone thing it is "simple" ??

i agree Jesus IS the same always.

John 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you......... At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.


Hebrews 5:9 "And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven

John 8:31-32 "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. John 14:15-17

What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you
2 corinthains 7:1 "Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

 

[followjesus]

we see the same quality of His divine work being lifted above time itself again in Hebrews 10:14 --

by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified
​

that this sacrifice was made ((past tense)) once and for all time ((future tense)) for those who are being ((present tense)) sanctified.

you are being sanctified? you already have been perfected according to the scripture - but "we do not yet see it" ((again, the principle presented in Hebrews 2:8)).

this letter to the Hebrews is discussing the future in past tense, and describing things both in the infinity of the eternal and the finite nature of earthly things, things which were and are and always will be, and things that we now see. what we now see is not always what "is" from the perspective of God, who is not bound by time. isn't this how Christ is even now our righteousness through faith, apart from works?

in trying to understand these things, we have to always keep in mind that Jesus Christ is "the same yesterday, today and forever" ((Hebrews 13:8)) -- if our understanding contradicts this, our understanding is incorrect. holding to this, much herein that is often treated as banal becomes absolutely astounding & profoundly deep beyond human measure!! Hebrews -- and all scripture -- is much more complex & wonderful that its initial, superficial reading. as sublimely concise as it so often is, it is the word of the one and only infinite God: why should anyone thing it is "simple" ??

Thats Just the issue it is very simple, Just believe what is there in front of us., and come to the realization that we dont need a speacial " Lens" in which to veiw Gods Eternal Word. it was simple in the beginning, " You must not eat of this one tree, when you do you will surely die"

then satan came along and " causes eve to question what God plainly said, explained what that "really" meant.......and then came sin and death through the special Lens that turned the mind against Gods plain and simple word.

the simplest understanding of Gods Word is to believe what is written and pray to Him for understanding daily. thats all that is required do that and the Holy spirit will come and strengthen and guide a person according to those powerful words. . to not omit what we dont wanna Hear, or explain How it doesnt really say what it says. its very, very simple. seek God in His word Given through Jesus Christ daily, pray always, believe it and Obey it. and we can never be led astray .

 

[reneweddaybyday]

If Jesus had to be tempted in order to strengthen and aid us in temptation, tell me why that was necassary in order to help us? why didnt God Just help us rather than sending His flesh and blood Son, to go through all of that ?

Jesus' temptation was to taste death for every man (Heb 2:9).


Remember Jesus' prayer in the garden of Gethsemane? Three times He prayed to Father that the cup might pass from Him and each time the answer was "no". So Jesus replied nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. See also Heb 5:7-9.


That is the way in which we are succoured by Jesus. He showed us (and continues to teach us) to die to ourselves in order that we might be perfected.


Hebrews 12:

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.


Jesus endured the cross, despising the same because of the joy that was set before Him (Heb 12:2).


Some teach (and have been taught) that the joy that was set before Him was you, me, and all the rest of mankind who will live in new heaven / new earth.


Well, I disagree with that statement. There is only One Who brings such joy and that is Father God Himself:


Psalm 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.


Psalm 21:6 For thou hast made him most blessed for ever: thou hast made him exceeding glad with thy countenance.


Psalm 36:7-8 How excellent is thy lovingkindness, O God! therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of thy wings. They shall be abundantly satisfied with the fatness of thy house; and thou shalt make them drink of the river of thy pleasures.


In essence, what Heb 12:2 tells us is that Jesus Christ would rather die than break fellowship with His Father. Now that is some powerful stuff. What will it take for us to get to the point where we die to self in order to overcome whatever temptation is laid before us?


Jesus Christ did not have to experience temptation for every man. Jesus Christ had to experience death for every man:

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


Please just consider what I am saying.

 

[Nehemiah6]

do you also think God was in need of practical experience?

We need to understand this matter with spiritual eyes. Therefore we need to see how God views the necessity for Christ's humanity and His human experiences (including humiliations, rejections, sufferings, and death). Please take note of this passage:

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[followjesus]

Only Adam was created in God's image. Here is what Scripture tells us about the progeny of Adam:

Genesis 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own [Adam's] likeness, after his [Adam's] image; and called his name Seth

Jesus Christ is called the "only begotten" Son of God. Jesus Christ differed from Adam in that He was born of a woman (the promised Seed of Gen 3:15).





Here is where you err in your understanding.


"Jesus faced it in order to understand what we go through it was necessary in order to strengthen us against it"


Jesus faced it in order to destroy the works of the devil as you pointed out in 1 John 3:8, and as is stated in Heb 2:14 that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil.

The devil had the power of death. Sin is the sting of death (1 Cor 15:56). Death is what the devil held over mankind. Jesus Christ destroyed the devil (the one who held the power of death).

That an added benefit to mankind is the example we have to overcome sin is secondary to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ destroying the one who held the power of death.


Read OT Scripture where we are told that God helped to strengthen against the trials and temptations of this life. God did not have to "experience" anything in order "understand" so that He could help mankind overcome. God has always helped mankind to overcome whatever obstacles are faced in this lifetime.

wrong. "[FONT=&quot]Only Adam was created in God's image. Here is what Scripture tells us about the progeny of Adam:"[/FONT]

Genesis 1:So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them

the two are 1 flesh. both male and female were created in Gods Image. what i have already said in the comment where you plicked out 2 small things to argue..... satan tempted Eve, adam partook of that temptation, Both ate the fruit and became sinners. that is the moment that man was no longer in Gods Image. you are correct about adams children being His , now sinful image. Kind of the point i was already making.

has nothing to do with the conversation but sure i agree with this

[FONT=&quot]Jesus Christ differed from Adam in that He was born of a woman (the promised Seed of Gen 3:15).


[/FONT]Begotten is the difference Because adam also is called the son of God. Begoten of God because the Holy spirit came upon mary and fathered Jesus by the Word. the only difference is that Jesus was not formed from the dust, but formed of Gods Promises all along. so i have no dispute with this, hinestly see no connection to the conversation but its agreeable.

Luke 3:38 "Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.


[FONT=&quot]Jesus faced it in order to [/FONT]destroy the works of the devil as you pointed out in 1 John 3:8, and as is stated in Heb 2:14 that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil.


exactly the works of the devil temptation, sin and death. you cant die without sinning, you cant sin without temptation is where you are not making the connection. again i would Just refer you to the scriptures regarding this and not see them but how they are written plainly. im not gonna waste my time arguing with you anymore, i cant Help is you dont understand what im saying, or if you have issue with My wording thats not my problem.


[FONT=&quot]The devil had the power of death. temoptation is the Only way sin comes to us, and sin is what brings death, you are failing to make that connection. adam was tempted, or He would have simply not eaten the fruit lol then sin would never have been imaprted to man and death could not have come to us. Death is the result of Sin, sin only comes throiugh temoptation, thats the " How"He destroyed the Work of the devil How temptation, sin and death are the work of satan Not God.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Jesus Christ destroyed the devil (the one who held the power of death).

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Not yet He hasnt that Happens in the end when He is realeased and then cast into the lake of fire. Here proof that He is still working Hard to destroy us.

1 peter 5:8-9 "[/FONT]Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: 9Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world."

ephesians 6:Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. 13Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; 15And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.17And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God


a few examples of why i cringe to Here people insist the devil isnt wprking day and Night to snatch those who are unaware of His ways. He will never change He is subtle, He speaks nicely but they are always small truths mixed with deadly lies, always He will turn the mind against the truth of Gods Word always He will crinbge at the idea of obedience, always He will give a thousand reasons why this or that doesnt apply to you, your already saved Hell say Look at this scripture here this means you can never fall Hell say, Just Like He quoted a scripture out of context to Jesus, Just Like He twisted Gods Word to eve, He is still working overtime to attack Gods children and destroy them, to drag them to Hell with Him. its why the things Like " Be steadfast, be vigilant, do not be deceived " are so often found in the nt so people dont get the wrong idea about things. why were warned to watch carefully our doctrine and Lives. weve Been warned and alol we need to do is believe Gods Word, and obey it Having this Great High Priest Who made the way and Gave us the Holy spirit as a companion.

[FONT=&quot]James 4:7 "[/FONT]Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

example Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
[FONT=&quot]1 corinthians 2:11 "[/FONT]Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices. <<<< temptation, sin, craftiness of false doctrine, death, unforgiveness all that Jesus taught us to watch vigilantly for.


[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]


[/FONT]

 

[followjesus]

fj,
consider what you have already said and take it as a 'derail' in your opinion!,..
and maybe just 'shut-up', and learn...this can sometimes, take a lot of humility,
and maturity...

I stand By every word actually, and i think i wont " shut up actually" but thank you for the advice

 

[posthuman]

you are being sanctified? you already have been perfected according to the scripture - but "we do not yet see it" ((again, the principle presented in Hebrews 2:8)).

thats the danger of one verse theology. No one should have the attitude they are already perfect.

well, it looks to me like you're missing the point - which is not at all about "having already attained it" - it's about there being a temporal disconnect between the heavenly reality and the transitory earthly experience.

this isn't "one verse theology" -- i've already given you at least four passages, Hebrews 1:2-3, 2:7-8, 13:8 and 10:14.

here are some more for you:

Ephesians 2:6-7 plainly says that we are ((past tense)) raised up with Christ and ((present tense)) seated with Him in heavenly places

Romans chapter 6 at least a dozen times says we "have died" ((quite expressly past tense)) with Him already, therefore, act like it ((present & future tense))

1 Corinthians 5:7 admonishes those believers to "get rid of the old leaven" so that they may be made ((future tense)) into a new lump "as (they) really are" ((present tense))

2 Corinthians 5:16-17 does not mince words in saying that "we no longer regard anyone according to the flesh, though we have known Christ after the flesh, we regard Him thus no longer" and that "therefore if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation; the old things are passed away and all things are made new"

Revelations 13:8 names Christ "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" -- but was He crucified in Genesis chapter 1?

Ephesians 1:4 says we were "chosen in Him before the foundation of the world" -- i.e. before the garden, before the fall, before He was manifest in the flesh.

Jesus declares that "to God, all are alive" in both Mark 12:27 and Luke 20:38 without denying the existence of death​

these are just a handful from the top of my head.

and this, which is sometimes called 'the prophetic voice' is not at all a new thing, and not confined to the new testament. over and over and over again, throughout the books of the prophets, they speak by the Spirit about future events as though they are already accomplished. God says of Himself that He "declares the end from the beginning" ((Isaiah 46:10))

what i am trying to express to you is by no means built on one isolated verse. but apart from a certain reading of Hebrews 2:18 that completely ignores Hebrews 2:1-9, where do you get the interpretation that omniscient, omnipotent God "didn't understand how humans feel" and so it was "necessary for Him to experience human emotions when they are tempted" in order for the One who created the hearts of men to have proper compassion on them?

going back to 2 Corinthians 5, the answer is again written in verses 18-19:

Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
​

what was being accomplished in Christ?
it is not that God was reconciling Himself to the world; He was reconciling the world to Himself. Christ, in becoming flesh and "like His brethren" in every way, is demonstrating the true nature of what the high priesthood of Aaron was only a type of. He is not doing this for His own sake, as though He was previously incapable of succoring us - it is for our sake, so that the extent of His grace is revealed through His finished work.

very simply & plainly, God did not "become capable" of sympathizing with man by becoming flesh. rather, by doing this He revealed His capability to show us perfect mercy and faithfulness. Christ does not represent "the evolution" of God towards us; He is the revealing of God to us ((which, again is plain from the text: Hebrews 1:1-3, God has spoken to us now through The Son, not 'God has comprehended us now by The Son')). this is what all of scripture is: revealing God to mankind, and this is eternal life: to know Him. His words are life because they are the transmission of the knowledge of Him, and this is His life on earth also, the demonstration and transmission of the knowledge of Him to us, so that we may gain what we lack -- not that God lacks anything, nor ever needs to gain something.

 

[followjesus]

Jesus' temptation was to taste death for every man (Heb 2:9).


Remember Jesus' prayer in the garden of Gethsemane? Three times He prayed to Father that the cup might pass from Him and each time the answer was "no". So Jesus replied nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. See also Heb 5:7-9.


That is the way in which we are succoured by Jesus. He showed us (and continues to teach us) to die to ourselves in order that we might be perfected.


Hebrews 12:

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.


Jesus endured the cross, despising the same because of the joy that was set before Him (Heb 12:2).


Some teach (and have been taught) that the joy that was set before Him was you, me, and all the rest of mankind who will live in new heaven / new earth.


Well, I disagree with that statement. There is only One Who brings such joy and that is Father God Himself:


Psalm 16:11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.


Psalm 21:6 For thou hast made him most blessed for ever: thou hast made him exceeding glad with thy countenance.


Psalm 36:7-8 How excellent is thy lovingkindness, O God! therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of thy wings. They shall be abundantly satisfied with the fatness of thy house; and thou shalt make them drink of the river of thy pleasures.


In essence, what Heb 12:2 tells us is that Jesus Christ would rather die than break fellowship with His Father. Now that is some powerful stuff. What will it take for us to get to the point where we die to self in order to overcome whatever temptation is laid before us?


Jesus Christ did not have to experience temptation for every man. Jesus Christ had to experience death for every man:

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.


Please just consider what I am saying.

i have considered and dont disagree with alot of it actually, i think on the other hand you are not considering the scripture, and are more focused on what you perceive I have said rather than looking Here.

Hebrews 2

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; ( subkect sentance)15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 16For verily he took not on [FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]him the nature of angels; but [/FONT]he took on him the seed of Abraham.

[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]( God beforehand was not of the seed of abraham could not be tempted. Our sinful Minds are not something God can relate to He Knows what we think, He doesnt Have those thoughts, He is not tempted by anything evil itdoesnt come near God it cannot. so He sent Jesus to partake of our flesh, some will argue Jesus flesh wasnt Like ours, as if He really wasnt tempted, Just for show or something, Jesus was tempted just like we are because He became Just Like we are. its why He " suffered" why when He was Hungry after no food, satan targeted that Hunger and tempted Him. because the flesh is weak that is not something God knew personally, hadnt experienced it that is important to the actual subject Here being the High priest) [/FONT]17[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Wherefore in all things [/FONT]it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif], ( why did it behove Him?) [/FONT]that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, ( why is He made High Priest?)[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] [/FONT]to make reconciliation for the sins of the people[FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]. (How is He able to do that?)[/FONT][FONT=Trebuchet, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]For in that ( Because) he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. (<<< conclusion sentance)[/FONT]

Hebrews 4

Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. ( << subject sentance)15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities;( <<< God was not touched with them until Jesus came) but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. << conclusion sentance


the structure of a paragraph, 1st sentance subject sentance, middle sentances body, final sentance conclusion. Both of these paragraphs are structured. the things being said Lead you to the conclusion.


Please consider what this says

 

[posthuman]

the simplest understanding of Gods Word is to believe what is written and pray to Him for understanding daily.

((simplest?))

but amen to the rest, and there you've stated post's "qualifications"

i believe what is written, all of it, and have been praying daily for understanding for almost 30 years, believing what is written, that God "giveth it liberally"

believing all of it, i believe that an understanding which leads to contradiction of scripture is in error. so i believe and understand that an understanding that makes unchanging, omnipotent, omniscient God, Creator of time itself and the human heart itself, unable at some point in time to properly succor man, unable at some point in time to know the heart of man, and God then changing in time to overcome His own inadequacies, is an incorrect understanding.

trying to help you see that too, mate, is all