Not By Works

[FranC]

Yes I think you are right. To me it means as well that all our righteousness comes from Jesus as we have faith in His promises and we allow him to work in us and save us from our sins. God is so good to us because all our righteousness is as filthy rags and we cannot do anything without him. But we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us (Phil 4:13)

God bless

I do want to say that I've been accused here of many things.
One is that I believe righteousness comes of my own "works". (sorry, I don't know another word.)

Of course, we have NO RIGHTEOUSNESS of our own.
It is imputed to us by our Lord. It is HIS righteousness that we have.

How could righteousness be of our own making?
Do persons here not understand that we are speaking about GOD ALMIGHTY,
the maker of all things... What could we possibly do for Him but Love His Son and obey His son.
THAT is our righteousness.

There would be pages to be written on this...

 

[mailmandan]

Who are the Saints?

Rev 14:12,
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

1 John 2:3 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, (demonstrative evidence) if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. BTW the Greek word for "keep" (tereo) means to guard, observe, watch over, properly maintain, keep intact. It does not mean sinless, perfect obedience 100% of the time, as sinless perfectionists teach.

 

[LoveGodForever]

I do want to say that I've been accused here of many things.
One is that I believe righteousness comes of my own "works". (sorry, I don't know another word.)
Of course, we have NO RIGHTEOUSNESS of our own.
It is imputed to us by our Lord. It is HIS righteousness that we have.
How could righteousness be of our own making?
Do persons here not understand that we are speaking about GOD ALMIGHTY,
the maker of all things... What could we possibly do for Him but Love His Son and obey His son.
THAT is our righteousness.
There would be pages to be written on this...

Its ok FranC,

I have been here long enough to know what you mean. I get accused of the same thing. I think people don't take the time to listen to others sometimes to see what they are actually saying and they look at ways to try and make it look like you are saying and believing something you are not. It is a shame really. God can use many people right in front of us to be a blessing and help us to have a closer walk with him. It seems many do not really study God's Word for themselves which is sad. Others not mentioning any names are really good at twisting scripture to make easy things seem as though they are not and calling others names. To me this is not the fruit of the spirit

God bless

 

[FranC]

oh i didnt notice this was a game between you and dcon



cute rules though

J

It's not a game.

I don't consider this a game.

Dcon keeps saying that works don't save us and they don't keep us saved.

I agree. It's not works that do any of that.
However, I do believe that works keep us saved in the sense that when we are a member
of the Kingdom of God, we MUST adhere to the rules of the Kingdom.

He infers and outright states that ONLY FAITH saves.

Fine. So I asked for some verses where JESUS said this. After all, it's JESUS who came here to this earht of ours to teach us how God wants us to BEHAVE and how God wants us TO DO GOOD DEEDS TO BETTER HIS KINGDOM.

You know, a verse that says:
---only have faith in Me and don't do anything I've taught and you'll still be saved---

Know why Dcon will NEVER post it? Because it doesn't exist.
JESUS NEVER said anything like that. ALL He did was to preach and teach about HOW we are to be and to do.

Jesus taught this --- not me.
It's not my fault if works has become a bad word. If someone wants to substitute it with another word, I'm game.
But the word WORKS does not scare me because I know what it means and apparently some here do not.

see? You get the idea...

 

[Grace777x70]

Who are the Saints?

Rev 14:12,
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

What are the commandments of God in the New Covenant? What is the faith of Jesus - that He has redeemed us from the law. That He depended on His Father and now we too depend on Jesus Himself for all things. That all the Law , prophets and Psalms speak of Him.

Galatians 4:4-6 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,

[SUP]5 [/SUP] so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

[SUP]6 [/SUP] Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

Here is an excellent article addressing "Just what are the commandments of Jesus?"

( Hint: it has nothing to do with following the Sabbath day as in the Old Testament way which was a "shadow" of things to come - but it has everything to do with the true Sabbath rest which is found in Christ Himself )

I like to use this site from time to time as it gives a grace-based view of the finished work of Christ. it also has a place at the bottom where people can ask questions. I have found I have learned much from that area too.

John 14:15 – The Commands of Jesus

If God loves us unconditionally, how do we account for those scriptures that link His love with our obedience, like this one:

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” (Jn 14:15)

A legalist reads this backwards: “You will keep my commandments if you love me.”

In other words, we must prove our love for God by doing what He commands.

Commandment-keeping is our duty, a condition we must meet if we are to enjoy His love.

But someone who is walking in grace reads it just as Jesus said it. He understands that keeping His commands is a by-product of love.

Paul explains this in Romans 8:3-4, but let me give you an everyday example inspired by something I read.

"Here in New Zealand we have a big problem with domestic violence. Consequently, there are many laws governing the responsibilities of fathers. Break any of these laws and you might go to jail or have your kids taken away.

It’s a serious business. But to be honest, I couldn’t tell you what these laws are. I’ve never read them. Yet I can confidently declare that I am keeping every one of these laws.

How do I know? Because I love my kids. I don’t keep the laws to show the authorities that I love my kids and I don’t relate to my children on the basis of these laws. I relate to them on the basis of love and keeping the laws of the land flows naturally from that love relationship.

I know the laws serve a good purpose, but they weren’t written for me. They were written for fathers who don’t love their kids."

Similarly, the laws found in the Bible were not written for those who love Jesus (1 Tim 1:9). Contrary to what the legalist may tell you, keeping the laws to earn what He freely offers is a surefire sign that you don’t know the love of God.

A legalist reads the words of Jesus above and sees a threat. Do the commandments or else! But love makes no threats. Jesus is returning for a bride and it won’t be a shotgun wedding.

What are the commands of Jesus?

The next time someone tells you that you must keep the commands of Jesus to prove your love, ask them, “what are the commands of Jesus?”

They will probably respond with the greatest commandment which is, “love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind and soul” (Mt 22:38). This is fine, I guess.

But if you insert that command into the phrase above it becomes, “If you love me, you will love me with all your heart, mind and soul,” which is kind of redundant.

If you read John 14:15 in context, you will see that on this occasion Jesus is referring to two specific commands. Here’s the first:

“A new command I give you: Love one another….” (Jn 13:34)

And here’s the second:

“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me… Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves” (Jn 14:1,11)

How can we be certain that these are His commandments? Because John – who was there when Jesus spoke these words – says so in one of his letters:

“And this is His command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as He commanded us.” (1 Jn 3:23)

What does it mean to keep His commands?

Lest we dilute His commandments to accommodate our experience, Jesus outlines His expectations of obedience for both. Here’s what He expects from the first:

“As I have loved you, so you must love one another.” (Jn 13:34)

How did Jesus love us? By laying down His life for us (Jn 15:3). That’s a high standard of love! Indeed, there is no greater love. And what are His expectations regarding the second commandment:

“I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these…” (Jn 14:12)

Believe in Jesus and you will do the works of Jesus. Put it altogether and Jesus is saying this:

“If you love me, you will love one another as I have loved you and your faith in me will lead to miracles like I have been doing and greater miracles still.”

If you’ve been in any church for at least five years, you will know that Jesus’ first commandment is pretty much humanly impossible to keep, while the second commandment is definitely impossible.

So the next time someone tries to lay a heavy burden on you by telling you that you must keep Jesus’ commandments to earn God’s love, just ask them how many people they’ve raised from the dead!

When they look puzzled, tell them that Jesus commanded us to believe in Him and He said that those who did would do the same works He did and greater works besides!

Now that we begin to understand what Jesus wasn’t saying – He wasn’t saying that we need to keep His commandments to prove our love – we’re ready to dig deeper into what He was saying.

That’s the subject of the next post. You won’t want to miss it. When you see what Jesus was promising His disciples and you, it’s going to blow you away!

Maybe you’ve been intimidated by John 14:15 and the other new covenant laws. If so, prepare to be set free. When you get a hold of the words of Jesus you’re going to be so pumped that you’ll want to frame them and hang them on your wall. Stay tuned!

Unquote:

Here is the link if anyone wants to look at the questions or to see the next post as he mentioned at the end of the article.

https://escapetoreality.org/2011/06/03/john-14v15/

 

[mailmandan]

The beam (Matt 7:3)

Practice what you preach.

 

[mailmandan]

Or it could make false teachers from false teachings

That's where discernment comes in.

 

[Rosemaryx]

Well...the answer is to preach and teach the gospel of the grace of God in Christ's finished work. All of us need to hear of Him!

Romans 10:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

2 Peter 1:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;

Good morning Grace from sunny England...I love Romans 10:17 because this is how i believe my son who is doing life in prison ( minimum 16 yrs ) has come to know our Savior...Since i been saved, my letters to my son used to be trying to change my son from behind the walls, trying this and trying that, nothing worked, then once saved i started writing to my son with different words, my words were about Jesus, every letter i sent i would tell him how Jesus is changing my life, at first he did not respond to my letters, he couldn't because he was not filled with the Holy Spirit, i did not understand that was the reason he had no grasp to what i was writing, but moving on to the here and now, my son is saved Praise God \o/, through me writing my letters from the word, explaining to my son with Scripture why i can no longer support him in actions he wanted me to, ie sending money to fill his drug habit, the word of God that i gave to him weekly has paid of, i never thought i would see the day my son would be saved, all through the hearing of the Word...Today my son writes to me about our Lord, the Lord has broken my son and put him on his knees, my son has cried tears on the phone to me, sobbing saying how God has took over his life, he still falls as we all do, but this time he has our Lord to pick him up...Just a little story for me to tell about Romans 10:17 lol......xox...

 

[Grace777x70]

I'm afraid for all these people in this thread who are teaching Christians to take false comfort in a faith without works relationship with God. We've warned them, so they will have no excuse on the Day of Judgment when Christ holds them accountable for teaching his people it's okay to have a faith that does nothing.

No, what they are teaching Christians is to rely on Christ's work alone for salvation. His life will bear good fruit as we feed Christians the proper nutrients of His grace and love for them.

Workers of lawlessness are those that are depending on their good works for salvation - that's why Jesus called them "workers of iniquity" in Matt. 7:23

People that advocate that they lose salvation are telling people that their loving Father will throw His beloved children that have been redeemed by the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ into hell if they don't do enough works. That's an anti-Christ belief system that denies the whole nature of our Father and Lord and violates the whole "why" of the gospel in the first place.

The false doctrine that our Father throws His beloved children into hell is what the outcome is of this "we must do enough good works in order to keep one saved." There is no other outcome.

Why not preach Christ and Him crucified and us crucified with Him so that people can grow up in Him? Then they will have His life manifesting out to others so that they can see the love and grace our loving Father and Lord have for them.

 

[LoveGodForever]

That's where discernment comes in.

Or its the blind leading the blind

 

[Grace777x70]

Good morning Grace from sunny England...I love Romans 10:17 because this is how i believe my son who is doing life in prison ( minimum 16 yrs ) has come to know our Savior...Since i been saved, my letters to my son used to be trying to change my son from behind the walls, trying this and trying that, nothing worked, then once saved i started writing to my son with different words, my words were about Jesus, every letter i sent i would tell him how Jesus is changing my life, at first he did not respond to my letters, he couldn't because he was not filled with the Holy Spirit, i did not understand that was the reason he had no grasp to what i was writing, but moving on to the here and now, my son is saved Praise God \o/, through me writing my letters from the word, explaining to my son with Scripture why i can no longer support him in actions he wanted me to, ie sending money to fill his drug habit, the word of God that i gave to him weekly has paid of, i never thought i would see the day my son would be saved, all through the hearing of the Word...Today my son writes to me about our Lord, the Lord has broken my son and put him on his knees, my son has cried tears on the phone to me, sobbing saying how God has took over his life, he still falls as we all do, but this time he has our Lord to pick him up...Just a little story for me to tell about Romans 10:17 lol......xox...

Good morning or good afternoon for you in sunny England.

Great story - our Lord will be faithful to your son. God in His greatness can take any bad situation and have His purposes come forth. That's what makes God - God.

The accurate preaching and teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ is paramount so that we Christians can grow in His grace. Replacing Christ Himself for religious practices has a grace-nullifying effect on us Christians.

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

Hi J

Dcon sure does get a lot of help!

But the above will not help him.
He knows the rules, you don't...
Here are the rules:

1. The verse or verses has to be JESUS saying that works are not necessary or required or however that could be said.
Or it has to be JESUS saying that He only requires us to believe in Him and nothing else is necessary for salvation.

2. If John 6:28-29 is used (as you have done) then along with the verse a complete explanation of what BELIEVE means.


So your post above, although very lovely and I do love scripture, will not be acceptable.
Sorry.

I mean, if you care to really do this, then explain what BELIEVE means.
You'll find that it means OBEY. So it won't work (John 6:28-29). But you could try...

I'm sure Dcon thanks you for the effort !

Hey fran, they are playing your song!

[video=youtube;pHGXwQeUk7M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHGXwQeUk7M[/video]

Strong's 4761
strebloó: to twist

2 Peter 3:16
As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

​

 

[mailmandan]

Or its the blind leading the blind

John 9:40 - Those of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things and said to Him, "We are not blind too, are we?" 41 Jesus said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains.

 

[trofimus]

Wow, this thread is as long as 25 Bibles.

Do you really still argue about works?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Originally Posted by FranC

Yes. Works are necessary to remain saved.

J is an act of God.
S requires the cooperation of man. That means works.

Could we stop working and be saved??
I posted Revelation.
I posted chapters of Mathew, Jesus' own words.
I posted John 14:15

How about 2 Peter 2:20-22

We're either working for God
or working for the enemy

There are two gates, a narrow gate and a wide gate.
Did Jesus say there is a third gate?

We're either with God, following HIS rules,
or we're with the enemy.

I don't see the problem in saying works keep us saved.

Following Jesus keeps us saved.

Believing in Jesus keeps us saved.
What does BELIEF mean?

You nailed it! That is what Catholicism teaches. They try to "shoe horn" works "into" belief and basically define belief/faith as works, so salvation through faith turns into salvation by works. sigh

They use the term "faith working in love" as a means to get around the fact they teach salvation by works.

 

[Rosemaryx]

Its ok FranC,

I have been here long enough to know what you mean. I get accused of the same thing. I think people don't take the time to listen to others sometimes to see what they are actually saying and they look at ways to try and make it look like you are saying and believing something you are not. It is a shame really. God can use many people right in front of us to be a blessing and help us to have a closer walk with him. It seems many do not really study God's Word for themselves which is sad. Others not mentioning any names are really good at twisting scripture to make easy things seem as though they are not and calling others names. To me this is not the fruit of the spirit

God bless

Hi LoveGodForever...I believe well learned people in the Word can believe they know Scripture by heart so feel no need to go back and look at the Scriptures again...I don`t have a great amount of knowledge of the Word yet, but what i have found is that when i have thought i believe a Scripture for what it says, i re read it and get a completely different message from when i read it the first time, this showed me that what we read we must not just take the first meaning and leave it at that, once i re read, only when i know the Scripture has been written on my heart by the Holy Spirit can i walk on and learn some more, that is what the Holy Spirit has shown me any way, maybe that is why people twist Scriptures, because the real answer has not been written on their heart, it`s just my opinion for all of us...xox...

 

[mailmandan]

Wow, this thread is as long as 25 Bibles.

Do you really still argue about works?

That salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works is not hard to understand. It's just hard for many people to ACCEPT. It's a shame that human pride will not allow many people to receive Christ. Their hands are full of their works and they will not let go in order to take hold of Christ through FAITH.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Amen...not to mention that in Acts they met daily.....anyday is a good day to worship God....

They also met in homes Not in fancy "houses of God"

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Who are the Saints?

Rev 14:12,
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

As apposed to the non saints, who do not keep the commands.

Saints are not saints BECAUSE they keep the commands, they keep the commands BECAUSE they are saints.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You cannot see the wind (John 3:8)

Your right, SO you can not know where obedience comes from.

It does not come from self. Self can ot obey, Self can only serve self (the flesh)

Only the spirit can bring one to a desire to obey, s they desire to serve others.