Preterists - Put up or shutter up
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I don't know...it says in the last days knowledge will increase...an argument could be made. 
The problem with the late "rapture" theory is that is fails to take note of the full context of the "occasional" nature of the letters to the Thessalonians.
2 Th 1:4 therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.
2 Th 1:5 This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.
2 Th 1:6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
2 Th 1:7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
Note that in the above Paul is promising relief and repayment to those that are afflicting THEM, and it was the Jews and their "henchman" that were doing the affliction. See his comments from his first letter to the Thessalonians:
1 Th 2:14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews,
2 Th 1:8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.2 Th 1:4 therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.
2 Th 1:5 This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.
2 Th 1:6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
2 Th 1:7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
Note that in the above Paul is promising relief and repayment to those that are afflicting THEM, and it was the Jews and their "henchman" that were doing the affliction. See his comments from his first letter to the Thessalonians:
1 Th 2:14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews,
2 Th 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2 Th 1:10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—for our testimony to you was believed.
Paul is promising the Thessalonians relief from persecution at the coming of the Lord in their lifetime (not hundreds of years into their future) when the persecutors/afflictors would be "punished with eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord."
The only nation on earth at that was said to dwell in "the presence of the Lord" was Judah/Israel.
This is the same coming/presence as in 1 Th 4:15-17.
If this relief did not come in the lifetime of the Thessalonians as Paul promised we would have to conclude that he was mistaken, or worse a false prophet.
He was neither.
The meeting in the air (figurative) was a spiritual event at the coming of the Lord not for the removal of the church but to dwell with it "so shall we ever be with the Lord":
There is no taking the church out of the world, but there is deliverance:
John 17:15 “I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.
In Acts 1:11 we can read, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.” So, we can know that His second coming is in the cloud. Then there is 1 Thess 4 "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God."[vs 16a] Then there is 1 Cor. 15 where it speaks of our resurrection, but does not mention the timing of Jesus' second coming. Then in John 5 Jesus stated Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.[vss 28,29] It appears that the voice of the archangel is akin to 'all who in the tombs'. When the Christ comes and proclaims with a loud voice 'come forth', all will come forth in a general resurrection. Then in Revelation 20, Satan was loosed prior to the GWT judgment.
So, the more I am studying this, the more I am thinking of going back to amill. It seems to keep the flow of scripture consistent with each other.
So, the more I am studying this, the more I am thinking of going back to amill. It seems to keep the flow of scripture consistent with each other.
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It's definitely better than the dispensational position..
But before you jump ship consider the following from Young's Literal in regards to "and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment":
Acts 24:15 having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous.
If something is "about to be" it is not hundreds of years after Paul said that.
But before you jump ship consider the following from Young's Literal in regards to "and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment":
Acts 24:15 having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous.
If something is "about to be" it is not hundreds of years after Paul said that.
@WT
A) Respect is earned WT. I certainly respect the right of people to hold this viewpoint, and I respect Locutus and PW enough that I want to hear they believe, as I had previously, long ago, completely dismissed this doctrine, and I want to double check that I have not missed something. I genuinely think it is a crackers doctrine, so when I see intelligent people like Locutus and PW espousing it, I want to double check, that I haven't got the wrong end of the stick.
B) This is a logical fallacy, but never mind.
C) I am neither judging people nor making a stand. I used a shop front metaphor, but it is just a metaphor. Showcase your doctrine, make it work for us, or pull the shutters down. It is just a metaphor. In a court of Law, the verdict comes after the evidence, but you have delivered a scathing and frankly dishonest verdict on me without even allowing the evidence, and like a true kangaroo court, the rubber stampers have all signed up at the bottom. Would be sad, were it not so bad.
B) This is a logical fallacy, but never mind.
C) I am neither judging people nor making a stand. I used a shop front metaphor, but it is just a metaphor. Showcase your doctrine, make it work for us, or pull the shutters down. It is just a metaphor. In a court of Law, the verdict comes after the evidence, but you have delivered a scathing and frankly dishonest verdict on me without even allowing the evidence, and like a true kangaroo court, the rubber stampers have all signed up at the bottom. Would be sad, were it not so bad.
Well, let's take a gander at Revelation 20...
John sees an angel coming down from heaven with a key and a chain and lays hold of a dragon and binds him for 1,000 years. Now, the literalists have themselves quite a conundrum. Satan is not a dragon, and he was also referred to as a red dragon in Revelation 12. So, if the Satan is not a literal dragon, then we have an allegorical picture here. The key the angel has is not a literal key, but meaning he has authority. Just like Jesus said in Revelation 1 He has the keys to death and hell. He has authority over those things.
So, we have a key that is not a key, but is symbolic of authority, which means this is to be taken figuratively. Satan is bound, but he's not a literal dragon, so then this is also to be taken figuratively as well. But when we get to the 1,000 years, well, that means 1,000 literal years. Huh? That makes as much sense as a football bat.
John sees an angel coming down from heaven with a key and a chain and lays hold of a dragon and binds him for 1,000 years. Now, the literalists have themselves quite a conundrum. Satan is not a dragon, and he was also referred to as a red dragon in Revelation 12. So, if the Satan is not a literal dragon, then we have an allegorical picture here. The key the angel has is not a literal key, but meaning he has authority. Just like Jesus said in Revelation 1 He has the keys to death and hell. He has authority over those things.
So, we have a key that is not a key, but is symbolic of authority, which means this is to be taken figuratively. Satan is bound, but he's not a literal dragon, so then this is also to be taken figuratively as well. But when we get to the 1,000 years, well, that means 1,000 literal years. Huh? That makes as much sense as a football bat.
For you and Angela
Acts 1 9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
The Greek for cloud is nephele. The passage in Hebrews 12 where Paul refers to a cloud of witnesses uses the word nephos, and this is the only occurrence of the word in the NT.
If you start spiritualizing the cloud, then you need to do the same with the rainbow, etc etc.
Revelation 10:1
And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Acts 1 9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
The Greek for cloud is nephele. The passage in Hebrews 12 where Paul refers to a cloud of witnesses uses the word nephos, and this is the only occurrence of the word in the NT.
If you start spiritualizing the cloud, then you need to do the same with the rainbow, etc etc.
Revelation 10:1
And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
The bottom line for me, and I speak with knowledge WT, contrary to your vicious little character assassination, is that the Church awaits Christ's Second Coming, and has done for 2000 years.
Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Christ's return is our blessed hope. Since many here class themselves as 'pre-trib' or 'post-trib', I know I am not the only person expecting and hoping for Christ's return. Therefore your denunciation of me as the perfect example of one who speaks and judges with no knowledge must be seen for what it is, slander of a Christian. Whether a Brother or not I do not know, because I cannot speak for you. Personally I would retract that statement and issue an apology. I have some knowledge....or am I wrong? Is the whole Church now happy that Christ has returned and am I Peter O'Toole, a lone Murphy alone in my belief bubble?
Preterism, partial and full, believes that Christ returned in AD 70 and that was his second and final coming. That is what I have just read.
Titus 2:13
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
Christ's return is our blessed hope. Since many here class themselves as 'pre-trib' or 'post-trib', I know I am not the only person expecting and hoping for Christ's return. Therefore your denunciation of me as the perfect example of one who speaks and judges with no knowledge must be seen for what it is, slander of a Christian. Whether a Brother or not I do not know, because I cannot speak for you. Personally I would retract that statement and issue an apology. I have some knowledge....or am I wrong? Is the whole Church now happy that Christ has returned and am I Peter O'Toole, a lone Murphy alone in my belief bubble?
Preterism, partial and full, believes that Christ returned in AD 70 and that was his second and final coming. That is what I have just read.
The fact is that all the apostles had heard the Olivet Discourse and shared the fact that the temple would be utterly destroyed. The manner in which Luke described the destruction of Jerusalem indicates that it is something which would come to pass shortly. All this was probably shared with Paul, since Paul even quotes from the Gospel of Luke. Then Paul himself was given the revelation of the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition, called the Beast by the apostle John. In order to fulfil Paul's prophecy in 2 Thessalonians, it would be imperative that an actual temple be in existence in Jerusalem when the Antichrist appeared and took control of the whole world.
But we can easily debunk the notion that Antiochus Epiphanes was the Antichrist. He may have been a poor imitation, but the Antichrist has yet to come. Below is evidence that Antiochus prefigured the Antichrist is some ways.
Preterists claim that Antiochus Epiphanes (Epiphanes = God manifest) was the Antichrist, but even though his coins indicate that he considered himself “God manifest” he did not actually sit in the temple of God in Jerusalem “as God” and proclaim that he is God. The books of the Maccabees are historical accounts which include the evils which Antiochus did to the Jews. But the record does not show that he fulfilled the prophecy given in 2 Thessalonians 2:3,4: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2 Maccabees 5:11-6:8
[11] When news of what had happened reached the king [Antiochus], he took it to mean that Judea was in revolt. So, raging inwardly, he left Egypt and took the city by storm.
[12] And he commanded his soldiers to cut down relentlessly every one they met and to slay those who went into the houses.
[13] Then there was killing of young and old, destruction of boys, women, and children, and slaughter of virgins and infants.
[14] Within the total of three days eighty thousand were destroyed, forty thousand in hand-to-hand fighting; and as many were sold into slavery as were slain.
[15] Not content with this, Antiochus dared to enter the most holy temple in all the world, guided by Menelaus, who had become a traitor both to the laws and to his country.
[16] He took the holy vessels with his polluted hands, and swept away with profane hands the votive offerings which other kings had made to enhance the glory and honor of the place.
[17] Antiochus was elated in spirit, and did not perceive that the Lord was angered for a little while because of the sins of those who dwelt in the city, and that therefore he was disregarding the holy place.
[18] But if it had not happened that they were involved in many sins, this man would have been scourged and turned back from his rash act as soon as he came forward, just as Heliodorus was, whom Seleucus the king sent to inspect the treasury.
[19] But the Lord did not choose the nation for the sake of the holy place, but the place for the sake of the nation.
[20] Therefore the place itself shared in the misfortunes that befell the nation and afterward participated in its benefits; and what was forsaken in the wrath of the Almighty was restored again in all its glory when the great Lord became reconciled.
[21] So Antiochus carried off eighteen hundred talents from the temple, and hurried away to Antioch, thinking in his arrogance that he could sail on the land and walk on the sea, because his mind was elated.
[22] And he left governors to afflict the people: at Jerusalem, Philip, by birth a Phrygian and in character more barbarous than the man who appointed him;
[23] and at Gerizim, Andronicus; and besides these Menelaus, who lorded it over his fellow citizens worse than the others did. In his malice toward the Jewish citizens,
[24] Antiochus sent Apollonius, the captain of the Mysians, with an army of twenty-two thousand, and commanded him to slay all the grown men and to sell the women and boys as slaves.
[25] When this man arrived in Jerusalem, he pretended to be peaceably disposed and waited until the holy sabbath day; then, finding the Jews not at work, he ordered his men to parade under arms.
[26] He put to the sword all those who came out to see them, then rushed into the city with his armed men and killed great numbers of people.
[27] But Judas Maccabeus, with about nine others, got away to the wilderness, and kept himself and his companions alive in the mountains as wild animals do; they continued to live on what grew wild, so that they might not share in the defilement.
[1] Not long after this, the king sent an Athenian senator to compel the Jews to forsake the laws of their fathers and cease to live by the laws of God,
[2] and also to pollute the temple in Jerusalem and call it the temple of Olympian Zeus, and to call the one in Gerizim the temple of Zeus the Friend of Strangers, as did the people who dwelt in that place.
[3] Harsh and utterly grievous was the onslaught of evil.
[4] For the temple was filled with debauchery and reveling by the Gentiles, who dallied with harlots and had intercourse with women within the sacred precincts, and besides brought in things for sacrifice that were unfit.
[5] The altar was covered with abominable offerings which were forbidden by the laws.
[6] A man could neither keep the sabbath, nor observe the feasts of his fathers, nor so much as confess himself to be a Jew.
[7] On the monthly celebration of the king's birthday, the Jews were taken, under bitter constraint, to partake of the sacrifices; and when the feast of Dionysus came, they were compelled to walk in the procession in honor of Dionysus, wearing wreaths of ivy.
[8] At the suggestion of Ptolemy a decree was issued to the neighboring Greek cities, that they should adopt the same policy toward the Jews and make them partake of the sacrifices...
Preterists also claim that Antiochus set up the Abomination of Desolation (an abominable idol) in the temple, thus fulfilled the prophecy of Daniel as mentioned by Christ in Matthew 24:15: When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand...
However, according to the Lord Jesus Christ, this sacrilege would trigger two things: (1) the Great Tribulation (a unique event which has never occurred before nor ever will again), and (2) the cataclysmic cosmic events of the 6[SUP]th[/SUP] seal in Revelation before the second coming of Christ.
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be (Matthew 24:21).
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken (Matthew 24:29).
If indeed Antiochus had been the Antichrist, all this would have happened between 70 AD and 100 AD, and probably no later than 74 AD. Which means that this earth would have been totally devastated, and we would now be actually beyond the second coming of Christ and the Millennium, and living in the New Heavens and the New Earth! So Preterists have made up their own fantasy about all of this, and changed the meaning of Scripture to fit their fantasy.
But we can easily debunk the notion that Antiochus Epiphanes was the Antichrist. He may have been a poor imitation, but the Antichrist has yet to come. Below is evidence that Antiochus prefigured the Antichrist is some ways.
Preterists claim that Antiochus Epiphanes (Epiphanes = God manifest) was the Antichrist, but even though his coins indicate that he considered himself “God manifest” he did not actually sit in the temple of God in Jerusalem “as God” and proclaim that he is God. The books of the Maccabees are historical accounts which include the evils which Antiochus did to the Jews. But the record does not show that he fulfilled the prophecy given in 2 Thessalonians 2:3,4: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2 Maccabees 5:11-6:8
[11] When news of what had happened reached the king [Antiochus], he took it to mean that Judea was in revolt. So, raging inwardly, he left Egypt and took the city by storm.
[12] And he commanded his soldiers to cut down relentlessly every one they met and to slay those who went into the houses.
[13] Then there was killing of young and old, destruction of boys, women, and children, and slaughter of virgins and infants.
[14] Within the total of three days eighty thousand were destroyed, forty thousand in hand-to-hand fighting; and as many were sold into slavery as were slain.
[15] Not content with this, Antiochus dared to enter the most holy temple in all the world, guided by Menelaus, who had become a traitor both to the laws and to his country.
[16] He took the holy vessels with his polluted hands, and swept away with profane hands the votive offerings which other kings had made to enhance the glory and honor of the place.
[17] Antiochus was elated in spirit, and did not perceive that the Lord was angered for a little while because of the sins of those who dwelt in the city, and that therefore he was disregarding the holy place.
[18] But if it had not happened that they were involved in many sins, this man would have been scourged and turned back from his rash act as soon as he came forward, just as Heliodorus was, whom Seleucus the king sent to inspect the treasury.
[19] But the Lord did not choose the nation for the sake of the holy place, but the place for the sake of the nation.
[20] Therefore the place itself shared in the misfortunes that befell the nation and afterward participated in its benefits; and what was forsaken in the wrath of the Almighty was restored again in all its glory when the great Lord became reconciled.
[21] So Antiochus carried off eighteen hundred talents from the temple, and hurried away to Antioch, thinking in his arrogance that he could sail on the land and walk on the sea, because his mind was elated.
[22] And he left governors to afflict the people: at Jerusalem, Philip, by birth a Phrygian and in character more barbarous than the man who appointed him;
[23] and at Gerizim, Andronicus; and besides these Menelaus, who lorded it over his fellow citizens worse than the others did. In his malice toward the Jewish citizens,
[24] Antiochus sent Apollonius, the captain of the Mysians, with an army of twenty-two thousand, and commanded him to slay all the grown men and to sell the women and boys as slaves.
[25] When this man arrived in Jerusalem, he pretended to be peaceably disposed and waited until the holy sabbath day; then, finding the Jews not at work, he ordered his men to parade under arms.
[26] He put to the sword all those who came out to see them, then rushed into the city with his armed men and killed great numbers of people.
[27] But Judas Maccabeus, with about nine others, got away to the wilderness, and kept himself and his companions alive in the mountains as wild animals do; they continued to live on what grew wild, so that they might not share in the defilement.
[1] Not long after this, the king sent an Athenian senator to compel the Jews to forsake the laws of their fathers and cease to live by the laws of God,
[2] and also to pollute the temple in Jerusalem and call it the temple of Olympian Zeus, and to call the one in Gerizim the temple of Zeus the Friend of Strangers, as did the people who dwelt in that place.
[3] Harsh and utterly grievous was the onslaught of evil.
[4] For the temple was filled with debauchery and reveling by the Gentiles, who dallied with harlots and had intercourse with women within the sacred precincts, and besides brought in things for sacrifice that were unfit.
[5] The altar was covered with abominable offerings which were forbidden by the laws.
[6] A man could neither keep the sabbath, nor observe the feasts of his fathers, nor so much as confess himself to be a Jew.
[7] On the monthly celebration of the king's birthday, the Jews were taken, under bitter constraint, to partake of the sacrifices; and when the feast of Dionysus came, they were compelled to walk in the procession in honor of Dionysus, wearing wreaths of ivy.
[8] At the suggestion of Ptolemy a decree was issued to the neighboring Greek cities, that they should adopt the same policy toward the Jews and make them partake of the sacrifices...
Preterists also claim that Antiochus set up the Abomination of Desolation (an abominable idol) in the temple, thus fulfilled the prophecy of Daniel as mentioned by Christ in Matthew 24:15: When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand...
However, according to the Lord Jesus Christ, this sacrilege would trigger two things: (1) the Great Tribulation (a unique event which has never occurred before nor ever will again), and (2) the cataclysmic cosmic events of the 6[SUP]th[/SUP] seal in Revelation before the second coming of Christ.
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be (Matthew 24:21).
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken (Matthew 24:29).
If indeed Antiochus had been the Antichrist, all this would have happened between 70 AD and 100 AD, and probably no later than 74 AD. Which means that this earth would have been totally devastated, and we would now be actually beyond the second coming of Christ and the Millennium, and living in the New Heavens and the New Earth! So Preterists have made up their own fantasy about all of this, and changed the meaning of Scripture to fit their fantasy.
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They will come to God in the same way that they did prior to the indwelling of the Spirit. How did the disciples come to Christ? They did not receive the Spirit until Pentecost, which was after Christ had ascended.
There will indeed be those who become saints after the church has been removed and during the time of God's wrath and during the beasts reign. This is who the elder is introducing in Rev.7:9-17.
Not at all. From Abel to Pentecost, there were OT saints throughout. Study Hebrews 11. They are called "the spirits of just men made perfect" in Heb 12:23. They were perfected after the resurrection of Christ, whereas the NT saints receive the gift of the Holy Spirit upon conversion. So there can also be Tribulation saints just like them after the Church is in Heaven. And, as we all know, with God nothing is impossible.
Wait a minute. You're saying that the Disciples did not have the indwelling of the Spirit whilst walking with the Christ? Whoa! I have read this many times, and its as untenable now as it was then.
Jesus asked His Disciples “Who do people say the son of Man is?”[Matthew 16:13] This is what Peter said after Christ asked them “But who do you say that I am?” “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” He then told Him it was God who had revealed this to him and not His flesh and blood.
We know that men in the flesh(unregenerate in proper context) can not please God.[Romans 8:8] So, those who are devoid of the Spirit are unregenerate. Then are none saved without the indwelling of the Spirit, OT or NT economy.
This is just dispensationialism error being taught. Those in the OT were saved folk, too. None are saved and not unregenerated.
Jesus asked His Disciples “Who do people say the son of Man is?”[Matthew 16:13] This is what Peter said after Christ asked them “But who do you say that I am?” “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” He then told Him it was God who had revealed this to him and not His flesh and blood.
We know that men in the flesh(unregenerate in proper context) can not please God.[Romans 8:8] So, those who are devoid of the Spirit are unregenerate. Then are none saved without the indwelling of the Spirit, OT or NT economy.
This is just dispensationialism error being taught. Those in the OT were saved folk, too. None are saved and not unregenerated.