Sabbath

[LoveGodForever]

When Paul is addressing how any believer esteem any day or regard any day as unto the Lord, it cannot exclude the sabbath day.

Do set aside every learned lesson you had from SDA and please read what Paul is actually saying here for why no believer can judge another believer for how they esteem or regard a day unto the Lord or not esteem nor regard a day as unto the Lord for the reason why is because they are the Lord's.

Romans 14:[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.[SUP] 5 [/SUP]One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.[SUP] 6 [/SUP]He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.[SUP] 7 [/SUP]For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.[SUP] 8 [/SUP]For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.[SUP]9 [/SUP]For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.[SUP] 10 [/SUP]But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Hi Enow,

Absolutely not friend the Chapter does not even mention the 7th Day Sabbath. It is more in line however with Col chapter 2 in reference to the ceremonial festivals which is consistent with Paul's teachings.

Sorry but the passage context reveals that Romans 14:5 refers to the Jewish institutions and especially their festivals such as the Passover, Day of Atonement, the new moons etc, and meat sacrificed to idols. This is in line with Paul's teachings in Colossians Chapter 2. Some Jews who did not yet know or understand the Gospel message thought these days still had to be observed while the Gentile Christian not having ever kept these feast days knew they were under no obligation to keep them. Consequently there was disagreement between Jews and Gentiles over keeping these sacrificial feasts that ended at the cross.

So Paul is instructing them to consider those whose faith enables them to immediately to leave behind all ceremonial holidays and not to despise others whose faith is not as strong. And also for the latter to not criticize those who seem to them to be more lax but are not as they understand they are under no obligation to keep these Jewish feast days that were instituted because of sin and hence why they ended at the cross. This is what caused the enmity between Jew and Gentiles before the cross that Paul spoke of in Ephesians 2:15 “Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace.”

I will repeat this again because it is important you can't read something into scripture that is not there. In Romans 14 there is not one word mentioning God’s Sabbath so this is not relevant to God’s 7[SUP]th[/SUP] Day Sabbath my friend.

In Christ Always!

 

[Enow]

Hi Enow,

Hi LoveGodForever,

Absolutely not friend the Chapter does not even mention the 7th Day Sabbath.

It does not have to. If believers were to regard the sabbath day and were in the practice of esteeming and regarding the sabbath day back then as UNTO the Lord, then Paul was careless with his words, because they can apply his words to the sabbath day which they would be esteeming and regarding as unto the Lord and so this goes to show that they were not esteeming nor regarding the sabbath day.

Romans 14:[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.[SUP] 5 [/SUP]One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.[SUP] 6 [/SUP]He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.[SUP] 7 [/SUP]For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.[SUP] 8 [/SUP]For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.[SUP]9 [/SUP]For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.[SUP] 10 [/SUP]But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

If we are NOT to judge a brother for NOT esteeming or regarding a day as unto the Lord, then that has to include the sabbath day when Jews under the Old Covenant were esteeming & regarding that day as unto the Lord.

Any believer are free to esteem or regard the sabbath day as unto the Lord just as any believer are free to not esteem or regard the sabbath day as unto the Lord for they are both the Lord's.

It is judging others for not esteeming nor regarding the sabbath day unto the Lord that you are ignoring the weight of Paul's words of warning here.

 

[LoveGodForever]

Hi LoveGodForever,



It does not have to. If believers were to regard the sabbath day and were in the practice of esteeming and regarding the sabbath day back then as UNTO the Lord, then Paul was careless with his words, because they can apply his words to the sabbath day which they would be esteeming and regarding as unto the Lord and so this goes to show that they were not esteeming nor regarding the sabbath day.

If we are NOT to judge a brother for NOT esteeming or regarding a day as unto the Lord, then that has to include the sabbath day when Jews under the Old Covenant were esteeming & regarding that day as unto the Lord.

Any believer are free to esteem or regard the sabbath day as unto the Lord just as any believer are free to not esteem or regard the sabbath day as unto the Lord for they are both the Lord's.

It is judging others for not esteeming nor regarding the sabbath day unto the Lord that you are ignoring the weight of Paul's words of warning here.

Lets agree to disagree. To me it is consistent with what Paul is talking about in the ceremonial laws of Moses in Colossians Chapter 2 and the context of Rom 14 is also similar to what is discussed in Acts Chapter 15 where the Jewish converts were judging the Gentiles because they were not keeping the ceremonial laws of Moses. Fact is Romans Chapter 14 says nothing about the 7th Day Sabbath but it is consistent in regards to the other writings of Paul referring to the ceremonial laws of Moses and the annual Jewish festivals. Reading something into a few scriptures does not make your interpretation correct unless you can back it up with other scripture. You have been provided both context and other scriptures for reference. My prayer is that you may consider these. If not lets agree to disagree. How you read the Sabbath into Romans 14 is beyond me when it does not even mention it.

God's Blessing

 

[unobtrusive]

Hi LoveGodForever,



It does not have to. If believers were to regard the sabbath day and were in the practice of esteeming and regarding the sabbath day back then as UNTO the Lord, then Paul was careless with his words, because they can apply his words to the sabbath day which they would be esteeming and regarding as unto the Lord and so this goes to show that they were not esteeming nor regarding the sabbath day.

Romans 14:[SUP]4 [/SUP]Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.[SUP] 5 [/SUP]One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.[SUP] 6 [/SUP]He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.[SUP] 7 [/SUP]For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.[SUP] 8 [/SUP]For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.[SUP]9 [/SUP]For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.[SUP] 10 [/SUP]But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

If we are NOT to judge a brother for NOT esteeming or regarding a day as unto the Lord, then that has to include the sabbath day when Jews under the Old Covenant were esteeming & regarding that day as unto the Lord.

Any believer are free to esteem or regard the sabbath day as unto the Lord just as any believer are free to not esteem or regard the sabbath day as unto the Lord for they are both the Lord's.

It is judging others for not esteeming nor regarding the sabbath day unto the Lord that you are ignoring the weight of Paul's words of warning here.

By reading the complete chapter, especially the way it begins and ends, I think this scripture is focused on the food certain people eat on a certain day of the week, instead of the Sabbath day, when a person ate vegetables, or meat, or even fasted on this day or that day. This book of Romans addresses the Jews that were in Rome, and eating food had been incorporated within Judaizing rituals of man, not God's law. Paul is saying that these practices are not worth debating over. Nevertheless Enow, you do make some very good points.

 

[prove-all]

When Paul is addressing how any believer esteem any day
or regard any day as unto the Lord, it cannot exclude the sabbath day.

.

Romans 14...

Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
The first thing we see here is that this chapter is about relating to a weak brother.

Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

The subject here? Vegetarianism

Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth
not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

So, if you encounter one who is weak in the faith and believes he must eat vegetables only,
don’t let this puff you up…

2Co 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some
that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing
themselves among themselves, are not wise.

What is the gold standard here?

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us,
leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God,
unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth
or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Now to the meat and potatoes…

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike.
Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day,
to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks;
and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Why is eating and fasting (not eating) connected to days here? Let’s see…

Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee,
that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

From Bullingers Companion Bible…

Luke 18:12

twice in the week. The law prescribed only one in the year (Lev_16:29. Num_29:7).
By the time of Zec_8:19 there were four yearly fasts.
In our Lord's day they were bi-weekly (Monday and Thursday), between Passover and Pentecost;
and between the Feast of Tabernacles and the Dedication.

Yes they fasted two days a week, Monday and Thursday, EVERY MONDAY and EVERY THURSDAY.

Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
Rom 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord:
whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both
of the dead and living.
Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother?
for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather,
that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Rom 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself:
but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Rom 14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably.
Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

Now Paul shifts his attention to meat offered to idols. At the time, meat and drink were offered
to pagan idols. After it was offered it was sold in a meat market called the ‘Shambles’.

1Co 10:25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:

Shambles…

G3111
µa´?e????
makellon
Thayer Definition:
1) a place where meat and other articles of food are sold, meat market
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: of Latin origin [macellum]
Citing in TDNT: 4:370, 549

There were those who were weak in the faith (verse 1) who were offended by this.
They somehow thought that eating that food was somehow connecting them with the
idolatrous practices around them. This is why the following is written…

Rom 14:16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness,
and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Meat here is…

G1035
ß???s??
bro¯sis
bro'-sis
From the base of G977; (abstractly) eating (literally or figuratively);
by extension (concretely) food (literally or figuratively): - eating, food, meat.

Notice it is food, not clean or unclean flesh.

G4213
p?´s??
posis
pos'-is
From the alternate of G4095; a drinking (the act), that is, (concretely) a draught: - drink.

Drinking, can be alcoholic or non-alcoholic beverages. Paul was dealing with ascetism
and the belief that doing without was somehow a show of character.
He dealt with this issue at Colossae also…

Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility,
and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Rom 14:18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
Rom 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace,
and things wherewith one may edify another.
Rom 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure;
but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

The word for meat here is broma, from Thayer’s…

G1033
ß???µa
bro¯ma
Thayer Definition:
1) that which is eaten, food
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from the base of G977
Citing in TDNT: 1:642, 111

Again, we are dealing with food.

Rom 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby
thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

So, it is not dealing with clean and unclean, but with flesh (meat) and wine (drink)
that makes a weak brother stumble.

Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God.
Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith:
for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

There is no passage in Rom 14 that deals with the Sabbath or clean and unclean meats.
The subjects are vegetarianism, fasting and food and drink offered to idols.

 

[LoveGodForever]

By reading the complete chapter, especially the way it begins and ends, I think this scripture is focused on the food certain people eat on a certain day of the week, instead of the Sabbath day, when a person ate vegetables, or meat, or even fasted on this day or that day. This book of Romans addresses the Jews that were in Rome, and eating food had become a Judaizing ritual. Paul is saying that these practices are not worth debating over. Nevertheless Enow, you do make some very good points.

Hi Unobtrusive

Nice to meet you. If you have a read of the ceremonial laws in Lev 23 similar to Col 2 you will see it is talking about the Jewish annual feast days. The context of Rom 14 was in regards to the Jewish converts judging the Gentile believers in relation to the ceremonial laws of Lev 23 in keeping the annual festival holy days. There was contention similar to the Jewish believers trying to force the Gentiles to follow the ceremonial laws of circumcision. Have a read of Acts 15, Col 2 and Rom 14. They are all similar and the context of all of them is the ceremonial laws of Moses that were nailed to the cross because they all pointed to Jesus. Its a nice study. Romans 14 is not talking about the Sabbath at all and does not even mention it. Have a read of the ceremonial feast days in Leviticus 23 for reference.

God bless brother!

 

[LoveGodForever]

Romans 14...

Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
The first thing we see here is that this chapter is about relating to a weak brother.

Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

The subject here? Vegetarianism

Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth
not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

So, if you encounter one who is weak in the faith and believes he must eat vegetables only,
don’t let this puff you up…

2Co 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some
that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing
themselves among themselves, are not wise.

What is the gold standard here?

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us,
leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God,
unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth
or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Now to the meat and potatoes…

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike.
Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day,
to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks;
and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Why is eating and fasting (not eating) connected to days here? Let’s see…

Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee,
that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

From Bullingers Companion Bible…

Luke 18:12

twice in the week. The law prescribed only one in the year (Lev_16:29. Num_29:7).
By the time of Zec_8:19 there were four yearly fasts.
In our Lord's day they were bi-weekly (Monday and Thursday), between Passover and Pentecost;
and between the Feast of Tabernacles and the Dedication.

Yes they fasted two days a week, Monday and Thursday, EVERY MONDAY and EVERY THURSDAY.

Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
Rom 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord:
whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both
of the dead and living.
Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother?
for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather,
that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Rom 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself:
but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Rom 14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably.
Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

Now Paul shifts his attention to meat offered to idols. At the time, meat and drink were offered
to pagan idols. After it was offered it was sold in a meat market called the ‘Shambles’.

1Co 10:25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:

Shambles…

G3111
µa´?e????
makellon
Thayer Definition:
1) a place where meat and other articles of food are sold, meat market
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: of Latin origin [macellum]
Citing in TDNT: 4:370, 549

There were those who were weak in the faith (verse 1) who were offended by this.
They somehow thought that eating that food was somehow connecting them with the
idolatrous practices around them. This is why the following is written…

Rom 14:16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness,
and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Meat here is…

G1035
ß???s??
bro¯sis
bro'-sis
From the base of G977; (abstractly) eating (literally or figuratively);
by extension (concretely) food (literally or figuratively): - eating, food, meat.

Notice it is food, not clean or unclean flesh.

G4213
p?´s??
posis
pos'-is
From the alternate of G4095; a drinking (the act), that is, (concretely) a draught: - drink.

Drinking, can be alcoholic or non-alcoholic beverages. Paul was dealing with ascetism
and the belief that doing without was somehow a show of character.
He dealt with this issue at Colossae also…

Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility,
and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Rom 14:18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
Rom 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace,
and things wherewith one may edify another.
Rom 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure;
but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

The word for meat here is broma, from Thayer’s…

G1033
ß???µa
bro¯ma
Thayer Definition:
1) that which is eaten, food
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from the base of G977
Citing in TDNT: 1:642, 111

Again, we are dealing with food.

Rom 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby
thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

So, it is not dealing with clean and unclean, but with flesh (meat) and wine (drink)
that makes a weak brother stumble.

Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God.
Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith:
for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

There is no passage in Rom 14 that deals with the Sabbath or clean and unclean meats.
The subjects are vegetarianism, fasting and food and drink offered to idols.

Hi Brother Prove-All,

Nice to meet you. I know think I am a new comer compared to you. Great post on Romans 14. BIG Agree!

God bless

 

[JohnTalmid]

Lawlessness is just what it says and also wormwood and teachings of various kinds that would point away from obeying all the ways of Messiah Yahshua and his Father. If I have said you are condemned by not keeping the Sabbath it would be wrong of me. However I have never condemned any for not keeping Sabbath. What I have said which agrees totally with Messiah, his teachings, and all the prophets. If you are following the Messiah and not guarding his Father's commands you couldn't be following the Messiah of Elohim YHWH who knows how to separate soul from spirit and sent his son for us to learn from and receive the free gift of life. There are many things to say but I conclude with, we shall stand before a judgment seat and Messiah who will judge on says what His Father says, and only judges as his Father teaches him. Do you really believe that the God of Heaven and Earth can not make his spirit rest on you in your humble attempt at practice of what is written for our example? He will do more than that because Judgment is upon us all soon. Fear of God is not wrong when it leads a soul to change their mind and heart to agree with God.

 

[unobtrusive]

Hi Unobtrusive

Nice to meet you. If you have a read of the ceremonial laws in Lev 23 similar to Col 2 you will see it is talking about the Jewish annual feast days. The context of Rom 14 was in regards to the Jewish converts judging the Gentile believers in relation to the ceremonial laws of Lev 23 in keeping the annual festival holy days. There was contention similar to the Jewish believers trying to force the Gentiles to follow the ceremonial laws of circumcision. Have a read of Acts 15, Col 2 and Rom 14. They are all similar and the context of all of them is the ceremonial laws of Moses that were nailed to the cross because they all pointed to Jesus. Its a nice study. Romans 14 is not talking about the Sabbath at all and does not even mention it. Have a read of the ceremonial feast days in Leviticus 23 for reference.

God bless brother!

Yes, they are similar and I agree that Judaizers, and Pagans alike were judging new Gentile converts who grew up practicing pagan religion until their conversion. I was just addressing Romans 14 only, and yes, it is related. I just don't think that keeping the Sabbath day is the main focus in Romans 14, even though days are labelled as esteeming one over another.

Like any writing/document, the writer begins by endorsing the format (subject at hand) of what he's thinking, and then at the end summarizes the subject addressed.

Paul begins with...
1.Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. [SUP]
2 [/SUP]For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

Then he ends with...
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

That's all I was presenting, and God's blessing back to you brother!!

 

[unobtrusive]

Lawlessness is just what it says and also wormwood and teachings of various kinds that would point away from obeying all the ways of Messiah Yahshua and his Father. If I have said you are condemned by not keeping the Sabbath it would be wrong of me. However I have never condemned any for not keeping Sabbath. What I have said which agrees totally with Messiah, his teachings, and all the prophets. If you are following the Messiah and not guarding his Father's commands you couldn't be following the Messiah of Elohim YHWH who knows how to separate soul from spirit and sent his son for us to learn from and receive the free gift of life. There are many things to say but I conclude with, we shall stand before a judgment seat and Messiah who will judge on says what His Father says, and only judges as his Father teaches him. Do you really believe that the God of Heaven and Earth can not make his spirit rest on you in your humble attempt at practice of what is written for our example? He will do more than that because Judgment is upon us all soon. Fear of God is not wrong when it leads a soul to change their mind and heart to agree with God.

Good points you make brother!
The Jewish disciples of Jesus (Yeshua) were very vigilant in wanting the Torah and the Prophets read to the Gentile converts every Sabbath day. After the discrepancy of circumcision was resolved and basic principles were given to the Gentile converts, they were happy to know that they had given a starting point , and then they would be able to grow in the knowledge of our Lord (YHWH) by listening to the Torah being read every Sabbath day.

Acts 15:19-21
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

1 Corinthians 9:19-22
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
[SUP]21[/SUP]To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

 

[loveme1]

John 7

19Did not Moses give you the law, and yetnone of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? 20The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee? 21Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel. 22Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man. 23If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day? 24Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.


lovely Teaching from Our Lord for us all.

Does it not teach us something about law of Moses and Commandments of GOD?

For those that can recieve.

 

[unobtrusive]

John 7

19Did not Moses give you the law, and yetnone of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? 20The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee? 21Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel. 22Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man. 23If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day? 24Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.


lovely Teaching from Our Lord for us all.

Does it not teach us something about law of Moses and Commandments of GOD?

For those that can recieve.

Very Good scripture you present!!
In my estimation the Sabbath was given to us in order to do the works of God Almighty, just like our Saviour Jesus Christ. We can bust our posterior on the Sabbath as long as it is the right thing to do according to our Creator and Master. That's what the Sabbath is for, to do His works, NOT ours. It was made or us. We were not made for it.

 

[loveme1]

Very Good scripture you present!!
In my estimation the Sabbath was given to us in order to do the works of God Almighty, just like our Saviour Jesus Christ. We can bust our posterior on the Sabbath as long as it is the right thing to do according to our Creator and Master. That's what the Sabbath is for, to do His works, NOT ours. It was made or us. We were not made for it.

It is lawful to do good indeed... we are at liberty we are under grace... and let us therefore choose to love and serve.. to Worship in Spirit and Truth.

A little more meat before sleep:


John 6

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.


Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

[loveme1]

Lawlessness is just what it says and also wormwood and teachings of various kinds that would point away from obeying all the ways of Messiah Yahshua and his Father. If I have said you are condemned by not keeping the Sabbath it would be wrong of me. However I have never condemned any for not keeping Sabbath. What I have said which agrees totally with Messiah, his teachings, and all the prophets. If you are following the Messiah and not guarding his Father's commands you couldn't be following the Messiah of Elohim YHWH who knows how to separate soul from spirit and sent his son for us to learn from and receive the free gift of life. There are many things to say but I conclude with, we shall stand before a judgment seat and Messiah who will judge on says what His Father says, and only judges as his Father teaches him. Do you really believe that the God of Heaven and Earth can not make his spirit rest on you in your humble attempt at practice of what is written for our example? He will do more than that because Judgment is upon us all soon. Fear of God is not wrong when it leads a soul to change their mind and heart to agree with God.

GOD made a New Covenant through His Son not like the one they broke.. GOD puts His Law within us by Grace through Faith.

The promise to Abraham is kept and the circumcision was a seal of the Righteousness of Faith.

The law of Moses was to bring the Messiah in to the world .. but now The Messiah is our Mediator and we are to adhere to Him. It is not against the law but it fulfills it... and the New Covenant is of GOD by Grace and Mercy.

Many are highminded against the natural branches not realising all things came to pass for us to recieve Salvation by Believing through their unbelief... and then may the natural believe and be grafted in to the Good vine to bear fruit acceptable to GOD because of the True vine the branch whether natural or wild.. neither grafted in by circumcision or uncircumcision of flesh but that the heart of those who believe are circumcised.


We need not keep the law of Moses knowing it was superceded by the Power and Authority of Heavenly Father. A Great work evolves throughout.. all in good time.

Bond servants indeed.

 

[DiscipleDave]

Hi Dave,

Seems like you do not believe God's Word and have ignored the posts sent to you.

i believe God's Word, i just don't believe mens word which teaches things that God's Word does not teach. For example Jesus nor any Apostle EVER taught us Christians to keep the Sabbath. That is what men of the last day teach, trying to add extra burdens to the servants of the Lord.

Your premise to everything you say is "Where does it command us to keep the Sabbath in the New Testament"

And yet you have FAILED to reveal one verse to answer that question, which is the point of the premise.

My questions to you have not been answered;

i am certain you can't reveal to me one question that you have asked me, that i have not answered.

1. Why would God need to give His Law again when he had already given it to God's people 430 years earlier in the time of Moses?

Why are we Christians taught we are no longer under the Law, but under the law of Liberty? God did not give His Laws again. Jesus was quite clear when He said "A NEW COMMANDMENT I give unto you, to Love One Another" In saying "A NEW Commandment" He made all others prior to that OLD.
Do you not believe the Apostle John when he PLAINLY and CLEARLY told us what HIS (Jesus Christ) Commandments are?

1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

And what does the Word of God teach us HIS COMMANDMENTS ARE: pay attention the next verse PLAINLY and CLEARLY teaches us what HIS COMMANDMENTS ARE:

1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should 1) believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and 2) love one another, as he gave us commandment.

So who should i believe? Men which teach we are to keep commandments given to the Isralites under the OLD Covenant, or believe the Apostle John who plainly and clearly tells us what HIS COMMANDMENTS are? Do you believe the Apostle John when he tells us what His Commandments are, or do you believe His commandments are something other than what the inspired by God, Holy Ghost filled Apostle just told us His Commandments were?
People, believe the Word of God, NOT what men teach.

The Sabbath is all through the old and New Testament and Jesus and the disciples kept it. Jesus says he made it for mankind and he is the Lord of the Sabbath. (Gen 2:1-3; Mark 2:27-28 all the others you ignore) It does not say he is the Sabbath.

Jesus and the Apostles kept all 600+ commandments of Moses. Are you indicating that we also should keep all 640+ commandments of the Old testament too, because Jesus and the Apostles all kept them? Seriously?

2. If God's people already had God's Law (10 commandments) why would God need to give it to them again?

God's Law (10 Commandments) was given to the Israelites to follow and obey, which is the Old Covenant between God and Israel. We, Christians are under a New Covenant, and not under the Laws of the Old.

3. Everything in the New Testament comes from the Old Testament are you saying that everything in the Old Testament is no longer required now and we should just believe the New Testament?

It is called the OLD Testament for a reason, it is OLD. We Christians are under a New Testament, to follow and to obey. The OLD Testament is still relevant to us to this day, because prophesies of the Old Testament have not yet been fulfilled. HOWEVER instructions, ordinances, laws, statutes that were given to the Israelites to follow and to obey, we as Christians are not under such things. We are to do as Jesus Christ and His Apostles instructs us to do. And Jesus nor any Apostle teaches us Christians to continue to keep the Commandments given to Israel under the OLD Covenant.

Even if we only believe the New Testament the Sabbath is still there as well as the rest of God's Law.

You keep teaching that, yet there is not one verse which instructs, tells, or commands us to continue to Keep the Sabbath Day Holy. A point that you seem to not agree with or accept.

3 Where is the commandment in the New Testament saying that God's Sabbath is abolished and we are now commanded to follow Sunday worship in place of God's 4th commandment?

Nowhere is God's Sabbath abolished. We Christians under a new covenant with Jesus Christ are not commanded to keep it. Are we COMMANDED to give to the poor? Are we COMMANDED to clothe the naked? Are we COMMANDED to feed the hungry? These things we should do, but are NOT COMMANDED to do. Keeping the Sabbath to the Lord, is a good thing to do. i have done it for over 10 years, because it is something that i WANT to do for the Lord Jesus Christ. It is NOT something that i MUST do, it is not something that is COMMANDED to do. It is not required to do for one to be Saved. Those who teach you MUST do this or that, and you must NOT do this or that, which the Word of God does not instruct us to do, are only causing Strife and confusion among the servants of Jesus Christ, these will not escape His wrath when it comes upon the whole Earth.

4. Where is the 3rd commandment in the New Testament that says not to take the Lords name in vain? Because it is not in the New testament does that now mean we can take God's name in vain? (Serious?)

Answer me this. if i take the Lords Name in vain, am i then going to Hell? What, i can lose my Salvation if i take the Lord's name in vain? If i do NOT keep the Sabbath, what then? Am i Hell bound? Do i then become UNSAVED because i fail to keep the Sabbath? Answer?

I write this with all respect but you can see the logic behind your reasoning.

Yes, i can see the logic behind my reasoning.

The only "Moot" around is that coming from your posts because you do not know God's Word and you are trying to twist scripture to justify breaking God's Law.

i have read the entire Bible front to back over 80 times and sayest thou to me, i do not know the Word? That is like unto a person telling you do not understand that Movie because I have seen it four times to a person who has watched it 80 times.
i read the entire Bible 3 times before i was 12 years old. If you were to ask anyone who knows me personally, they would all tell you that they do not know a person who knows the Bible more. If i am bragging it is because you have provoked me to do so. But what better bragging can there be then reading and breathing and eating the Word of God. i Love it, I LIVE IT.
What kind of prophet would i be if God did not reveal to me the understanding of the Word of God, which i was born to teach to a people who would reject it?

The Jews did the same thing in the days of Jesus. You can read about it here (Matt 15:3-9). The scriptures clearly teach us that if we follow the teachings and traditions of man in place of the Word of God then we are an "Unbeliever".

Absolutely True. Teachings of men teach that Christians MUST keep the Sabbath, and Jesus nor any Apostle, nor the Word of God teaches that thing. If you think it does, then reveal the verse that instructs Christians to keep the Sabbath, else it is ONLY YOUR interpretations that think a person MUST keep the Sabbath and NOT what Scriptures actually teaches.

Sunday Worship is a teaching and tradition of man.

Sunday Worship, Saturday Worship, Monday Worship, God is pleased if a person Worships PERIOD. ONLY men are concerned which day to Worship. Do you want to know which Day is acceptable to God to worship Him? Pay attention here. Any Day is acceptable with God, Every Day is even better. This generation will fight and argue over which Day is the best day to worship the Lord. EVERY DAY is acceptable with Him.

We must follow the Word of God over the teachings and traditions of man. We follow Jesus because we love him how about you?

i do all things to please Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior, ALL THINGS. i obey Jesus in EVERYTHING, and not once does He instruct anyone to Keep the Sabbath Day, that is what men instruct us Christians to do. Men are teaching us that we MUST keep the Sabbath, and Jesus nor any Apostle ever said such things, nor commanded us to continue to keep the Sabbath, that is what men teach.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

Originally Posted by DiscipleDave

Answer me this question.

The verses :

Exo 34:27 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel. (Notice this covenant was made SPECIFICALLY to Moses and ISRAEL. NOBODY ELSE)
Exo 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

Answer me this question. What covenant was this referring to?

If you answered "Old Covenant" you are correct, if you answered something other than OLD COVENANT, you got the question wrong.

The 10 Commandments was a covenant made to, and for, the ISRAELITES, = FACT. To say we Christians are to continue to keep a covenant that was made between God and Israel, (which according to the Word of God above, is the 10 commandments) is to teach false doctrine. Woe to those who think they know the TRUTH, and lead the sheep astray with their doctrines. The Word of God is TRUE, the words of men are false. The Word of God above plainly teaches us that the 10 commandments was a COVENANT between God and who? ISRAEL!!!! To teach that we are to continue to keep that particular covenant made between God and Israel is from the minds of humans, and not from God. Anyone who teaches others things that are contrary to Scriptures, shall not escape His wrath. Therefore believe the Word of God, not the word of men.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

Hi Dave answering my question with a question is not answering my question now is it? In order you answer your question you need to know the difference between God's Law (10 commandments) and the laws of Moses and why they were given.

God's Law (10 Commandments) was a covenant made by God to the Israelite people.
Laws of Moses were laws given by Moses to the Israelite people.
BOTH of which was the OLD Covenant between God and Israel. It seems this is something that you do not see nor understand.

Can we start from here and move forward? I am happy to share the Word of God with you. What do you say?

Sure.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[DiscipleDave]

10 Commandments = OLD Covenant between God and Israel.
Laws of Moses ADDED more things the Israelites were commanded to do, still Old Covenant.

New Covenant = Believe in Jesus AND Love One Another This is covenant made between God and Christians.

The Apostle John is the only one who teaches Keep His Commandments:

• John 14:15 If ye love Me, keep My commandments.
  

• John 15:10 If ye keep My commandments, ye shall abide in My love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in His love.
  

• I John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

• Revelations 22:14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Now men of this generation will teach you that His Commandments are the 10 Commandments that was given to the Israelites to follow and obey. But what does the Word of God teach? Does the Apostle John who said all the verses above which teach to Keep His Commandments, tell us what His Commandments are? Why Yes he does. WOW. The Apostle John says and teaches us to Keep His Commandments, and then the Apostle John inspired by the Holy Ghost also tells us Plainly what His Commandments are. But those who are blind will not see or understand his words.

1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

Remember men of this generation teaches His Commandments are the 10 Commandments. What does the Apostle John plainly teach us His Commandments are?

1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment, That we should (1) believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and (2) love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

There you have it, The Word of God by the mouth of the Apostle John plainly and clearly tells us what His Commandments are: Do not believe any person who tries to teach you otherwise, they are blind and deceived and will have you follow them straight into a pit. Believe the Word of God NOT what men teach.

^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave

 

[Shilo]

Mark 7:8You have disregarded the commandment of God to keep the tradition of men.” 9He went on to say, “You neatly set aside the commandment of God to maintain your own tradition.
[video=youtube;CrB21mc2fmI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrB21mc2fmI[/video]

 

[Grace777x70]

Wait until they come out with a video where they say:

"We have exchanged the law as outlined in the Old Testament way of Sabbath keeping to fully embrace the work of Christ as being our true Sabbath rest and the Old Testament way is a shadow of the real substance which is Christ Himself."

There is no such thing as Saturday or Sunday as being "the way" today regarding the keeping of the Sabbath - it is all fulfilled in Christ in the New Covenant. He alone is our true Sabbath rest.

 

[unobtrusive]

Wait until they come out with a video where they say:

"We have exchanged the law as outlined in the Old Testament way of Sabbath keeping to fully embrace the work of Christ as being our true Sabbath rest and the Old Testament way is a shadow of the real substance which is Christ Himself."

There is no such thing as Saturday or Sunday as being "the way" today regarding the keeping of the Sabbath - it is all fulfilled in Christ in the New Covenant. He alone is our true Sabbath rest.

Your post spurred me to be redundant and post this again...
I think this is important.

The Romans knew of seven bright objects in the sky: the Sun, the Moon, and five brightest planets. They named them after their most important gods. Saturn was named after the Roman god of agriculture. According to myth, Saturn introduced agriculture to his people by teaching them how to farm the land. Saturn was also the Roman god of time and this is perhaps why the slowest (in orbit around the Sun) of the five bright planets was named after him. In Roman mythology, Saturn was the father of Jupiter. Saturday is also named after the Roman god Saturn (Saturn's Day).

The Julian calendar was established in 45 B.C. Like the calendar of the Roman Republic before it, the early Julian calendar had an eight day week! Days of the week on the Republican (Roman Republic) and early Julian calendars were assigned letters: A through H. All early Julian calendars (fasti) still in existence date from 63 B.C. to A.D. 37.

The Baths of Titus, in Rome, were built A.D. 79-81. A stick calendar was found there which clearly shows Saturn, god of agriculture, as god of the first day of the week.

The pagan planetary week, like the Julian calendar that adopted it, is irreparably pagan. Historical facts reveal that neither the Scriptural Sabbath nor the Scriptural First Day can be found using the modern calendar. If it is important to worship on a specific day (which it is), then it is also important to use the correct, Scriptural calendar to count to that day.

But God is a merciful God unlike the others

There were two calendars available to the Israelites of Jesus’ day:

1. The pagan, solar Julian calendar with its eight-day week;
2. The Biblical, luni-solar Hebrew calendar with a seven-day week and a weekly cycle that restarted with each new moon.

It just might be that the first day of every new moon (biblical term for month) was a Sabbath day. Biblical days are numbered, not named. Which calendar do you think the Israelites (and Jesus) used?

In Exodus 16:1-7, we see the first Sabbath day recognized by Israel after their exodus from Egypt. This makes the 22[SUP]nd[/SUP] a Sabbath day. Nevertheless, it appears that the 17[SUP]th[/SUP] day of the first month was a Sabbath day according to Matthew 28:1. Even so, the 15[SUP]th[/SUP] day was a “high day,” in respect to Exodus chapter 16 previously mentioned. More than likely Matthew was written according to the Julian calendar, as was the book of John concerning the time of day.


I guess what I’m trying to say is that God set it up so He gives the “times and seasons” not humans according to our best capabilities.