Mormons / Latter Day Saints
- Thread starter RickyZ
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
what's below isn't my own research; i'm copy-pasting some information from mit.irr.org in order to address the statement below:
that is one account Joseph gave of his supposed vision. his story changed many times in many details, including which, and how many, divine beings he saw and interacted with, and when it happened, the date in his own retelling varying by 3 years.
to me, i expect that a person who had experienced such a once-in-the-life-of-the-entire-universe revelation would have a clear memory of the event, that wouldn't change.. ??
does anyone imagine John revised his revelation a dozen times, changing characters & motives in it?
but of course, i doubt that such historical facts are often taught to LDS membership, even though all this documentation comes from resources within their own archives.
Joseph Smith, the founding prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, claimed that as a 14-year-old boy he had a vision of God the Father and Jesus Christ. The official account of this first vision found in Mormon Scripture (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith — History, 1:14-20) was not recorded by Joseph Smith until 1838, 18 years after the supposed event. However, for years before this, Joseph, and his close associates did talk about his early visionary experiences. These earlier accounts contain significant variations from the official First Vision account. The links below present these accounts in chronological order.
The evidence available from early sources, including Joseph Smith and his family establish a number of important facts.
First, Joseph did not relate his story consistently, but changed key elements over the years. He changed:
One thing is clear, the LDS Church does a great disservice to investigators of its claims by presenting Joseph Smith’s 1838 account of his first vision as the only version of these events. It appears deliberately misleading to offer this account (now canonized as part of LDS Scripture) as an unquestioningly accurate and honest portrayal of its historical origins.
— Joel B. Groat
that is one account Joseph gave of his supposed vision. his story changed many times in many details, including which, and how many, divine beings he saw and interacted with, and when it happened, the date in his own retelling varying by 3 years.
to me, i expect that a person who had experienced such a once-in-the-life-of-the-entire-universe revelation would have a clear memory of the event, that wouldn't change.. ??
does anyone imagine John revised his revelation a dozen times, changing characters & motives in it?
but of course, i doubt that such historical facts are often taught to LDS membership, even though all this documentation comes from resources within their own archives.
Joseph Smith, the founding prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, claimed that as a 14-year-old boy he had a vision of God the Father and Jesus Christ. The official account of this first vision found in Mormon Scripture (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith — History, 1:14-20) was not recorded by Joseph Smith until 1838, 18 years after the supposed event. However, for years before this, Joseph, and his close associates did talk about his early visionary experiences. These earlier accounts contain significant variations from the official First Vision account. The links below present these accounts in chronological order.
- 1827 — Account of Joseph Smith, Sr., and Joseph Smith, Jr., given to Willard Chase, as related in his 1833 affidavit.
- 1827 — Account by Martin Harris given to Rev. John Clark, as published in his book Gleanings by the Way,printed in 1842, pp. 222-229.
- 1830 — Interview of Joseph Smith by Peter Bauder, recounted by Bauder in his book The Kingdom and the Gospel of Jesus Christ, printed in 1834, pp. 36-38.
- 1832 — Earliest known attempt at an ‘official’ recounting of the ‘First Vision, from History, 1832, Joseph Smith Letterbook 1, pp.2,3, in the handwriting of Joseph Smith.
- 1834-35 — Oliver Cowdery, with Joseph Smith’s help, published the first history of Mormonism in the LDS periodical Messenger and Advocate, Kirtland, Ohio, Dec. 1834, vol.1, no.3
- 1835 — Account given by Joseph Smith to Joshua the Jewish minister, Joseph Smith Diary, Nov. 9, 1835.
- 1835 — Account given by Joseph Smith to Erastus Holmes on November 14, 1835, originally published in the Deseret News of Saturday May 29, 1852.
- 1838 — This account became the official version, now part of Mormon Scripture in the Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith — History, 1:7-20. Though written in 1838, it was not published until 1842 in Times and Season, March 15, 1842, vol. 3, no. 10, pp. 727-728, 748-749, 753.
- 1844 — Account in An Original History of the Religious Denominations at Present Existing in the United States, edited by Daniel Rupp. Joseph Smith wrote the chapter on Mormonism.
- 1859 — Interview with Martin Harris, Tiffany’s Monthly, 1859, New York: Published by Joel Tiffany, vol. v.—12, pp. 163-170.
The evidence available from early sources, including Joseph Smith and his family establish a number of important facts.
First, Joseph did not relate his story consistently, but changed key elements over the years. He changed:
- The date / his age — from 1823 (age 16), to 1821 (age 15), to 1820 (age 14)
- The reason or motive for seeking divine help — from no motive (a spirit appears with the news of gold plates), Bible reading and conviction of sins, a revival, a desire to know if God exists.
- Who appears to him — a spirit, an angel, two angels, Jesus, many angels, the Father and the Son.
One thing is clear, the LDS Church does a great disservice to investigators of its claims by presenting Joseph Smith’s 1838 account of his first vision as the only version of these events. It appears deliberately misleading to offer this account (now canonized as part of LDS Scripture) as an unquestioningly accurate and honest portrayal of its historical origins.
— Joel B. Groat
in the earliest extant account that J. Smith gave of his "first vision" it was neither God the Father, God the Son, one or many angels that instructed him about a supposed cache of golden plates, but a spirit in the form of a toad, that then took on the appearance of a man and physically beat him.
yes, a toad-spirit told him these things.
that was J. Smith's original story.
strange for a person's memory to mix-up the Creator of the universe accompanied by all revealed parts of the Godhead and an host of angels with "a toad spirit" that assaulted him, doncha think? not exactly the kind of detail that would be hazy in a person's mind, riiight??
below is again quoted & reposted from mit.irr.org, Joel B. Groat's research and work:
Changing First Vision Accounts - 1827 First Vision Account as related to Willard Chase
By: Joel B. Groat
Post date:
July 15, 2011
1827 — Account of Joseph Smith, Sr., and Joseph Smith, Jr., given to Willard Chase, as related in his 1833 affidavit. Joseph Smith’s New York Reputation Reexamined, Rodger I. Anderson, Signature Books, 1990, p. 121.
The value of this account, while from a non-Mormon source, is the early date and the parallels it contains to the account given by Martin Harris. Both Chase and Harris were among the earliest people to hear the story from Joseph Smith and his family, and both place the discovery of a gold book within the context of money-digging.
Principle elements of the account:
The Account
“In the month of June, 1827, Joseph Smith, Sen. related to me the following story: ‘That some years ago, a spirit had appeared to Joseph his son, in a vision, and informed him that in a certain place there was a record on plates of gold, and that he was the person that must obtain them, and this he must do in the following manner: On the 22nd of September, he must repair to the place where was deposited this manuscript, dressed in black clothes, and riding a black horse with a switch tail, and demand the book in a certain name, and after obtaining it, he must go directly away, and neither lay it down nor look behind him. They accordingly fitted out Joseph with the suit of black clothes, and borrowed a black horse. He repaired to the place of deposit and demanded the book, which was in a stone box, unsealed, and so near the top of the ground that he could see one end of it, and raising it up, took out the book of gold; but fearing some one might discover where he got it, he laid it down to place back the top stone, as he found it; and turning around, to his surprise there was no book in sight. He again opened the box, and in it saw the book, and attempted to take it out, but was hindered. He saw in the box something like toad, which soon assumed the appearance of a man, and struck him on the side of his head. – Not being discouraged at trifles, he again stooped down and strove to take the book, when the spirit struck him again, and knocked him three or four rods, and hurt him prodigiously. After recovering from his fright, he inquired why he could not obtain the plates; to which the spirit made reply, because you have not obeyed your orders.
“… In the fore part of September, (I believe,) 1827, the Prophet [Joseph Smith] requested me to make him a chest, informing me that he designed to move back to Pennsylvania, and expecting soon to get his gold book, he wanted a chest to lock it up, giving me to understand at the same time, that if I would make the chest he would give me a share in the book. … “A few weeks after this conversation, he came to my house and related the following story: That on the 22nd of September, he arose early in the morning, and took a one horse wagon, of someone that had stayed over night at their house, without leave or license; and, together with his wife, repaired to the hill which contained the book. He left his wife in the wagon, by the road, and went alone to the hill, a distance of thirty or forty rods from the road; he said he took the book out of the ground and hid it in a tree top, and returned home. … He then observed that if it had not been for that stone [Joseph's money-digging seer stone], (which he acknowledged belonged to me,) he would not have obtained the book. A few days afterwards, he told one of my neighbors that he had not got any such book, nor never had such an one; but that he had told the story to deceive the d—d fool, (meaning me,) to get him to make a chest. His neighbors having become disgusted with his foolish stories, he determined to go back to Pennsylvania, to avoid what he called persecution. His wits were now put to the task to contrive how he should get money to bear his expenses. He met one day in the streets of Palmyra, a rich man, whose name was Martin Harris, and addressed him thus; ‘I have a commandment from God to ask the first man I meet in the street to give me fifty dollars, to assist me in doing the work of the Lord by translating the Golden Bible.’ Martin being naturally a credulous man, hands Joseph the money.”
yes, a toad-spirit told him these things.
that was J. Smith's original story.
strange for a person's memory to mix-up the Creator of the universe accompanied by all revealed parts of the Godhead and an host of angels with "a toad spirit" that assaulted him, doncha think? not exactly the kind of detail that would be hazy in a person's mind, riiight??
below is again quoted & reposted from mit.irr.org, Joel B. Groat's research and work:
Changing First Vision Accounts - 1827 First Vision Account as related to Willard Chase
By: Joel B. Groat
Post date:
July 15, 2011
1827 — Account of Joseph Smith, Sr., and Joseph Smith, Jr., given to Willard Chase, as related in his 1833 affidavit. Joseph Smith’s New York Reputation Reexamined, Rodger I. Anderson, Signature Books, 1990, p. 121.
The value of this account, while from a non-Mormon source, is the early date and the parallels it contains to the account given by Martin Harris. Both Chase and Harris were among the earliest people to hear the story from Joseph Smith and his family, and both place the discovery of a gold book within the context of money-digging.
Principle elements of the account:
- Several years before obtaining the plates, a spirit appeared to Joseph in a vision telling him of a record on gold plates.
- When Joseph went to get the plates the spirit, transforming from toad to man, struck Joseph twice and gave him instructions to come back again in a year, a command repeated several years in a row.
- Approximate age 17 (1823) when spirit first appears.
- Joseph obtains gold book using the seer stone he found in the well of Willard Chase.
- Gold book found in the context of money-digging
- Age 21 (1827) when Joseph retrieves plates
- No mention of a revival
- Joseph retrieves plates while out with his wife but hides them in the woods
- Joseph approaches Martin Harris, a man with money, to say that God has given Joseph a commandment that Harris is the one God wants to assist [financially] in producing the Book of Mormon.
The Account
“In the month of June, 1827, Joseph Smith, Sen. related to me the following story: ‘That some years ago, a spirit had appeared to Joseph his son, in a vision, and informed him that in a certain place there was a record on plates of gold, and that he was the person that must obtain them, and this he must do in the following manner: On the 22nd of September, he must repair to the place where was deposited this manuscript, dressed in black clothes, and riding a black horse with a switch tail, and demand the book in a certain name, and after obtaining it, he must go directly away, and neither lay it down nor look behind him. They accordingly fitted out Joseph with the suit of black clothes, and borrowed a black horse. He repaired to the place of deposit and demanded the book, which was in a stone box, unsealed, and so near the top of the ground that he could see one end of it, and raising it up, took out the book of gold; but fearing some one might discover where he got it, he laid it down to place back the top stone, as he found it; and turning around, to his surprise there was no book in sight. He again opened the box, and in it saw the book, and attempted to take it out, but was hindered. He saw in the box something like toad, which soon assumed the appearance of a man, and struck him on the side of his head. – Not being discouraged at trifles, he again stooped down and strove to take the book, when the spirit struck him again, and knocked him three or four rods, and hurt him prodigiously. After recovering from his fright, he inquired why he could not obtain the plates; to which the spirit made reply, because you have not obeyed your orders.
“… In the fore part of September, (I believe,) 1827, the Prophet [Joseph Smith] requested me to make him a chest, informing me that he designed to move back to Pennsylvania, and expecting soon to get his gold book, he wanted a chest to lock it up, giving me to understand at the same time, that if I would make the chest he would give me a share in the book. … “A few weeks after this conversation, he came to my house and related the following story: That on the 22nd of September, he arose early in the morning, and took a one horse wagon, of someone that had stayed over night at their house, without leave or license; and, together with his wife, repaired to the hill which contained the book. He left his wife in the wagon, by the road, and went alone to the hill, a distance of thirty or forty rods from the road; he said he took the book out of the ground and hid it in a tree top, and returned home. … He then observed that if it had not been for that stone [Joseph's money-digging seer stone], (which he acknowledged belonged to me,) he would not have obtained the book. A few days afterwards, he told one of my neighbors that he had not got any such book, nor never had such an one; but that he had told the story to deceive the d—d fool, (meaning me,) to get him to make a chest. His neighbors having become disgusted with his foolish stories, he determined to go back to Pennsylvania, to avoid what he called persecution. His wits were now put to the task to contrive how he should get money to bear his expenses. He met one day in the streets of Palmyra, a rich man, whose name was Martin Harris, and addressed him thus; ‘I have a commandment from God to ask the first man I meet in the street to give me fifty dollars, to assist me in doing the work of the Lord by translating the Golden Bible.’ Martin being naturally a credulous man, hands Joseph the money.”
With the obesity epidemic in the states I'm sure some qualify as Fatter Day Saints..
ah yes, the famous cadre which traces their origins back to the fourth friday of November, which has been historically, since colonial times, the day after the Thanksgiving feast, the Day when all such Saints have become "Fatter"
yeah, that part..
i've read it too, with much prayer and much consternation.
& i also know for certain, it having been shown to me through the Holy Spirit, that it is not authentic, having many errors and contradictions with the same KJV that it so heavily plagiarizes, that the prophets of the LDS are false liars, speaking by another spirit altogether, that their doctrines also are false and deceptive.
that was my own 'burning in the bosom' experience.
what does a Mormon say about that?
do they say the 'burning in my bosom' was from Satan, and that the mark of a true burning bosom is that one embraces their prophets and their book? thus admitting that such an experience can be counterfeit, calling into question the usefulness & veracity of any such thing?
or do they turn and trivialize the whole 'burning in the bosom' thing altogether, and say it can't be 'depended on' as a basis for belief, since my own 'burning bosom' - and yes, i literally felt hot in my center, reading the BOM while also reading the OT, as the Spirit guided me in understanding - since my own 'burning bosom' turned out to refute their prophets? also directly calling into question the usefulness and authenticity of any such thing?
either way, my experience seems to fundamentally destroy the premise of their evangelism.
* and more heavily, the unpublished novel of Solomon Spalding, whose manuscript was stolen, possibly by Smith, and which included a narrative similar to "View of the Hebrews" and strikingly similar to the BOM in which parts are not direct plagiarism of the KJV Bible itself.
mormonthink.com has a good, long look at the connection this has with the BOM and particularly the criticism the LDS raised in 1885 when an unfinished manuscript was produced and attributed to Spalding, with the claim that it was the very one in question. the LDS claim, and the claim of scholars inclined to align themselves with them, is that this mss. should totally disprove any idea that the BOM is a forgery with origins involving said novel, and that it is a settled matter. mormonthink argues that this really isn't settled at all:
Solomon Spalding and Revisionist History
i said earlier that it's possible Smith himself stole Spalding's mss, but that was something i said from memory which proves technically incorrect. if Smith came into possession of it, it was after it was stolen by an associate of Smith's. prior to ((and indeed also after)) announcing himself as the only non-heretical man, prophet and apostle in the world, Smith had a very poor ethical reputation, and it would surprise no one that he would be involved in such activities as forgery, theft, or any deceptive practice that he felt might result in his own personal gain - but Smith himself is very unlikely to have been the person who took Spalding's work in the first place, even if he knowingly later came to have it and plagiarize it.
i apologize for raising suspicion about Smith's direct involvement in this particular reported theft, but that not to the point of exonerating what is known of his character.
C
CAH2
Guest
It is true that their is a Spalding theory, which proposes that Joseph Smith and Sydney Rigdon conspired together to plagiarize the BofM from Spaulding's Manuscript, Found. With that said, it seems that there is evidence for & against said theory which is used to debate for and against the argument. Either way, there is no way to prove it with 100% accuracy. We can conjecture about the BofM's validity from this evidence all we want but it won't lead to the proof either pro-mormon or anti-mormons seek. Bruno, in this same thread, asked me how I knew the BofM to be true and I responded that it requires a spiritual undertaking, not only "worldly" evidence. With that said, "worldly" evidence can help formulate one's belief. But the point that I am making is that the things of God are very often unexplainable (Mary's conception, the raising of man from the dead, shadrach meshach and abednego's being thrown into the fire but not being burned, Moses parting the Red Sea, etc.....). Our sciences and historical evidences cannot prove how these things happened or if they happened. We simply rely on spirituality, or, my of way of saying it, we rely on the testimony of the Holy Ghost to know what is true. Joseph Smith's story started by turning to the Lord as he was inspired by James 1:5 "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not, and it shall be given him." Although many despise Joseph Smith, he at least followed this first principle, which was to seek truth directly with a prayer to God. We may disagree as to what is truth, but I believe we can agree that we ought to build our relationship with Christ and always seek truth through him, praying to him and opening ourselves to answers with which He responds.
this is what i did. according to the earliest accounts of J. Smith, this is not what he did. he changed his story over time; that's historical fact.
but this is what i did. i prayed, much.
i read.
almost immediately, beginning to read the BOM, contradictions with the Torah & the prophets arose in my mind. literally from the first few chapters. and they continued as i continued to read.
God was showing me something - would i deny the very Spirit i'd prayed for, for guidance?
and yes, i felt fire in my belly, seeing the truth.
so what do you make of that, CAH2?
i asked the same question in a post recently. i'd like to ask you directly: i prayed, i devoted myself to God with as open a mind as i could, and devoted myself to hearing Him, and i read the BOM. my testimony is that the Holy Spirit showed me that it is not from God, but from man.
what do you say to that?
and this isn't even about the doctrine of your prophets - it's about that text itself. it's not even a question about origin of it: it's about the validity of the work of the Spirit in my own life experience. shall i blaspheme the Spirit? or will you dare to?
did i hear from the Spirit of God or from a devil when i faithfully prayed to God for understanding, picked up the BOM, and read it?
on what basis would you make your judgement of what happened to me?
Last edited:
C
CAH2
Guest
Posthuman, I admire your willingness to read the BofM and to get on your knees and pray with an open mind. That means a lot. Not everyone would do that. I am not sure why you feel the way you do. Only God does. The only thing I can tell you is to keep seeking God and His truth and He will guide you as He sees fit. If you continue to accept His guidance then He will lead you to where He wants you to go.
More scriptures that I love regarding seeking God and how he answers us.... I know for me that I struggle to always know how God speaks to me. I think it is a learning process. But the more we strive, seeking, pondering, praying, and testing the answers we believe we receive, God guides us and gives us more and more, ".... here a little and there a little...." until our understanding becomes more complete.
Matthew 7:7 "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.."
John 14:16 states "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."And Galatians 5:22-23 states: "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."
May God bless us all in our life's journey as we seek Him.
yes, for example, to go here, and to meet you, and to relate this to you!
it is no accident
C
CAH2
Guest
Posthuman, you mentioned that you had read the BofM and as you read it you felt terrible. What did you read in the BofM that made you feel that way?
Hi cah2, I think what posthuman meant when he read the BofM was what he said to you here in his other post to you.
"this is what i did. according to the earliest accounts of J. Smith, this is not what he did. he changed his story over time; that's historical fact.
but this is what i did. i prayed, much.
i read.
almost immediately, beginning to read the BOM, contradictions with the Torah & the prophets arose in my mind. literally from the first few chapters. and they continued as i continued to read.
God was showing me something - would i deny the very Spirit i'd prayed for, for guidance?
and yes, i felt fire in my belly, seeing the truth."
In other words, he was concerned about all the contradictions in the bofm with what the Bible says and teaches. In fact, he said, "I felt fire in my belly, seeing the truth" alluding to the "burning in the bosom" as it realates to the truth of the Bible and not the bofm.
Now, I well aware of moroni 10:4 as it relates to praying to see if the bofm is true. I'm also aware that James 1:5 is quoted to back up praying as instructed by moroni 10:4. There are a number of problems with this line of reasoning on the mormon side.
James 1:5 was written to believers and what James 1:5 is teaching is to pray for wisdom in the handling of problems or trials that may arise, see James 1:2. Secondly, praying about the bofm is praying for knowledge to veryify that the bofm is true. So let me ask you this question? If you were in a history class would you pray for wisdom that the history you are being taught is true?
Thirdly, by praying that the bofm is true according to moroni 10:4 is what's know as the fallacy of "circular reasoning." Your asking someone to pray that the bofm is true by quoting or doing what the bofm says. This is a false dilemma because it encourages the person having a positive religious experience to "ASSUME" the bofm is true.
What if they do not have a positive religious experience? They are told they were not really sincere in heart. In short, you assume in your argument regarding moroni 10:4 the conclusion your are trying to prove, i.e. circular reasoning or "begging" the question.
Which brings me to ask you of all the prophecies that joseph smith has made or given please name one that has come to pass correctly?
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
I would suggest name one that does not violate the warning not to add to the sealed book of prophecy which we no longer have in part .The perfect came as God puts his thoughts on the mind of His prophet John.
Need more? Those who desire to go above that which is written by adding will receive the plagues written in the whole book of the perfect law ,the Bible.
Name one law that is not written by which we could know God more adequately?
You are naive, very very naive.
I do not need to "know" a Mormon to understand Mormonism.
I do not need to "know" a Nazi to understand Nazism.
I do not need to "know" a pagan to understand paganism.
etc.
Theology is not based on its members or followers but its founders and leaders.
While the BOM is not what most Christians would consider as "the Word of God", we should be fair in saying that the Gospel is presented in the BOM in several places. However, it would appear that this book was created after reading the Gospel narratives in the Bible. I could quote many other passages but these three should suffice. However, Mormon doctrine goes way beyond Bible truth.
And he also spake concerning the prophets, how great a number had testified of these things, concerning this Messiah, of whom he had spoken, or this Redeemer of the world. (1 Nephi 10:5)
And after he had baptized the Messiah with water, he should behold and bear record that he had baptized the Lamb of God, who should take away the sins of the world. (1 Nephi 10:10)
And I looked and beheld the Redeemer of the world, of whom my father had spoken; and I also beheld the prophet who should prepare the way before him. And the Lamb of God went forth and was baptized of him; and after he was baptized, I beheld the heavens open, and the Holy Ghost come down out of heaven and abide upon him in the form of a dove. (1 Nephi 11:27).