Not By Works

[eternally-gratefull]

Not easy to do a real study.
It's easier just to claim someone is wrong.

Problem is that I'm right.
Believe and Obey come from the same Greek root word.

Do you wonder why Grace777 and Mailmandan, our two Greek experts, did not JUMP on this to disclaim me?

BECAUSE THEY CAN'T. Because I'm right.

IF you BELIEVE you also OBEY.

1st off, You did not say this, You said the words come from the same "root" word.

2nd. You were wrong, as I already proved, they do not come from the same root word, they come from different root words. Anyone who understands language and rules understands this.

3rd. Your correct. If we believe (Have faith, not just mere belief), we obey, I have stated this thousands of times,, Yet you seem to think I believe otherwise.

but just because the fact that all who believe will obey does not mean they come from the same root word.

as for MM and grace.. Maybe they did not answer because you are not talking to them, you are talking to me..

This is why OBEY is a favorite word of mine.

I love my husband.
I obey my husband.

I love my parents.
I obeyed my parents.

I love Jesus.
I obey Jesus.

IF I DON'T OBEY JESUS, IT MEANS I DON'T LOVE HIM.

§What's so difficult to understand?

IF I DON'T OBEY HIM because apparently I don't LOVE HIM,
Then do I have faith in Him?
Do I believe in Him?
Am I walking with Him?

NO!

Faith is my favorite word.

As The bible says, without faith (pistis) we can not please him, We can obey all we want (see pharisees and religious people who obey commands, but do not have faith at all) and yet they will never displease God, because they have faith in their works, Not in God. ..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Believe and OBEY don't come from the same Greek word..

Perhaps it would help if you could tell us which Greek word you mean and the associated Bible verses?.

Strong's Greek: 5218. ὑπακοή (hupakoé) -- obedience

5218. hupakoé ►
Strong's Concordance
hupakoé: obedience
Original Word: ὑπακοή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: hupakoé
Phonetic Spelling: (hoop-ak-o-ay')
Short Definition: obedience
Definition: obedience, submissiveness, compliance.

Greek Concordance: πιστεύων (pisteuōn) -- 24 Occurrences

Amen

the root word used for faith/believe is pistis

the root word for obedience is hypakoe

The way the word is used depends on how the root is changed, like in your example. pisteuon is a derivative of the root word pistis.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In a place it says "the obedience of faith."
To me, this is to say faith is an obedience.
I agree with you and fran that faith is not a "work" in the way some people use the word "work". To link continuing in faith/abiding to works of the flesh is perplexing to me. It appears to me like sometimes some people are saying continuing in faith is not necessary, but so much of what our Lord said goes against that thought.

I can't understand the thought that having trust/faith is simply believing you will live forever but that believing everything else He said is not necessary.

to say continue is faith means faith comes from self. from out own power. and is based on ourself. And not based on the one we are having faith in.

that makes it a work.

A work is anything which comes from self. which is for self (ie, I am taking care of my own needs)

to say we must continue in faith is basically saying as long as the person I have faith in does what I want, I will trust him, but the second he stops. I will take my faith and put it in something that will take care of what I want (selfish desires, not actual needs, because God will always take care of our needs, He will not always give us what we desire, he knows us better than we know ourself. and he knows what is best)

so one must ask, if a person had this kind of faith to begin with, did they ever have faith in God? No. They just for an amount of time thought God would give them what they desire, so they decided to try this faith thing out. Once they realized God will not give them all they want, the reason for their faith ceased, and they fall away..

True repentance leads to true saving faith that is not self seeking, and thus will never fade away, Because it never seeks for self. it relys on God to know what is best for us, and may weaken, or vary, but will never fade away, because God NEVER does us wrong..

Only if we are selfish and seeking selfish desires will we ever stop trusting God because God never promised to give us everything we want,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

to say continue is faith means faith comes from self. from out own power. and is based on ourself. And not based on the one we are having faith in.

that makes it a work.

A work is anything which comes from self. which is for self (ie, I am taking care of my own needs)

to say we must continue in faith is basically saying as long as the person I have faith in does what I want, I will trust him, but the second he stops. I will take my faith and put it in something that will take care of what I want (selfish desires, not actual needs, because God will always take care of our needs, He will not always give us what we desire, he knows us better than we know ourself. and he knows what is best)

so one must ask, if a person had this kind of faith to begin with, did they ever have faith in God? No. They just for an amount of time thought God would give them what they desire, so they decided to try this faith thing out. Once they realized God will not give them all they want, the reason for their faith ceased, and they fall away..

True repentance leads to true saving faith that is not self seeking, and thus will never fade away, Because it never seeks for self. it relys on God to know what is best for us, and may weaken, or vary, but will never fade away, because God NEVER does us wrong..

Only if we are selfish and seeking selfish desires will we ever stop trusting God because God never promised to give us everything we want,

to add, selfish faith is the worlds faith, that is why people can appear to be best friends for years, then never want to see each other again, We give our faith as long as the person satisfies our selfish needs and desires, the moment they start to let us down, that faith is taken back, and if the other person stops feeding us at all, that faith is completely removed. and our love for that friend turns to hate,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes I am Dcon gal supposedly and we are also un-Christlike, we do not even rise to the standard of a good catholic

Thats like saying we do not rise to the standard of a good jew in christs day.

I would take that as a compliment. The good jews rejected grace, and had Christ crucified.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I heard that, I am in Australia right now...been eating like a bush pig hahahha......such excellent food and coffee

I just had a bad blood report on sugar and cholesteral. Having to change my diet, I am starving!! lol

 

[preacher4truth]

Actually you can't!
You only think you can...
Nobody can - except God Himself!
God is the only one who knows who are His.
Your idea of fruit may not be God's idea.

Stop trying to be a fruit counter...

Yup...way above his pay grade.

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

Allow me to advise you of something Mr. Royalscot

CATHOLICS have a Whole lot more of the Holy Spirit than some on this thread who don't even like Catholics.
And that includes YOU, I'm sorry to say.

I'm sure everyone here knows what a person living with the Spirit of God acts like, and not all here act like that.

Matthew 7:15-17
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

Matthew 7:4-5
Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

 

[gb9]

I just had a bad blood report on sugar and cholesteral. Having to change my diet, I am starving!! lol

if you have not, try taking omega 3 fish oil ( they have no flavor ) pills. works wonders for cholesteral.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

if you have not, try taking omega 3 fish oil ( they have no flavor ) pills. works wonders for cholesteral.

Thanks bro, I will give it a try!!

 

[mailmandan]

These scriptures you quoted are a very important part of the Gospel (Good News) but friend it does not end there. What was Jesus preaching after His Baptism by John? The "Gospel" my friend was being preached before the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus (go see; Mark 1:15; 8:35; Matt4:23; Matt 9:35; 11:5; 24:14; Luke 4:18; 7:22; 20:11). The Good New (Gospel) is Jesus and Jesus is the Word of God. It is the Word of God that is the Gospel that we are to live by every word of it not just some we like to cheery pick because it suits us . (Matt 4:4; John 1-1-4; John 3:16).

Jesus was preaching the Gospel of the kingdom to the Jews prior to the New Covenant. Mark 8:35 makes a distinction between Jesus AND the Gospel. So Jesus Himself is not the Gospel, although the Gospel is about Jesus and the Gospel is not the entire Word of God, although the Gospel is included in the Word of God. Your argument about the Gospel is a scheme to teach salvation by works. It's you who likes to cherry pick because it suits you, but you failed to rightly divide the word of truth.

In the New Covenant, Paul preached the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) which is the power of God unto salvation for everyone who BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16).

In Ephesians 3, we read 1. For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power.

Galatians 1:11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ. This was a mystery prior to Paul.

 

[mailmandan]

A faith that does not produce good fruit or works is a dead faith...,true or false?

A faith that produces no works at all is not genuine faith, but an empty profession of faith/dead faith (James 2:14). All those with genuine faith are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful.

 

[PHart]

works are not required for salvation period. Only work that was required was the work of the cross.

Works are not required for JUSTIFICATION. That is what is "apart from works" (Romans 4:6) means.

...because of the above, they work.

Correct. Now you know how and why works are required in salvation.

If you get to the resurrection as a field filled with thorns and thistles and no fruit, you will be burned up, not saved. Justification MUST produce work or you do not have, or lost along the way, justification in Christ apart from works. You yourself said work comes from being justified.

Sorry, But if Eternal Security in Christ is not true, that says man must have his part in salvation, which means salvation can be lost if man does not do his part.

Thats works, and man can take credit or boast of his saving work..

If the exact same believing you started out with and which continues today is a work of the damnable works gospel then it was a damnable work of the works gospel when you first started that believing.

EG, was your believing the day you started it a work that earned justification? Of course, you'll say, 'no'. Then how is that exact same believing all of a sudden now, today, a work that earns justification????? What makes that exact same believing you started yesterday a work of the damnable works gospel today???? That is the question you have to answer.

You are assigning faith in Christ to the works side of the 'faith vs. works' argument. Paul did not do that. In fact, he said the EXACT OPPOSITE--faith is exactly opposed to working to save yourself. But if you want to insist that my continued believing that I started years ago and which continues today is now me trying to save myself with my works all you have to do is post that scripture that says that and I will admit I was wrong and I will go home and never post in a Christian forum ever again.

 

[PHart]

A faith that produces no works at all is not genuine faith, but an empty profession of faith/dead faith (James 2:14). All those with genuine faith are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful.

Good, then you too believe that works are required in salvation.
They don't earn that salvation. They are inextricably connected to salvation as you yourself are expressing.

Why is this discussion continuing? We all agree on this point. (Well, except for the H-gracers, of course, lol).

 

[TheRealRalph]

BEHOLD


Ralph is here, now bring forth your questions and I will answer them one by one.

 

[Stephen63]

It's like deja vu all over again...
We've had this discussion before. I cannot understand making remaining in trust a "work" as you define "work." Remaining in trust is a necessity. I can't comprehend using trust to save someone and then that someone dumps the trust after they get eternal life.

I find that there are some that says what Jesus taught before the cross is OT & isn't useful.

There are others that say Jesus' actions before the cross are the same.

These are ploys to keep us from looking at Jesus & his teachings for guidance, for He contradicts their false teaching.

1 Peter 2​

21For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps, 22WHO COMMITTED NO SIN, NOR WAS ANY DECEIT FOUND IN HIS MOUTH; 23and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously;

Remaining in trust IS a necessity, because the just shall LIVE by faith.

If any of our teaching confuses you, cast it all aside & pray, asking the Father to clarify His truth to you, for God is faithful that promised.

Let God be true, & every man a liar.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Works are not required for JUSTIFICATION. That is what is "apart from works" (Romans 4:6) means.

Justification IS salvation.

Thats your problem, you do not understand what salvation is.

Correct. Now you know how and why works are required in salvation.

If works are required, we are saved by works not grace. PERIOD. Why do you think you can save yourself?

If you get to the resurrection as a field filled with thorns and thistles and no fruit, you will be burned up, not saved. Justification MUST produce work or you do not have, or lost along the way, justification in Christ apart from works. You yourself said work comes from being justified.

My work may be burnt, but I will be saved, even though as through fire.

You have justification and sanctification mixed up

If the exact same believing you started out with and which continues today is a work of the damnable works gospel then it was a damnable work of the works gospel when you first started that believing.

How many times do you people have to be shown John 6, where jesus, when asked what work one must do to do the work of God which leads to life, responded by saying IT IS THE WORK OF GOD WE BELIEVE IN THE ONE HE SENT.

faiht is not a work, if it was, God could not say we are saved by faith NOT works.

EG, was your believing the day you started it a work that earned justification? Of course, you'll say, 'no'. Then how is that exact same believing all of a sudden is now a work that earns justification????? What makes that exact same believing you started yesterday a work of the damnable works gospel today???? That is the question you have to answer.

You are assigning faith in Christ to the works side of the 'faith vs. works' argument. Paul did not do that. In fact, he said the EXACT OPPOSITE--faith is exactly opposed to working to save yourself. But if you want to insist that my continued believing that I started years ago and which continues today is now me trying to save myself with my works all you have to do is post that scripture that says that and I will admit I was wrong and I will go home and never post in a Christian forum ever again.

If you think you can lose salvation, Your dependent on something from self. Your not dependent on God.

Plain and simple.. It is not hard to understand..

 

[tourist]

BEHOLD


Ralph is here, now bring forth your questions and I will answer them one by one.

What is the purpose of your coming here? Regardless, glad to have you join us. Welcome to CC.

 

[PHart]

Justification IS salvation.

Thats your problem, you do not understand what salvation is.

You need to be justified to be saved.
But please, if you are sure they are exactly the same thing, post some definitions so we can all see that.

And please, get rid of the bold/blue font and talk like a normal person. You're a very angry person and when you bring that spirit into the discussion it affects the rest of us.

 

[Stephen63]

What is a good work?

Is it not either:

1) Loving one another
2) Loving God

Proper good works IS loving God, because Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments".

We're not talking about just moral good works, because any old sinner can do that.

It's about the good works that God requires of us.

These same good works are also loving one another, because God will lead us to minister to one another.

"Bear ye one another's burdens, & fulfill the Law of Christ."