Preterists - Put up or shutter up

[SovereignGrace]

You do error in your conclusion. In Rev.9 we are told that a star, which is symbolic representing and angel, is given the key to the Abyss, which is required to unlock it. Then here in Rev.20:1 we have another angel that also has the key to the Abyss, which is required to lock it back up.

"Then the fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the pit of the abyss. The star opened the pit of the abyss, and smoke rose out of it like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke from the pit."

"Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the Abyss, holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, the ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. And he threw him into the Abyss, shut it, and sealed it over him, so that he could not deceive the nations until the thousand years were complete."

So according to both scriptures, a key (whether tangible or spiritual) is required to open and lock the Abyss. Therefore, your assumption that the key is not literal, but only symbolic is false and therefore the rest of your assumption that is based on that is false.

The fact is that, the words "a thousand years" is repeated six times. We are told right in the scripture that Christ will rule during that thousand years and it is this same thousand years that Satan will be locked up in the Abyss. You're always talking about something not being stated directly in the scripture, well right in the scripture it tells you that this time period is a thousand years in duration and you're still not believing it, even thought that is exactly what is written.

Also, if you don't think that clouds can be present in both the gathering of the church and the in the Lord's return, you're not going to get very far with interpreting scripture related to end-time events. You already seem to be following after the false teachings of preterism.

We're just gonna hafta disagree.

 

[Willie-T]

We're just gonna hafta disagree.

It's OK. We are mostly used to Literalists who also think people swallow camels and have tree trunks stuck in their eyes.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Yes I read what you write. I have Denadii on ignore, so I was responding to his post through your post, seeing that you had it quoted for me to see. He said this "So you might as well line up with the Word and trash your opinions. Right?" I was giving the word of God and not my opinion in all of my postings. Denadii is just some internet tough guy who loves drinking his strawberry Nestle Quik in his momma's basement.

OH!!!! You have sunk to "yo' momma jokes."
And get real - nobody drinks strawberry Nestle Quick just like nobody eats brown M&M's.

 

[Denadii]

Denadii,

If you're responding to one of my posts, you're wasting your time. I have you on ignore.

No. That post was to all...I don't know why you think I would want to talk to you anyway. I thought I was blessed that you had me on ignore but you're not even doing that honestly. See? That's a plastic Christian for you. If you had me on ignore you wouldn't have seen that message. Plastic Christians lie a lot. All you want to do is fight, but there is no truth in you so why bother?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

You do error in your conclusion. In Rev.9 we are told that a star, which is symbolic representing and angel, is given the key to the Abyss, which is required to unlock it. Then here in Rev.20:1 we have another angel that also has the key to the Abyss, which is required to lock it back up.

"Then the fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the pit of the abyss. The star opened the pit of the abyss, and smoke rose out of it like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke from the pit."

"Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the Abyss, holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, the ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. And he threw him into the Abyss, shut it, and sealed it over him, so that he could not deceive the nations until the thousand years were complete."

So according to both scriptures, a key (whether tangible or spiritual) is required to open and lock the Abyss. Therefore, your assumption that the key is not literal, but only symbolic is false and therefore the rest of your assumption that is based on that is false.

The fact is that, the words "a thousand years" is repeated six times. We are told right in the scripture that Christ will rule during that thousand years and it is this same thousand years that Satan will be locked up in the Abyss. You're always talking about something not being stated directly in the scripture, well right in the scripture it tells you that this time period is a thousand years in duration and you're still not believing it, even thought that is exactly what is written.

Also, if you don't think that clouds can be present in both the gathering of the church and the in the Lord's return, you're not going to get very far with interpreting scripture related to end-time events. You already seem to be following after the false teachings of preterism.

I find it telling that angels are mentioned and then in THIS ONE CASE, it doesn't say angel, but instead says: a star that had FALLEN FROM THE SKY.

When you take into account scriptures that mention his falling in OT and NT (I saw satan fall like lightning from heaven, for example), you see that you are being given a clue.

I see many clues like this but have not yet understood what they meant. For instance, where John keeps repeating: I looked up and saw. In one place it doesn't say: I looked up. It just says: and then appeared...

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

I am just tired of the tendency to entropy of the site. I've seen it before. It is ugly. Too many snakes in the grass, too many personal vendettas. There are a few people on the site I like, as they discuss things like Christians, and adults.

Trofimus
Bogadile
TMS
KJV
Tanakh
FollowJesus
StunnedByGrace

and a few others who don't post so regularly

Then there is a species of bottom feeder which seems to feast on trying to degrade the site and denigrate others.

And in between you have a bunch of people who just lack judgement and Christian charity.

Probably best not to mention names, but I am chuckling at the lady who claims to represent the forces of light.

Honestly, for a moment there, (because I don't know you or SG), I THOUGHT I was still talking to you and I wondered why you had seemed to change from wanting to discuss to not hearing what anyone was saying. So I'm laughing at myself. And am relieved I wasn't talking to you!

If someone is so stuck on their doctrine that they literally cannot hear or consider what you are saying or how you are looking at it, it shows you what a huge deal doctrine can sometimes be. I'm not talking about them needing to agree with you - I'm talking about that odd occurrence where they quite literally do not hear what you are saying.

 

[Stephen63]

A rule of thumb in interpreting scripture is everything is to be interpreted as literal unless it can't.

A "thousand years" is pretty plain, if you ask me. It's said multiple times, it's locked in as the only word used, & the Greek locks it in by having only one definition.

There's no need to see it as symbolic, as there's NOTHING symbolic in the context around it.

Nothing points to symbolism at all, therefore it isn't.

 

[Willie-T]

I am just tired of the tendency to entropy of the site. I've seen it before. It is ugly. Too many snakes in the grass, too many personal vendettas. There are a few people on the site I like, as they discuss things like Christians, and adults.

Trofimus
Bogadile
TMS
KJV
Tanakh
FollowJesus
StunnedByGrace

and a few others who don't post so regularly

Then there is a species of bottom feeder which seems to feast on trying to degrade the site and denigrate others.

And in between you have a bunch of people who just lack judgement and Christian charity.

Probably best not to mention names, but I am chuckling at the lady who claims to represent the forces of light.

You couldn't remember when or where I supposedly "assassinated your character" or was it that there was nothing for you to quote?

 

[heartofdavid]

I am just tired of the tendency to entropy of the site. I've seen it before. It is ugly. Too many snakes in the grass, too many personal vendettas. There are a few people on the site I like, as they discuss things like Christians, and adults.

Trofimus
Bogadile
TMS
KJV
Tanakh
FollowJesus
StunnedByGrace

and a few others who don't post so regularly

Then there is a species of bottom feeder which seems to feast on trying to degrade the site and denigrate others.

And in between you have a bunch of people who just lack judgement and Christian charity.

Probably best not to mention names, but I am chuckling at the lady who claims to represent the forces of light.

Dude,take a break from this site.

Go into worship or prayer,get refreshed,and learn to post your case without getting bound up emotionally.

Preach to yourself that your bros and sises are not your enemy.

 

[SovereignGrace]

No. That post was to all...I don't know why you think I would want to talk to you anyway. I thought I was blessed that you had me on ignore but you're not even doing that honestly. See? That's a plastic Christian for you. If you had me on ignore you wouldn't have seen that message. Plastic Christians lie a lot. All you want to do is fight, but there is no truth in you so why bother?

I know he's banned now, but what was up with him? I was curious and viewed his post, but still had him on ignore. And then he called me a 'plastic christian' and a liar. Wowzers...

 

[SovereignGrace]

It's OK. We are mostly used to Literalists who also think people swallow camels and have tree trunks stuck in their eyes.

And walk around with a hand and eye missing.

 

[Stephen63]

A thousand years is a thousand years..... deal with it.

 

[Angela53510]

A thousand years is a thousand years..... deal with it.

And yet, it is strange that word appears only in one chapter of the Bible! Rev.20. And yet, there it is!

I would say, that appearing multiple times in the same chapter really counts for one time. If you are going to make a doctrine as huge as "the Millennium" seems to be, don't you think, like all good doctrine, it should appear more than once in the entire Bible? I mean, it could have appeared many times throughout Revelation, and the OT and the NT, like the cross, for example, but instead, it is found just once.

No one questions the doctrine of the cross, because it is found in so many places, even prophesied in the OT. But millennium? Just not there! Except for Rev. 20, of course! I do acknowledge that, for sure!

For that reason, I do take it as figurative. Like a lot of Revelation, which simply cannot be interpreted literally. For that matter, Jesus spoke in parables, which are a type of metaphor. Are those to be taken literally? Just speaking metaphorically, here!

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

And yet, it is strange that word appears only in one chapter of the Bible! Rev.20. And yet, there it is!

I would say, that appearing multiple times in the same chapter really counts for one time. If you are going to make a doctrine as huge as "the Millennium" seems to be, don't you think, like all good doctrine, it should appear more than once in the entire Bible? I mean, it could have appeared many times throughout Revelation, and the OT and the NT, like the cross, for example, but instead, it is found just once.

No one questions the doctrine of the cross, because it is found in so many places, even prophesied in the OT. But millennium? Just not there! Except for Rev. 20, of course! I do acknowledge that, for sure!

For that reason, I do take it as figurative. Like a lot of Revelation, which simply cannot be interpreted literally. For that matter, Jesus spoke in parables, which are a type of metaphor. Are those to be taken literally? Just speaking metaphorically, here!

Hi angela! I haven't run across you in a long time! Figured you were studying.

So in your opinion, what does the thousand years spoken of mean, figuratively?

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Had another question I forgot!

Do you see any places in the prophets where this figurative millennium is spoken of? I guess what I'm asking is, can you tie in anything from the prophets regarding it also? (It's okay if you can't - I was just curious.)

 

[Willie-T]

Hi angela! I haven't run across you in a long time! Figured you were studying.

So in your opinion, what does the thousand years spoken of mean, figuratively?

What does an expression such as ten thousands of thousands mean? Is that to be calculated as meaning a precise number?

Or, "as many as the sands on a beach or in the desert?" Are we to start counting grains of sand?

 

[Ahwatukee]

What does an expression such as ten thousands of thousands mean? Is that to be calculated as meaning a precise number?

Or, "as many as the sands on a beach or in the desert?" Are we to start counting grains of sand?

Good evening Willie,

When we read something that is stated as "Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand" it is not meant to present and exact number, but to demonstrate a vast number.

It has the same meaning as the description of the great tribulation saints: "After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb." It is meant to convey a very large number.

However, the scripture in Rev.20:1-7 is not presented in the same way, but is meant to represent the specific number of a thousand years, which is repeated six times.

It is the same with the number of 144,000. It is a specific number that John hears and is broken down into 12,000 per each tribe. In addition, the number 144,000 remains consistent in Rev.14:1.

 

[Stephen63]

And yet, it is strange that word appears only in one chapter of the Bible! Rev.20. And yet, there it is!

I would say, that appearing multiple times in the same chapter really counts for one time. If you are going to make a doctrine as huge as "the Millennium" seems to be, don't you think, like all good doctrine, it should appear more than once in the entire Bible? I mean, it could have appeared many times throughout Revelation, and the OT and the NT, like the cross, for example, but instead, it is found just once.

No one questions the doctrine of the cross, because it is found in so many places, even prophesied in the OT. But millennium? Just not there! Except for Rev. 20, of course! I do acknowledge that, for sure!

For that reason, I do take it as figurative. Like a lot of Revelation, which simply cannot be interpreted literally. For that matter, Jesus spoke in parables, which are a type of metaphor. Are those to be taken literally? Just speaking metaphorically, here!

Actually, it's used 11 times, & every time it's used it means "thousand" literally.

Strong's Greek 5507
11 Occurrences

χίλια — 8 Occ.
χιλίας — 2 Occ.
χιλίων — 1 Occ.

2 Peter 3:8Adj-NNP
GRK:Κυρίῳ ὡς χίλια ἔτη καὶ
NAS: is like a thousand years,
KJV: the Lord as a thousand years, and
INT: Lord [is] as a thousand years and

2 Peter 3:8Adj-NNP
GRK:ἔτη καὶ χίλια ἔτη ὡς
NAS: years, and a thousand years
KJV: years, and a thousand years as
INT: years and a thousand years as

Revelation 11:3Adj-AFP
GRK: προφητεύσουσιν ἡμέρας χιλίας διακοσίας ἑξήκοντα
NAS: and they will prophesy for twelve hundred
KJV: they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred
INT: they will prophesy days a thousand two hundred [and] sixty
Revelation 12:6Adj-AFP
GRK: αὐτὴν ἡμέρας χιλίαςδιακοσίας ἑξήκοντα
NAS: she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred
KJV: there a thousand two hundred
INT: her days one thousand two hundred [and] sixty
Revelation 14:20Adj-GMP
GRK: ἀπὸ σταδίων χιλίωνἑξακοσίων
KJV: by the space of a thousand[and] six hundred
INT: to the distance of stadia a thousand six hundred


Revelation 20:2 Adj-ANP
GRK: ἔδησεν αὐτὸν χίλια ἔτη
NAS: and bound him for a thousand years;
KJV: bound him a thousand years,
INT: bound him a thousand years
Revelation 20:3 Adj-NNP
GRK: τελεσθῇ τὰ χίλια ἔτη μετὰ
NAS: until the thousand years
KJV: till the thousand years
INT: were completed the thousandyears after these
Revelation 20:4 Adj-ANP
GRK: τοῦ χριστοῦ χίλια ἔτη
NAS: with Christ for a thousandyears.
KJV: with Christ a thousand years.
INT: Christ a thousand years
Revelation 20:5 Adj-NNP
GRK: τελεσθῇ τὰ χίλια ἔτη αὕτη
NAS: until the thousand years
KJV: until the thousand years
INT: might have been completed the thousand years This [is]
Revelation 20:6 Adj-ANP
GRK: αὐτοῦ τὰ χίλια ἔτη
NAS: and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
KJV: with him a thousand years.
INT: him a thousand years
Revelation 20:7 Adj-NNP
GRK: τελεσθῇ τὰ χίλια ἔτη λυθήσεται
NAS: When the thousand years are completed,
KJV: when the thousand years
INT: might have been completed the thousand years will be released
11 Occurrences

 

[Stephen63]

What does an expression such as ten thousands of thousands mean? Is that to be calculated as meaning a precise number?

Or, "as many as the sands on a beach or in the desert?" Are we to start counting grains of sand?

Thousands is plural, an undetermined number, & not the same Greek word.

 

[Nehemiah6]

What does an expression such as ten thousands of thousands mean? Is that to be calculated as meaning a precise number?... Or, "as many as the sands on a beach or in the desert?" Are we to start counting grains of sand?

Willie,

Why should it be a problem for any discerning Christian to understand that there are times when God speaks about INDETERMINATE numbers (as above) and there are times when He speaks about exact or precise numbers (Q) It is all a matter of context. As for the Millennium, that is very precise and cannot be interpreted figuratively. To ensure that no one makes that mistake, God repeats *a thousand years* or *the thousand years* six times in Revelation 20. It is pure unbelief which refuses to see this as a specific period of time.

On the other hand, when God wants us to know that time is meaningless to Him, we are told that for God a thousand years are as one day and one day is as a thousand years. As far as God is concerned only about *six days* have elapsed since creation, and all of eternity is before Him and before His saints.