Mormons / Latter Day Saints

[CAH2]

the gospel has always been around, it doesn't need restoring.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of

the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Romans 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed

from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Hi Dan_473. I believe that you are right to a degree. There has been parts of the gospel around at all times. However, I would disagree that all of it has been around and consolidated in one organization as Jesus organized when he was alive. I believe the evidence of that would be in the many different churches that are available today he differ in opinion about Jesus' gospel.

For example, some believe in baptism as Christ was baptized, by immersion. Others, state that one needs no baptism or baptism is to be done with a sprinkling or can be done by anyone (who as the authority of God to baptize?). Which of these is acceptable by God?

I mentioned the authority of God. Who has it to baptize, to provide blessings, to preach, to receive revelation, etc...??? How is it received? Is it to be provided to both men and women?

There are many issues like this of differing opinion. But which is the correct way? If they are all right than it would seem that God is a God of confusion. But I don't believe that he is. Therefore, I would say that there are many that have partial doctrinal truth. Is there one that contains it all?

If so, there would have needed to be a restoration.

 

[CAH2]

Interesting God spoke to Joseph Smith in Elizabethan English in the 1820's! Now, some might say that God speaks Elizabethean English, on this forum, which is why only the KJ Bible is correct. Yet, since I have read the opening chapters of the Book of Mormon and know it contradicts the Bible, my understanding is that Smith chose to piggy back on the KJV.

Or do Mormons have an unauthorized Book of Mormon, in modern English? And are there fights about which version is correct? I would refer to the Koine Greek and Masoretic Hebrew, but since those don't exist for the Book of Mormon, for obvious reasons, I'll pass on dechipering this passage.

Might I suggest, you get a modern version of the Bible, read it through a few times, and see the contradictions between the BoM and the Bible? I pray then God will save you and pull you out of this cult! No "burning in the breast" necessary! (Or heartburn!)

Hi Angela53510,

This might seem like taunting, but that is not my intention. I would be interested in knowing which contradictions you have found?

 

[Gabriel2020]

That was the time God blinded the minds of Israel to his word,that they could not believe what they heard. The book of Esther has no mention of God whatsoever. The Jews were under control King Ahasuerus, he controled over an hundred and seven and twenty provinces.T he Jews and Israelites had been blinded to the word of God until Jesus began to preach to them, and only the Jews were able to recieve the gospel. The rest of Israel was spiritually blinded,and their eyes will not be opened until the fullness of the gentiles have heard the gospel. The remnant began with the Jews first, but not the rest of the tribes just yet. The mormons are talking about that famine of the word, which was restored when Jesus came. he restored it ,not man. Everywhere God's people went all over the world, they could not find it because their eyes were blinded to the truth and their ears also.

 

[Gabriel2020]

The first thing that got my attention was the tablets of pure gold. Gold was very tempting in those days and people would sell their souls for it if they found it. He did not even write the ten commandments on any precious metal, but yet he wrote it on a stone.

 

[bluto]

I will be more than happy to answer your questions first but can you first tell me how long have you been an lds, and how did you become an lds? Just give me the short version and then I will address your questions? Btw, have you been on a mission? Thank You! :eek

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Ok cah, here we go to address your question? My methodology in determining the truth of the Bible is entirely orthodox, it's called exercising valid reasoning to determine the truth REPRESENTED IN THE EVIDENCE. So what is the evidence? You have solid prophetic evidence, overwhelming archelogical evidence for the cities of the bible, New Testament Manuscript Evidence, there is also evidence that Jesus Christ was a real person that lived which is provided by historians and even enemies of Christianity.

Now, what I gave is not so much of a "spiritual" nature but this evidence is real and "NOT" subjective. You did say to me when I ask you about joseph smith and you said the following: "For me, I believe I have felt those spiritual attestations as to the truthfulness of Joseph's story." I'm sorry to tell you this but then again I'm not sorry, how you felt or feel about something is subjective and not evidence.

Remember I ask you that joseph smith clearly stated in the D&C that God the Father appeared to him and so did Jesus Christ. Before that he also said God the Father has a body of flesh and bone. I know he is not telling the truth because Jesus Himself stated that God the Father cannot be seen with the physical eyes at John 5:37 and at John 6:46 or at 1 John 4:12. At John 1:18 it says, "No man has seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him." In other words, Jesus Christ who is the Son of God is the "One and Only" physical manifestation of His Father, period.

The other thing about smith's vision is that he had ask the wrong question? What I mean is that he ask the Lord of all the sects/church which one is right so I can join it? Well truth is that you don't join a "sect or a church" to be saved. You have to have a personal realtionship with Jesus Christ where He is the Lord of your life and joining a church won't cut it. Neither will following ordinances, doing good works, getting water baptized, giving tithes and anything else you can think of. So cha, where am I wrong? Thanks again for listening.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Huckleberry]

Joseph Smith was a fraud and a conman.
His Book of Mormon was of work of plagiarism.
He ripped it off from the King James Bible,
and a contemporary book called View of the Hebrews.
This alone should be enough to convince Mormons that their religion is a sham.

 

[Dan_473]

Hi Dan_473. I believe that you are right to a degree. There has been parts of the gospel around at all times. However, I would disagree that all of it has been around and consolidated in one organization as Jesus organized when he was alive. I believe the evidence of that would be in the many different churches that are available today he differ in opinion about Jesus' gospel.

For example, some believe in baptism as Christ was baptized, by immersion. Others, state that one needs no baptism or baptism is to be done with a sprinkling or can be done by anyone (who as the authority of God to baptize?). Which of these is acceptable by God?

I mentioned the authority of God. Who has it to baptize, to provide blessings, to preach, to receive revelation, etc...??? How is it received? Is it to be provided to both men and women?

There are many issues like this of differing opinion. But which is the correct way? If they are all right than it would seem that God is a God of confusion. But I don't believe that he is. Therefore, I would say that there are many that have partial doctrinal truth. Is there one that contains it all?

If so, there would have needed to be a restoration.

the book of Romans presents the gospel.

we have reliable copies of it today.

Romans 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;


But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead.

 

[sparkman]

Mormons believe that God the Father may have sinned when he was a man (in their theology).

See the video at the bottom of this page where the person interviews a number of Mormons who state that God the Father could have sinned when he was a man (according to their theology) ..pretty weird stuff:

https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.or...ow-about-mormons-when-they-knock-at-the-door/

This is pulling God down to the level of pathetic man.

 

[garee]

Your second point was that God does not need a man to "teach us." I agree with you as God is all powerful. However, God has chosen men to teach us. Adam was instructed by God, who taught his children of God. Moses was chosen by God who then instructed his people of God's way.... The apostles were taught by Jesus and when he was gone they continued preaching to the people. I imagine you have some form of spiritual leader who helps you better understand your own beliefs. I simply believe that God chooses individuals to be spiritual leaders called to teach us God's word.

While God can and does use men to teach us.... the approval as the final authority must come from our Father in heaven if we are to have a personal relationship as two walking together in agreement.

Not a real popular teaching but we are informed by a pearl of great price, a golden nugget in the book of Job two things as applying to one principle. God is not a man as us and neither is there what He calls a daysman as a fleshly umpire (seen)to stand before God not seen and man calling what is true and what is foul .

This helps us understand the antichrists (plural) that we do not need a man to usurp the teaching authority of God as it is written . It would violate another principle found in Mathew using the word Rabbi in place of the word teacher we are to call no man on earth teacher in that way, the same way as call no man on earth Father.

But don't you be called 'Rabbi,' for one is your teacher, the Christ, and all of you are brothers.Call no man on the earth your father, for one is your Father, he who is in heaven. Neither be called masters, for one is your master, the Christ. Mat 23:8

The Son of man Jesus in respect to his temporal outward form when approached as good teacher (Rabbi) a daysman, informed them only God is good….resisting over and over being worshipped in respect to his temporal outward form .

This helps us understanding the warning I respect to the antichrists in 1 John 2:26-27 -Its their kind of methodology as the mark of the beast.


For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment.Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both. (God and man) Job 9:32

Eastons bible dictionary Daysman an umpire or arbiter or judge (Job 9:33). This word is formedfrom the Latin diem dicere, i.e., to fix a day for hearing acause. Such an one is empowered by mutual consent to decide the cause, and to "lay his hand", i.e., to impose his authority, on both,(God and man) and enforce his sentence.

The Son of man in the person of Jesus in respect to his temporal outward form when approached as good teacher (Rabbi) a daysman, informed them ...only God is good….resisting over and over being worshipped in respect to his temporal outward form .

 

[OneFaith]

Having just traveled thru Utah, twice, and learning a few things about the state, I'm wondering how people here feel about the Mormon faith. One thing I found interesting is that their crime rate (and homelessness) is about double the national average. And that they really do target out-of-state license plates for "special consideration". What was it Jesus said about welcoming strangers, and removing the log before picking at others specks?

They used to practice a husband being married to his wife and their daughter, at the same time (sick!). I'm glad they changed that, but like many other false doctrines, lies change truth does not. You will never find changing doctrines in the one true church Christ established. If your church does not match New Testament doctrine only, you're in the wrong church. "One Lord, one Faith, one baptism."

 

[Nehemiah6]

I think that your point is that despite the many good works one does they do not justify (save) you without the grace of Christ to overcome our sin??? However, it is one's belief and faith in Christ, in correct principles & doctrine, that ultimately make our works acceptable to God???

Not quite. What we need to focus on is what -- in God's eyes -- is "counted to us for righteousness"? In other words, on what grounds does a sinner become "justified" (deemed righteous by God)? Scripture says that just as Abraham's faith was counted to him for righteousness, our faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption is counted to us for righteousness (Romans 4:1-25), and thereby we are justified by grace through faith . It is then that we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, and it is the Holy Spirit who produces the good works. As Scripture say we as justified by grace through faith in order that we may produce good works (Eph 2:8-10) . But not a single good work contributes towards our salvation. It is purely the merits of Christ.

If this is so I think we are both on the same page. However, we probably disagree on some of the correct principles and doctrine. Am I right?

I believe it would be primarily doctrine. To the best of my knowledge, practicing Mormons maintain a high standard of morality, and have also generally discarded polygamy. But if the doctrine is not true Bible doctrine but a mixture of true and false, that is a very serious matter. Note this doctrine from www. mormon.org. You will not find a single passage in the Holy Bible to support this belief:

He has a plan for our eternal salvation, and it began in our premortal life, where we learned, matured, and developed the spirit we each have today. Just as we are individuals now, with distinct personalities, genders, and aptitudes, so were we there. But there was a limit to our progression in that heavenly home, and much like Adam and Eve leaving the Garden of Eden, we had to leave the presence of God in order to fulfill our potential—to test ourselves using a mortal body and the agency we gained by choosing to come to earth. In doing so we knew we would face pain and hardship, but we also knew that opposition was essential for us to achieve our potential.

 

[CAH2]

Ok cah, here we go to address your question? My methodology in determining the truth of the Bible is entirely orthodox, it's called exercising valid reasoning to determine the truth REPRESENTED IN THE EVIDENCE. So what is the evidence? You have solid prophetic evidence, overwhelming archelogical evidence for the cities of the bible, New Testament Manuscript Evidence, there is also evidence that Jesus Christ was a real person that lived which is provided by historians and even enemies of Christianity.

Now, what I gave is not so much of a "spiritual" nature but this evidence is real and "NOT" subjective. You did say to me when I ask you about joseph smith and you said the following: "For me, I believe I have felt those spiritual attestations as to the truthfulness of Joseph's story." I'm sorry to tell you this but then again I'm not sorry, how you felt or feel about something is subjective and not evidence.

Remember I ask you that joseph smith clearly stated in the D&C that God the Father appeared to him and so did Jesus Christ. Before that he also said God the Father has a body of flesh and bone. I know he is not telling the truth because Jesus Himself stated that God the Father cannot be seen with the physical eyes at John 5:37 and at John 6:46 or at 1 John 4:12. At John 1:18 it says, "No man has seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him." In other words, Jesus Christ who is the Son of God is the "One and Only" physical manifestation of His Father, period.

The other thing about smith's vision is that he had ask the wrong question? What I mean is that he ask the Lord of all the sects/church which one is right so I can join it? Well truth is that you don't join a "sect or a church" to be saved. You have to have a personal realtionship with Jesus Christ where He is the Lord of your life and joining a church won't cut it. Neither will following ordinances, doing good works, getting water baptized, giving tithes and anything else you can think of. So cha, where am I wrong? Thanks again for listening.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

I don't think you are wrong to use biblical or archeological or manuscript evidence to support your belief in Jesus Christ or in a specific doctrine. In fact, I think it can enhance your understanding and strengthen your faith. However, I cannot tell you that I am a scholar in all of these areas because I am not. I do believe that I could strengthen my testimony by increasing my knowledge in these areas. With that said, we cannot rely wholly on "evidence" or science to teach us spiritual things because many spiritual things are not explainable by the sciences.

Joseph Smith did testify that he saw God the Father and his Son, Jesus Christ, standing next to him as resurrected beings (godly men of flesh and bone). I've looked at some of the scriptures that you provided and am not sure how John 5:37 applies.

John 6:46 states in the KJ's version of the Bible "46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father." (in this verse it appears that no man, unless he is of God, has seen the father. Meaning, he can see God but only if he is righteous in my opinion).

1 John 4:12 reads "No man hath seen God at any time...." (If we are to leave out all other scripture it appears that no man hath seen God at anytime, which seems to be in contradiction to the before quoted passage. Although the before quoted passage does not state a particular man has seen God).

You already quoted John 1:18. (This scripture's meaning goes along with 1 John 4:12)

I would also like to add Acts 9:27 which is after Saul's conversion, Barnabas reports that he had seen the Lord: But Barnabas took him, and brought him to the apostles, and declared unto them how he had seen the Lord in the way, and that he had spoken to him, and how he had preached boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus." (In this scripture we see evidence that Saul saw the Lord, and he wasn't even righteous at the time, but was to be converted because of this appearance).

Further, Genesis 32:30 states: "And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (According to this scripture Jacob saw God face to face and he was "preserved.""

Exodus 33:11 states: "And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend..." and in the same chapter verse 20 it states: "And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live." And verse 23, "And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen." (This one is confusing to me. The scripture says the Lord spake unto Moses face to face and then later it says Moses did not see God's face but his back parts. Not sure from the words alone what to make of it.)

I have concluded that if God wants to show himself to man, isn't he all powerful enough to do so, to make it happen? Yes. And the scriptures show some evidence of man seeing God. God may have to create a way for it to happen so the individual does not die but there is evidence that it has happened. Joseph Smith's report is more evidence of it happening. Within the Book of Mormon the brother of Jared sees the Lord before he has come to the earth.

Your last paragraph is a mixed bag for me. I agree with you that one must have an individual relationship with Jesus Christ in order to be saved. There is no doubt about that. However, Christ also left an organized church when he left the earth with Peter, James, and John at its head. There were teachers, priests, evangelists, and organizations of 70's who were leaders within the organization, not to mention 12 apostles total. It was organized religion in my opinion. And it was through the organized religion that Jesus' doctrines were taught. These leaders were lead by Jesus Christ after he was gone, evidence is that Paul had a vision from God that lead him to expand their preaching unto the Gentiles. Therefore, I do believe in organized religion today. It is through organized religion that God can teach his word and strengthen the individual who so needs a relationship with Christ. It is God's way of ensuring that his followers receive his required ordinances of baptism and confirmation (receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost) to be saved. It is through organized religion that he gives his authority unto man to act in his name to provide such ordinances as he does not authorize all individuals to perform such ordinances "willie nillie."

Good discussion Bluto.

 

[Gabriel2020]

No man has ever seen God and lived to tell about it. that is scripture. Jesus warned us about those you say they have seen him after he left that they were false teachers. you may see him in a vision as he was when he was on earth, but never in any form such as flesh and blood. He said that the next time he set foot on earth will be his coming on a cloud and that every soul shall see him. he still sets on the right side of the throne with his Father. no one ever saw him again after he ascended into heaven. he did not need to come back because he said that he would leave the Holy Ghost. be not deceived.

 

[CAH2]

Not quite. What we need to focus on is what -- in God's eyes -- is "counted to us for righteousness"? In other words, on what grounds does a sinner become "justified" (deemed righteous by God)? Scripture says that just as Abraham's faith was counted to him for righteousness, our faith in Christ and His finished work of redemption is counted to us for righteousness (Romans 4:1-25), and thereby we are justified by grace through faith . It is then that we receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, and it is the Holy Spirit who produces the good works. As Scripture say we as justified by grace through faith in order that we may produce good works [/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR](Eph 2:8-10) . But not a single good work contributes towards our salvation. It is purely the merits of Christ.


I believe it would be primarily doctrine. To the best of my knowledge, practicing Mormons maintain a high standard of morality, and have also generally discarded polygamy. But if the doctrine is not true Bible doctrine but a mixture of true and false, that is a very serious matter. Note this doctrine from www. mormon.org. You will not find a single passage in the Holy Bible to support this belief:

[/SIZE]

Sorry I don't have a great response to this right away. I hope I will soon. It's pretty late for me. However, in your post you bring up the topic of faith and especially important (not that faith isn't because it is) is grace. I once heard a speech by a BYU professor that I truly enjoyed about grace. Listening to it does it more justice because it's more entertaining but you can listen or read it. Tell me what you think.

https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/brad-wilcox_his-grace-is-sufficient/

CAH2

 

[tribesman]

There is a huge lot of problems with the BOM and the other LDS "standard works", being not inspired scripture as well as the many times bizarre teachings and beliefs of the LDS (especially the biggest one, Utah based, but also the rest of the mormon establishment). Basically, they do not worship the one true God, as presented in scripture, but other gods. Both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were freemasons, and had a conflict with the Nauvoo lodge. Much of mormonism draws from masonic thought and the Utah mormons do have some rituals similar to that of masonry in their temples. On a personal level, I do not have anything against the mormon people I have met, whether in US, Europe and Asia. In fact, I can think of no mormon that I met that I didn't like. They're are usually conservative minded and have neat manners. But when we begin discussing things like church history, theology and freemasonry their faces changes and look uncomfortable and the topic is soon changed...

 

[mj007]

I like Mormons, but they come across a little robotic. Anyone devout does though, I guess. Very different from devoted.

 

[Miri]

Hi CAH2

Can I ask you an honest question, what is the reason why you feel the
bible on its own, isn't sufficient. I'm just asking because Mormons aren't the
only ones. Johovah's Witnesses have their watch tower magazines. Islam has the
Koran, Mormons have the book of Mormons.

It's a great pity because I really do feel that millions of good people seeking the
truth are being led away from the actual truth. It applies to Christians also, as
a child in Sunday school (I started going to church age 9) I was told a lot of well
intentioned stuff. But it was when I started to really read the bible for myself, that I
found some of it was wrong. Sunday school teachers were just repeating parrot fashion
what they had been told and were passong that wrong information onto us kids.
I suspect some of those kids as grown ups, have also repeated parrot fashion what they
were taught.


Can I suggest something. Don't read anything else but the bible for the next 6 months.
Don't ask others to explain it to you, ask God to reveal it to you.

Start with the Gospels, Matthew is interesting as it has all the genealogies. John is
more about Jesus who He is etc. Luke's gives a fuller account of His life and what happened.
Mark I've always thought of as supporting the rest.

Then try the book of Isaiah. I wouldn't necessarily suggest Isaiah to a non Christian, but
you may find it fills in some more gaps for you and it's a bit more meatier.

If after 6 months you want to go back to the Book of Mormon, then you won't have
lost anything will you. Indeed you will have gained a lot. Everyone needs to seek the
truth for themselves, rather that relying on what others say, even Christians.


Isaiah 55:1-13 NKJV
[1] "Ho! Everyone who thirsts, Come to the waters; And you who have no money,
Come, buy and eat. Yes, come, buy wine and milk Without money and without price.
[2] Why do you spend money for what is not bread, And your wages for what does
not satisfy? Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good, And let your soul delight
itself in abundance.

[3] Incline your ear, and come to Me. Hear, and your soul shall live; And I will make
an everlasting covenant with you- The sure mercies of David. [4] Indeed I have
given him as a witness to the people, A leader and commander for the people.
[5] Surely you shall call a nation you do not know, And nations who do not know
you shall run to you, Because of the LORD your God, And the Holy One of Israel;
For He has glorified you."

[6] Seek the LORD while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near.
[7] Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let
him return to the LORD, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He
will abundantly pardon. [8] "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your
ways My ways," says the LORD. [9] "For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.

[10] "For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, And do not return
there, But water the earth, And make it bring forth and bud, That it may give
seed to the sower And bread to the eater, [11] So shall My word be that goes
forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish
what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

[12] "For you shall go out with joy, And be led out with peace; The mountains
and the hills Shall break forth into singing before you, And all the trees of the
field shall clap their hands. [13] Instead of the thorn shall come up the
cypress tree, And instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree; And
it shall be to the LORD for a name, For an everlasting sign that shall not be cut off."

 

[tribesman]

 

[EarnestQ]

It is a wise person who does not mock what he does not understand.

The Mormons or members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints believe that Christ restored his Church to the earth after a long period of Apostacy. They teach that every person can find out if this is true of false through the Holy Spirit. The one thing you'll notice if you ever talk with the missionaries is they will not try to convince you of what they teach, they will ask you to pray to God and ask for yourself.
I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. I realize that after having said this that most or all of you will have summarily dismissed me as "deceived", "misguided", "spiritually confused", "decieved by satan" and in need of being brought back and saved from the errors of my ways.
None-the-less, I tell you I have read the Book of Mormon and I know through the Spirit of Christ that it is of God! It is another testament along with the Bible that Jesus is the promised Messiah. Anyone who chooses to can pick up the book and test it for themselves.

The book of morman was a science fiction book that was stolen from the publisher. It was written by one man whose name escapes me. This is a proven fact.

All I remember is that Chris Vlokos did the research on it. I don't know if he ever published anything or not.

 

[EarnestQ]

Make that Chris Vlochos.

[email protected]