Not By Works
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1 Corinthians 13:3 (NASB)
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
Without Him - we can do nothing.
But with Him - we can do all things and we over-whelmingly conquer in all situations.
All good works that are birthed from Him - these are the good works that bring reward.
The number 1 good work - is to believe in Christ's finished work on the cross andresurrection!
Without that foundation - we are not building on Him but on our version of Him and our mis-applying of His words to try to create a works-based religion that nullifies the very grace of God that is in Christ alone from operating in our lives like it was meant to.
[SUP]3 [/SUP] And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
Without Him - we can do nothing.
But with Him - we can do all things and we over-whelmingly conquer in all situations.
All good works that are birthed from Him - these are the good works that bring reward.
The number 1 good work - is to believe in Christ's finished work on the cross andresurrection!
Without that foundation - we are not building on Him but on our version of Him and our mis-applying of His words to try to create a works-based religion that nullifies the very grace of God that is in Christ alone from operating in our lives like it was meant to.
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I have not studied this ..but thank you for sharing.
I have always wondered about this passage and this makes this sense that it is not that the worms are immortal but rather they will always be present ...the people of Jesus's day would have understood this considering how they disposed of garbage at that time.
I have always wondered about this passage and this makes this sense that it is not that the worms are immortal but rather they will always be present ...the people of Jesus's day would have understood this considering how they disposed of garbage at that time.
Please read my post again.
Please don't mock persons that are trying not to do those things you listed.
WHY ARE YOU ENCOURAGING BAD BEHAVIOR???
THIS was my question.
I said that Christians I know try not to do those things.
YOU are writing as if they WERE NORMAL to do.
There'a a difference.
Would you care to explain what you really meant?
Seems just by reading, that you're saying it's OK to sin.
Please don't mock persons that are trying not to do those things you listed.
WHY ARE YOU ENCOURAGING BAD BEHAVIOR???
THIS was my question.
I said that Christians I know try not to do those things.
YOU are writing as if they WERE NORMAL to do.
There'a a difference.
Would you care to explain what you really meant?
Seems just by reading, that you're saying it's OK to sin.
P
The people you minister to who make it through the Judgement are the crown that we will exult in in the Kingdom:
That's why it's important that you have good doctrine and purposely seek to prepare people for the Day of Judgement that is coming. If you labor in the field and building of God only to see the people you minister to not be built up into that which can withstand the coming heat of Judgement you will have nothing to show for your efforts. You yourself will be saved (assuming you were not tearing down the building of God--i.e. H-grace doctrine) but you will have brought no one with you to be a reward for you on the other side:
"1Therefore, my beloved brethren whom I long to see, my joy and crown" (Philippians 4:1 NASB)
"19For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you, in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming? 20For you are our glory and joy." (1 Thessalonians 2:19-20 NASB)
"19For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you, in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming? 20For you are our glory and joy." (1 Thessalonians 2:19-20 NASB)
That's why it's important that you have good doctrine and purposely seek to prepare people for the Day of Judgement that is coming. If you labor in the field and building of God only to see the people you minister to not be built up into that which can withstand the coming heat of Judgement you will have nothing to show for your efforts. You yourself will be saved (assuming you were not tearing down the building of God--i.e. H-grace doctrine) but you will have brought no one with you to be a reward for you on the other side:
"13each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Corinthians 3:13-15 NASB)
"prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, 16holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain." (Philippians 2:15-16 NASB)
" 8Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward." (2 John 1:8 KJV)
"prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world, 16holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain." (Philippians 2:15-16 NASB)
" 8Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward." (2 John 1:8 KJV)
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WHO doesn't have love here Grace?
Do those who speak AGAINST following Christ exhibit LOVE in your opinion? (Haven't seen much there)
Of course, you're ignoring Romans 12:1, but I'd like an answer to the above instead.
It seems to me like you keep speaking to persons WHO ARE NOT PRESENT HERE.
Or replying to ME, replies that really belong to Others. Like those who DO NOT exhibit ANY love.
Do those who speak AGAINST following Christ exhibit LOVE in your opinion? (Haven't seen much there)
Of course, you're ignoring Romans 12:1, but I'd like an answer to the above instead.
It seems to me like you keep speaking to persons WHO ARE NOT PRESENT HERE.
Or replying to ME, replies that really belong to Others. Like those who DO NOT exhibit ANY love.
I can't grasp this, my mind can't grasp it.
You either have eternal life through Him or you don't. He is eternal life. There is no eternal life apart from Him.
I can't quite comprehend then that there IS an eternal life apart from Him...(albeit a tortured eternal life.)
I know He will raise everyone again in the judgement. But I can't grasp that one can have eternal life without the second birth.
You either have eternal life through Him or you don't. He is eternal life. There is no eternal life apart from Him.
I can't quite comprehend then that there IS an eternal life apart from Him...(albeit a tortured eternal life.)
I know He will raise everyone again in the judgement. But I can't grasp that one can have eternal life without the second birth.
What I'm saying is blatantly obvious to those who use their brains..
Once we're saved, we do good works because they are commanded to be done. But not for the purpose of KEEPING salvation.. so YES, if you're doing good works to stay saved, you're doing them for the wrong reason.
God says love thy neighbor, so how do we do that? By doing good things for them. WITHOUT expectation of keeping salvation.. And yes Fran, no offense, but you truly are very thick on this subject..
Once we're saved, we do good works because they are commanded to be done. But not for the purpose of KEEPING salvation.. so YES, if you're doing good works to stay saved, you're doing them for the wrong reason.
God says love thy neighbor, so how do we do that? By doing good things for them. WITHOUT expectation of keeping salvation.. And yes Fran, no offense, but you truly are very thick on this subject..
This is the exact same argument that I hear from Roman Catholics and other works salvationists. 
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Is "persevering under trial and love Him" DESCRIPTIVE of believers or unbelievers?
It's true that all Christians have an inheritance in heaven (given as God’s gift of grace when we believe the gospel) that will not fade away and is reserved for us (1 Peter 1:4), but that is not all that is involved in the inheritance. There is a secondary inheritance that is in regards to rewards based on our works.
There it is! He shall REWARD every man according to his works. *Jesus did not say He will grant the gift of eternal life to every man based on the merit of his works.
Faithful over a few things resulted in make thee ruler over many things. All believers will enter into the joy of the Lord, yet not all believers will be equally rewarded.
If one reads Romans 2:6 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it's imperative to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving eternal life. So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.
Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved.
Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. This is descriptive of unbelievers. Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).
What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of our salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of our salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1, but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).
You continue to read the Bible through the lens of works salvation and you also continue to confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture.
The good deeds of the redeemed (those who have done good) are not the basis of their salvation but the evidence of it. A person's conduct, whether good or evil, reveals the condition of his heart.
Doing good flows inescapably from a heart that is saved and doing evil flows equally inescapably from a heart that is unsaved, as we already saw in Romans 2:6-10. Notice that ALL who come forth unto the resurrection of life (believers - vs. 24) are described as those who have done good and ALL that come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (unbelievers) are described as those who have done evil.
What did Jesus say in John 3:18? - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already..
Are believers described as "those who have done good" or those who have done evil?"
Are unbelievers described as those "who have done evil" or "those who have done good?"
**************************************************************
Is "persevering under trial and love Him" DESCRIPTIVE of believers or unbelievers?
It's true that all Christians have an inheritance in heaven (given as God’s gift of grace when we believe the gospel) that will not fade away and is reserved for us (1 Peter 1:4), but that is not all that is involved in the inheritance. There is a secondary inheritance that is in regards to rewards based on our works.
There it is! He shall REWARD every man according to his works. *Jesus did not say He will grant the gift of eternal life to every man based on the merit of his works.
Faithful over a few things resulted in make thee ruler over many things. All believers will enter into the joy of the Lord, yet not all believers will be equally rewarded.
If one reads Romans 2:6 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it's imperative to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving eternal life. So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.
Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved.
Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. This is descriptive of unbelievers. Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).
What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of our salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of our salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1, but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).
You continue to read the Bible through the lens of works salvation and you also continue to confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture.
The good deeds of the redeemed (those who have done good) are not the basis of their salvation but the evidence of it. A person's conduct, whether good or evil, reveals the condition of his heart.
Doing good flows inescapably from a heart that is saved and doing evil flows equally inescapably from a heart that is unsaved, as we already saw in Romans 2:6-10. Notice that ALL who come forth unto the resurrection of life (believers - vs. 24) are described as those who have done good and ALL that come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (unbelievers) are described as those who have done evil.
What did Jesus say in John 3:18? - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already..
Are believers described as "those who have done good" or those who have done evil?"
Are unbelievers described as those "who have done evil" or "those who have done good?"
Eternal Life is referring to Zoe Life which is obtainable ONLY through the spirit of God by belief in His Son, Jesus.
We all have a soul. The soul lives forever. The US in us lives forever.
IF WE ALSO HAVE CHRIST, we will have an eternal ZOE LIFE.
But everyone "lives" forever. Jesus taught this.
Just not everyone will have LIFE IN GOD. REAL LIFE. ZOE LIFE.
We all have a soul. The soul lives forever. The US in us lives forever.
IF WE ALSO HAVE CHRIST, we will have an eternal ZOE LIFE.
But everyone "lives" forever. Jesus taught this.
Just not everyone will have LIFE IN GOD. REAL LIFE. ZOE LIFE.
I agree with this. But, the problem as I see it is foundational. That foundation has to be strong and secure because we go from babes, to young men, then to fathers in our own personal life, and as disciplers (Word) to others. Otherwise, condemnation from our own conscience rises and we are paralyzed to go forward when we stumble. And we will have failures along the way. One has to be restored. This is doublemindedness, and immaturity. If the foundation is right based on the work of Jesus alone, we know we don't have to hide from the Lord, but will run to Him. We know He loves us unconditionally.
The emphasis should be living by life in the Spirit.
P
The reason there is so much resistance to what Fran is saying is because the church is incapable of understanding works as the obligatory footprints of faith. They think faith and works are two completely distinct and separate thingsin life and so they think it entirely possible to live a full, long life with all arms and legs, and mouth working and you can get to the Judgment with nothing but a cold, dead, empty OSAS confession of faith in Christ and not have a life characterized by righteous work and Christ will usher you into the kingdom. That's not even remotely true. Many will be sorely surprised on the Day of Judgment to find out that James was not lying when he said dead faith (faith without works attached) can not save.
The only place that works and faith are distinct and separate is in justification. You are not justified by works. That is impossible. You would have to have been a perfect person, according to all of the law, to be justified by what you do. This truth the church knows quite well. The problem is, they think justification by faith apart from works means they do not have any obligation to purposely and consciously walk in good works because as they love to say, "salvation is soooo not of works", which it true, but they don't realize if they truly had justification apart from their works their life must prove the presence of that justification. They boast and brag about how powerful God is in salvation in saving works-less people but don't seem to realize that that belief also shows God to be so pathetically unable and powerless to cause their faith to manifest itself in a life of righteous living.
The only place that works and faith are distinct and separate is in justification. You are not justified by works. That is impossible. You would have to have been a perfect person, according to all of the law, to be justified by what you do. This truth the church knows quite well. The problem is, they think justification by faith apart from works means they do not have any obligation to purposely and consciously walk in good works because as they love to say, "salvation is soooo not of works", which it true, but they don't realize if they truly had justification apart from their works their life must prove the presence of that justification. They boast and brag about how powerful God is in salvation in saving works-less people but don't seem to realize that that belief also shows God to be so pathetically unable and powerless to cause their faith to manifest itself in a life of righteous living.
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