Preterists - Put up or shutter up
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Greeting SovereignGrace,
The proof is that we are not appointed to suffer God's wrath in any capacity:
"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath. - 1 Thes.1:10
"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." - 1 Thes.5:9
"Because you have kept the word of My patient endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of the trial being about to come upon the whole inhabited world, to try those dwelling upon the earth. - Rev.3:10
The wrath of God is quickly coming upon this earth, which is what the scriptures above is speaking about, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues that the two witnesses bring upon the earth. These plagues of wrath will decimate the majority of the population of the earth and will dismantle all human government, as described in Dan.2:31-45.
The Lord does not punish the righteous with the wicked. And since the plagues of wrath will be the greatest destruction the world has ever seen, the Lord's promise of removing His church must and will take place prior to the on-set of His wrath.
Regarding the Lord's coming to gather the church, Paul in writing to Titus called this "the blessed hope."
Also, after giving a detailed account of the dead in Christ being resurrected and the living in Christ being changed, Paul then said to "encourage each other with these words."
That said, if the church was to go through God's wrath, with their gathering taking place after God's wrath, when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, we could hardly call His appearing a blessed hope nor comfort one another with that hope and that because the church would have gone through the same wrath as the wicked.
One of the major problems of not understand that believers cannot go through the wrath of God, is that many do not understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath and who it will be directed to.
If we the church, the believers in Christ, have already repented and received the Lord and are walking in faith, then it would also make no logical sense for the church to go through God's wrath, for there is nothing else that we can do. Yet, people are believing and teaching that God is still going to send us through His wrath anyway?
By my estimation based on the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, there will be less than 10% of the earths population left by the time the Lord returns to end the age.
According to John 14:1-3, the Lord said that he was going to the Father's house to prepare places for us and that he was going to come again and receive us so that where he is we may be also. The Father's house would be heaven and the Lord is coming back to get us and take us there.
This demonstrates that the event of the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age as being two separate events. In addition with Rev.19:14 with that army following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses, would also support the fact that the church will have already had to have been in heaven in order to follow the Lord out of heaven.
As I said, it is a matter of cross-referencing and comparing scripture that we arrive at our conclusion regarding our blessed hope.
I agree the ekklesia will not suffer God's wrath. The Christ bore that wrath in our stead. God kept His ppl safe as He was punishing Egypt, so that shows me He is able to keep His ppl safe even whilst pouring His wrath out on the wicked.
Plus, there is not one passage that explicitly states the rapture is pre-trib. Its just not there. It doesn't state in Matthew 25, John 5:28,29, 1 Cor. 15, or 1 Thess. 4 that the rapture of the church is pre-trib. These are inferences only, if one holds to a pre-trib rapture.
Plus, there is not one passage that explicitly states the rapture is pre-trib. Its just not there. It doesn't state in Matthew 25, John 5:28,29, 1 Cor. 15, or 1 Thess. 4 that the rapture of the church is pre-trib. These are inferences only, if one holds to a pre-trib rapture.
Yes! How is THAT possible?? 
The temple was destroyed some 37 years after Jesus quoted Daniel regarding the setting up of the abomination and there has been no fulfillment of the revealing of the antichrist and the setting up of the abomination in the holy place within the temple. Therefore, since God cannot lie and all scripture must be fulfilled, then it is yet a future even, complete with a future temple and the commencement of sacrifices.
The seventy seven year decree upon Israel and Jerusalem found in Dan.9:24-27, is divided up into three sections:
1). Seven sets of seven years to restore and rebuild Jerusalem
2). Sixty-two seven year periods, where at the end of which the Messiah would be cut off/crucified
3). He "the ruler" will establish an agreement for one seven year period with Israel
Seven 'sevens':
Seven, seven year periods was fulfilled when Nehemiah received the decree, which were letters for safe passage through the area of the Trans-Euphrates, as well as letters to cut down wood from the kings forest for the purpose of rebuilding and restoring Jerusalem. (Read Nehemiah)
Sixty-two 'sevens':
Tacking on sixty two seven year periods following the 7 seven year periods, brings us to the Messiah being crucified. From that time to the present.
One seven:
we have had no fulfillment of the last seven years of the decree, which means that it is still a future event and will take place in conjunction with the wrath of God leading up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.
I believe almost all of Revelation is describing the beginning of the church to the Christians in the first Century... reassuring them that what they had chosen to follow was real.
I believe those great tribulations spoken of, occurred to and around those same people..... many of them being killed in those times.
And I believe there is no such thing as this surprise rapture so many people wish for..... where the pilot of our airplane will suddenly vanish, or a fellow worker will disappear all of a sudden.
I believe those great tribulations spoken of, occurred to and around those same people..... many of them being killed in those times.
And I believe there is no such thing as this surprise rapture so many people wish for..... where the pilot of our airplane will suddenly vanish, or a fellow worker will disappear all of a sudden.
No! This is what I meant when I said that people don't understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. For if they did, they would not be claiming that God is going keep his people save in the midst of his unprecedented wrath vs. removing them from the earth because of their severity.
Based on the severity of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, God would have to literally put force fields around every believer on the planet.
You need to go and read and study the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments to understand what I'm saying. And if you have problems with it, I would be more than happy to go over the deeper meaning behind those plagues of wrath.
There is no way that God is going to keep his church on earth to go through that, but will instead remove the church prior to the on-set of his wrath.
Just with the 4th seal alone and based on the current population of over 7 billion, there will be 1.7 billion fatalities. Combine that with the 6th trumpet where a third of the earths population is killed and you have over half of the earths population dead within the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. And that is not including the fatalities that will result from Trumpets 1,2 and 3 nor the fatalities resulting from the seven bowl judgments.
Are you beginning to get the picture here? The Church cannot be on the earth during the time of God's wrath.
Based on the severity of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, God would have to literally put force fields around every believer on the planet.
You need to go and read and study the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments to understand what I'm saying. And if you have problems with it, I would be more than happy to go over the deeper meaning behind those plagues of wrath.
There is no way that God is going to keep his church on earth to go through that, but will instead remove the church prior to the on-set of his wrath.
Just with the 4th seal alone and based on the current population of over 7 billion, there will be 1.7 billion fatalities. Combine that with the 6th trumpet where a third of the earths population is killed and you have over half of the earths population dead within the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period. And that is not including the fatalities that will result from Trumpets 1,2 and 3 nor the fatalities resulting from the seven bowl judgments.
Are you beginning to get the picture here? The Church cannot be on the earth during the time of God's wrath.
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I'll say it again, Ahwatukee, you should write a book. But not just laying it out. You should also include all of the arguments and how they cannot fit with scripture.
You have been at this a long time. You know all of the arguments and WHY they are untenable.
It's not that we're stupid. It's that it is impossible to hold all scripture in your mind at once. But you can hold it there all at once (the scriptures pertaining to the end), so you should write a book for us.
You have been at this a long time. You know all of the arguments and WHY they are untenable.
It's not that we're stupid. It's that it is impossible to hold all scripture in your mind at once. But you can hold it there all at once (the scriptures pertaining to the end), so you should write a book for us.
The veil is rent .....signaling the beginning of the last days leading to the day of the Lord, the last day.
Christ who is not a man as us fulfilled the promise to come once in the flesh for a one time demonstration of His spiritual work of pouring out His Spirit, unseen, on flesh, seen... as the kind of flesh the Son of man said of his own .. it cannot profit. (impossible) .
The time of reformation as the time of Jacobs’s trouble (no more flesh used as a shadow of the one Spiritual Seed (Christ). He has come the daily sacrifice used as a sign has ceased. The shadows of the ceremonial laws served their one time purpose to point ahead as a sign of the suffering of Christ beforehand .Those who are looking to mend the veil by building another temple as if Christ did not come in the flesh the first time it would seem ...set up the abomination spoken of in Dan. Why rebuild that which God says profits for nothing ?
We will be found with a imputed righteousness. It is the work of the unseen Spirit working in us to both will and do His good pleasure that gives spirit life. His words are Spirit and spirit life giving. the literal stones of literal temples profits for nothing.
6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.Joh 6:67-68
Christ who is not a man as us fulfilled the promise to come once in the flesh for a one time demonstration of His spiritual work of pouring out His Spirit, unseen, on flesh, seen... as the kind of flesh the Son of man said of his own .. it cannot profit. (impossible) .
The time of reformation as the time of Jacobs’s trouble (no more flesh used as a shadow of the one Spiritual Seed (Christ). He has come the daily sacrifice used as a sign has ceased. The shadows of the ceremonial laws served their one time purpose to point ahead as a sign of the suffering of Christ beforehand .Those who are looking to mend the veil by building another temple as if Christ did not come in the flesh the first time it would seem ...set up the abomination spoken of in Dan. Why rebuild that which God says profits for nothing ?
We will be found with a imputed righteousness. It is the work of the unseen Spirit working in us to both will and do His good pleasure that gives spirit life. His words are Spirit and spirit life giving. the literal stones of literal temples profits for nothing.
6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.Joh 6:67-68
Not removed until the end of the three and one half years that the beast makes war against the saints,but the saints are going to suffer,and get their butts whipped something fierce,and at that time there is only the world that followed the beast,and the saints,and no in between,for all who love not God will be given strong delusion to follow the beast kingdom.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
Jesus is not keeping the faithful from persecution.
Jesus is keeping the faithful from the temptation that shall try the whole world,and that is when the Gentile nations come together,and say,Peace and safety,then the world is at a deciding point,to follow God,or follow the world,which happens at the beginning of the 7 years period,but the faithful saints are not kept from getting persecuted.
It is a temptation that Jesus is keeping them from that shall come upon all the dwell on earth,which the faithful will know that what the world is doing is not the operation of God,but will result in the world rebelling against God.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
The saints are not to fight back,for however they fight back it will come back on them,that is the patience and faith of the saints,for they are going to have to endure it the same way Jesus endured it.
Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
Dan 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
The beast shall destroy the mighty and holy people.
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
The beast is going to destroy the mighty and holy people,for they are not kept from harm.
Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
Jesus is not keeping the faithful from persecution.
Jesus is keeping the faithful from the temptation that shall try the whole world,and that is when the Gentile nations come together,and say,Peace and safety,then the world is at a deciding point,to follow God,or follow the world,which happens at the beginning of the 7 years period,but the faithful saints are not kept from getting persecuted.
It is a temptation that Jesus is keeping them from that shall come upon all the dwell on earth,which the faithful will know that what the world is doing is not the operation of God,but will result in the world rebelling against God.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
The saints are not to fight back,for however they fight back it will come back on them,that is the patience and faith of the saints,for they are going to have to endure it the same way Jesus endured it.
Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
Dan 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
The beast shall destroy the mighty and holy people.
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
The beast is going to destroy the mighty and holy people,for they are not kept from harm.
Did somebody mention us seven seals??
There were no "bound books" in John's day. Only scrolls.
So, not a single word of what "the book" said could have been known by just removing a seal or two. All seven seals would have to have been removed to hear one word of what the scroll of Revelation said.
The seals are NOT things that are inside "the book", but rather, warnings, prior to the book finally being read.
I just came to that realization, and thought it might be interesting to someone. Or, maybe not.
This pre-trib rapture doctrine was not taught until circa 1830's. There was a guy, can't remember his name, who taught it in the 9th century, iirc, but was not taken seriously as a doctrine. So, the historical church has been predominantly historical-Premillenialism, with some amill after Augustine taught it in the 4th century, and then Darby and the Plymouth Brethern take the dream of a teenage girl and we now have pre-millennial dispensationialism. Gee, thanks Darby and Scofield.
For this doctrine to not have been taught for the first 1,800+ years and now have worldwide fame is scary. Uber scary.
For this doctrine to not have been taught for the first 1,800+ years and now have worldwide fame is scary. Uber scary.