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Well dagallen, if you want to use that argument then did Thomas lie when he declared and identified Jesus Christ as his "Lord and God" at John 20:28? Did the Apostle Paul lie at Titus 2:13 when he identified Jesus Christ as God? Or how about the Apostle Peter at 2 Peter 1:1 when he said this?
"Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness OF OUR GOD AND SAVIOR, JESUS CHRIST." So are these Apostle lying dagallen? And it's really apparent that you don't have a "faith of the same kind as ours, now do you dagallen?"
So for a change dagallen, instead bringing up other questions how about addressing why these three Apostles said Jesus Christ is God? This in light of the fact that there is only one God and this one God is the only God we are to worship. Why don't you accept this truth dagallen?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
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Dagallen
Guest
I will end this day on a note, wishing everyone the best ! John 16:25 These things I have spoken unto you in proverbs but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs but I shall show you plainly of the Father. John 17:3 And this is life eternal that they might know You the only true God and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent. ( read the pray of Christ to the only true God, his Father, John 17: 1 through 26, as he show plainly of his Father who is the only true God. My God bless all !
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Dagallen
Guest
Well dagallen, if you want to use that argument then did Thomas lie when he declared and identified Jesus Christ as his "Lord and God" at John 20:28? Did the Apostle Paul lie at Titus 2:13 when he identified Jesus Christ as God? Or how about the Apostle Peter at 2 Peter 1:1 when he said this?
"Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness OF OUR GOD AND SAVIOR, JESUS CHRIST." So are these Apostle lying dagallen? And it's really apparent that you don't have a "faith of the same kind as ours, now do you dagallen?"
So for a change dagallen, instead bringing up other questions how about addressing why these three Apostles said Jesus Christ is God? This in light of the fact that there is only one God and this one God is the only God we are to worship. Why don't you accept this truth dagallen?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
You still don't get the meaning of the word ( and ) I made my final post for today, you should read it with an open mind, the pray of Christ, his Father the only true God. John 17: 1 through 26. Have a good night !
You did not read my post? Thats a pity, I try to have my posts simple and readable.
"But about the Son he says, 'Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever'." (Heb 1:8)
I hope you will not try to advocate that it must be said in gospels and other books of Scripture are irrelevant. Sorry, my New testament does not have 4 books only.
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OK, whatever, but do you have any view that is biblical and alternative to Trinity? It must not contradict Scriptures and it must take into consideration all Scriptures.
You are similar to somebody attacking the law of gravity, but having no other working explanation of what is experienced.
Although Jesus never claimed to be God, as Jehovah’s appointed ruler he is identified in Isaiah’s prophecy by the terms “Mighty God” and “Prince of Peace.” Isaiah’s prophecy adds: “To the abundance of the princely rule and to peace there will be no end.” (Isaiah 9:6, 7) So, as the “Prince”—the son of the Great King, Jehovah—Jesus will serve as Ruler of the heavenly government of “God Almighty.”—Exodus 6:3.
Yet, a person may ask, ‘In what sense is Jesus a “Mighty God,” and didn’t the apostle John say that Jesus is himself God?’ In the King James version of the Bible, John 1:1 reads: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Some argue that this means that “the Word,” who was born on earth as the baby Jesus, is Almighty God himself. Is this true?
If this verse were interpreted to mean Jesus was himself God Almighty, it would contradict the preceding statement, “the Word was with God.” Someone who is “with” another person cannot be the same as that other person. Many Bible translations thus draw a distinction, making clear that the Word was not God Almighty. For example, a sampling of Bible translations say the following: “The Word was a God,” “a god was the Word,” and “the Word was divine.”*
Bible verses that in the Greek language have a construction similar to that of John 1:1 use the expression “a god.” For example, when referring to Herod Agrippa I, the crowds shouted: ‘It is a god speaking.’ And when Paul survived a bite by a poisonous snake, the people said: “He is a god.” (Acts 12:22; 28:3-6) It is in harmony with both Greek grammar and Bible teaching to speak of the Word as, not God, but “a god.”—John 1:1.
Consider how John identified “the Word” in the first chapter of his Gospel. “The Word became flesh and resided among us,” he wrote, “and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs [not to God but] to an only-begotten son from a father.” So “the Word,” who became flesh, lived on the earth as the man Jesus and was seen by people. Therefore, he could not have been Almighty God, regarding whom John says: “No man has seen God at any time.”—John 1:14, 18.
‘Why, then,’ one may ask, ‘did Thomas exclaim when seeing the resurrected Jesus, “My Lord and my God!”?’ As already noted, Jesus is a god in the sense of being divine, but he is not the Father. Jesus had just told Mary Magdalene: “I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.” Remember, too, why John wrote his Gospel. Three verses after the account about Thomas, John explained that he wrote so that people “may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God”—not that he is God.—John 20:17, 28, 31.
Yet, a person may ask, ‘In what sense is Jesus a “Mighty God,” and didn’t the apostle John say that Jesus is himself God?’ In the King James version of the Bible, John 1:1 reads: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Some argue that this means that “the Word,” who was born on earth as the baby Jesus, is Almighty God himself. Is this true?
If this verse were interpreted to mean Jesus was himself God Almighty, it would contradict the preceding statement, “the Word was with God.” Someone who is “with” another person cannot be the same as that other person. Many Bible translations thus draw a distinction, making clear that the Word was not God Almighty. For example, a sampling of Bible translations say the following: “The Word was a God,” “a god was the Word,” and “the Word was divine.”*
Bible verses that in the Greek language have a construction similar to that of John 1:1 use the expression “a god.” For example, when referring to Herod Agrippa I, the crowds shouted: ‘It is a god speaking.’ And when Paul survived a bite by a poisonous snake, the people said: “He is a god.” (Acts 12:22; 28:3-6) It is in harmony with both Greek grammar and Bible teaching to speak of the Word as, not God, but “a god.”—John 1:1.
Consider how John identified “the Word” in the first chapter of his Gospel. “The Word became flesh and resided among us,” he wrote, “and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs [not to God but] to an only-begotten son from a father.” So “the Word,” who became flesh, lived on the earth as the man Jesus and was seen by people. Therefore, he could not have been Almighty God, regarding whom John says: “No man has seen God at any time.”—John 1:14, 18.
‘Why, then,’ one may ask, ‘did Thomas exclaim when seeing the resurrected Jesus, “My Lord and my God!”?’ As already noted, Jesus is a god in the sense of being divine, but he is not the Father. Jesus had just told Mary Magdalene: “I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.” Remember, too, why John wrote his Gospel. Three verses after the account about Thomas, John explained that he wrote so that people “may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God”—not that he is God.—John 20:17, 28, 31.
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Dagallen
Guest
Do you know what the word ( proverb ) means ? Do you know what the word ( and ) means ? If you don't know the meaning when used, then looking at Hebrews 1:8 would be a waste of time or any other passage. Now the pray of Christ, within it, Christ in no way says that he is God, in it, there is no trinity concept, within it he does not use any of the proverbs but speaks plainly of who the only true God is, who does he show is the only true God ? His Father ! I did not write his pray, however it is what he says it is, you can accept what he says plainly or you can reject what he says plainly, clearly you don't understand what a proverb is or why they were used. John 17: 1 through 26 you really should read it.
Are you talking to me? What "proverb"? What "pray"?
You are avoiding the answer again,trying to hide behind a nonsense talk.
Let us see if Jaybird is more sincere and has some working alternative to Trinity.
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Actually bronson, that's not entirely true. God spoke audibly to humans at Exodus 20:22, Exodus 3:4 and at Deuteronomy 5:24 and vs26 which references God speaking audibly to humans at Exodus 3:4. Furthermore, God appeared physcially at Genesis 17:1,2 as well as other places.
The bottom line with dagallen is he flat out denies the deity of Jesus Christ. And one more thing for your information this is not about the Trinity, it's all about who is Jesus Christ. You cannot deny His deity and be a Christian, period.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Bumped for bronson. What say you bronson?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
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Dagallen
Guest
If you interpret John 10 "the Father and I are one," as proof of the Trinity then who would you interpret when Jesus asks believers to be one with Jesus just as the Father and Son are one (also in John 10).
My Bible has 66 books (when I do not count DT books), not just several parts from gospels.
If you cant answer my questions and if you cant post any alternative theory to Trinity that does not contradict anything from Scriptures, then this discussion does not seem to have any meaning.
1 John 5:7 (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) is not in the modern translations therefore it was added by the Textus Receptus which was compiled by Erasmus which was the text for the King James Bible. This verse isn't in modern bibles.
Deuteronomy 32:8-9, "The Most High God divided the nations (the Catholic Bible follows the Septuagint better than the Protestant) according to the sons of God. YHWH's portion is Israel."
My interpretation: YHWH can be the Father or the Son (exception is Psalms 110:1). Jesus is the God of Israel (Isaiah 40). Before or after Him there is no other.
The Most High God (the Father) is over all nations.
The third temptation after Jesus' baptism (the devil says to Jesus, "worship me then I will give you all the kingdoms."
A real temptation of bluster? In other words, was Jesus the King of kings or does he become the King of kings after the Most High puts Jesus' enemies under Him? (Psalms 110:1).
Your imagination and interpretation is wrong.
John 3:16 - God has given his only begotten Son. Jesus is not one of many. And He is given for the whole world. He is not any local god over Israel only.
John 1 - Everything was created through Jesus.
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So again, do you have any alternative theory to Trinity that actually holds a minute?
Jesus was slowly revealing Himself to those to whom the Father gave understanding. There is no other explanation for most of the below statements than that He was God. The Apostles saw it, the Scribes did not.
Mat 3:17 and lo, a voice out of the heavens, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Matt 11:27 All things have been delivered to me by my Father: and no one knows the Son, except the Father; neither does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and he to whomever the Son wills to reveal him.
Mat 28:19 Go you therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:
Joh 5:21-23 For as the Father raises the dead and quickens them, even so the Son also quickens whom he will. For neither does the Father judge any man, but he has given all judgment to the Son; that all may honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He who honours not the Son honours not the Father who sent him.
Joh 8:12 Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, I am the light of the world: he who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Joh 10:27-30 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.
Joh 12:44-45 And Jesus cried and said, He who believes on me, believes not on me, but on Him who sent me. And he that sees me sees Him who sent me.
Joh 14:7-11 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also: from henceforth you know him, and have seen him. Philip says to him, Lord, show us the Father, and it suffices us. Jesus says to him, Have I been so long time with you, and do you not know me, Philip? he who has seen me has seen the Father; how do you say, Show us the Father? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say to you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me does his works.
Joh 15:23 He who hates me hates my Father also.
Joh 16:14-15 He shall glorify me: for he shall take of mine, and shall declare it to you. All things whatever the Father has are mine: therefore said I, that he takes of mine, and shall declare it to you.
Joh 17:4-5 I glorified you on the earth, having accomplished the work which you have given me to do. And now, O Father, you glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world was.
Joh 20:28 Thomas answered and said to him, My Lord and my God.
Mat 3:17 and lo, a voice out of the heavens, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Matt 11:27 All things have been delivered to me by my Father: and no one knows the Son, except the Father; neither does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and he to whomever the Son wills to reveal him.
Mat 28:19 Go you therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:
Joh 5:21-23 For as the Father raises the dead and quickens them, even so the Son also quickens whom he will. For neither does the Father judge any man, but he has given all judgment to the Son; that all may honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He who honours not the Son honours not the Father who sent him.
Joh 8:12 Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, I am the light of the world: he who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Joh 10:27-30 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.
Joh 12:44-45 And Jesus cried and said, He who believes on me, believes not on me, but on Him who sent me. And he that sees me sees Him who sent me.
Joh 14:7-11 If you had known me, you would have known my Father also: from henceforth you know him, and have seen him. Philip says to him, Lord, show us the Father, and it suffices us. Jesus says to him, Have I been so long time with you, and do you not know me, Philip? he who has seen me has seen the Father; how do you say, Show us the Father? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say to you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me does his works.
Joh 15:23 He who hates me hates my Father also.
Joh 16:14-15 He shall glorify me: for he shall take of mine, and shall declare it to you. All things whatever the Father has are mine: therefore said I, that he takes of mine, and shall declare it to you.
Joh 17:4-5 I glorified you on the earth, having accomplished the work which you have given me to do. And now, O Father, you glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world was.
Joh 20:28 Thomas answered and said to him, My Lord and my God.
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Dagallen
Guest
I think you got it backwards, John 17: 1 through 26 is the right belief, as the trinity is the alternative you give and the Trinity does contradict John 17:1 through 26 if you can't show a trinity in John 17: 1 through 26 then you have nothing to stand on, what you fail to understand is, I am not the one pushing that Jesus is God himself, that's you, it's therefore up to you to prove your point.
There is no alternative to the trinity, just as there is no alternative to any lie.