Not By Works
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When you listen to a person saying Jesus did not mean what the words obviously
apply to, you have guts.
God made His message simple and easy. Let love in and it will change you.
Oppose this and you will never know its truth, because only those who
experience it knows what it means. A hard heart is always hard.
So people choose their theology from where their hearts are, not from what
it means. This is why I know about love because Christ transformed me and
gave me life. What is being shared is about the failure of this love to change
some, but this speaks about the hardness of their hearts, not the failure of the
words or the cross.
apply to, you have guts.
God made His message simple and easy. Let love in and it will change you.
Oppose this and you will never know its truth, because only those who
experience it knows what it means. A hard heart is always hard.
So people choose their theology from where their hearts are, not from what
it means. This is why I know about love because Christ transformed me and
gave me life. What is being shared is about the failure of this love to change
some, but this speaks about the hardness of their hearts, not the failure of the
words or the cross.
The power of GOD is not measured by man...
If GOD says to us move the mountain.. do not consider how you will do it because by His Strength and power it is moved.. you are to believe Him... and He will do the rest if you obey...
1 Samuel 15
2And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.23For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
same GOD throughout.... same delight...
If GOD says to us move the mountain.. do not consider how you will do it because by His Strength and power it is moved.. you are to believe Him... and He will do the rest if you obey...
1 Samuel 15
2And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.23For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
same GOD throughout.... same delight...
I believe you have much to offer your brethren everywhere, and on these boards. You are Biblically astute, articulate, enough so you give pause for thought, and have a strong desire to follow the Lord. Myself and others disagree with you on several positions. I fully understand we each think we're right, and want to defend those positions. That should be an edifying and thought provoking interchange between us.
So which position is going garner the most credence? The one that either starts unloving, ugly comments, or responds to unloving ugly comments in a similar or even elevated way, OR THE POSITION THAT REFUSES TO ANSWER WRONG FOR WRONG AND UGLINESS FOR UGLINESS? But instead stays the course in both love and doctrine?
It is so easy for us to respond in love to those we agree with, or those who show us love. But isn't the true test of our Christianity how we treat those who we disagree with and may have hurt us?
This analogy you make may be at the root of your issues here:
"When your kids were little and they tried to touch a hot stove....you did not quote 1 Cor 13 to them and softly and gently pull them away from the stove.....you acted boldly and urgently to keep them safe from getting burned or worse....you probably also took disciplinary action to insure they never touched a hot stove again...nobody ever questioned your motive in applying the over-reactive things you did to protect your kid from burning themselves on a hot stove...."
YOU are not these people's father. YOU are not these people's Pastor. YOU are an individual behind a keyboard which the ONLY info about you we have is what you type and how you act.
You may be a Pastor or minister in Arkansas, and if that is true, then as I've said before, YOU bear the greater responsiblity to bring love, grace and peace to these boards.
And even when it was necessary to discipline my sons, the idea that I would call them liars and deceivers or worse would never enter my mind. AND a very short time would expire before I hugged them, explained to them in love why what I did was done. BUT TO REITERATE. YOU are not the father here!
Lastly, if someone is bearing a false witness about you, the truth will come out. Others will see it for what it is. I have seen you offer an apology. I for one am heartened by that. Further, no matter how many times you stumble and sin against me or others you will always be loved and forgiven by me. I would truly hope for the same from you, not just for me, but for all.
Peace, love and Grace to you brother, in Jesus Name.
So which position is going garner the most credence? The one that either starts unloving, ugly comments, or responds to unloving ugly comments in a similar or even elevated way, OR THE POSITION THAT REFUSES TO ANSWER WRONG FOR WRONG AND UGLINESS FOR UGLINESS? But instead stays the course in both love and doctrine?
It is so easy for us to respond in love to those we agree with, or those who show us love. But isn't the true test of our Christianity how we treat those who we disagree with and may have hurt us?
This analogy you make may be at the root of your issues here:
"When your kids were little and they tried to touch a hot stove....you did not quote 1 Cor 13 to them and softly and gently pull them away from the stove.....you acted boldly and urgently to keep them safe from getting burned or worse....you probably also took disciplinary action to insure they never touched a hot stove again...nobody ever questioned your motive in applying the over-reactive things you did to protect your kid from burning themselves on a hot stove...."
YOU are not these people's father. YOU are not these people's Pastor. YOU are an individual behind a keyboard which the ONLY info about you we have is what you type and how you act.
You may be a Pastor or minister in Arkansas, and if that is true, then as I've said before, YOU bear the greater responsiblity to bring love, grace and peace to these boards.
And even when it was necessary to discipline my sons, the idea that I would call them liars and deceivers or worse would never enter my mind. AND a very short time would expire before I hugged them, explained to them in love why what I did was done. BUT TO REITERATE. YOU are not the father here!
Lastly, if someone is bearing a false witness about you, the truth will come out. Others will see it for what it is. I have seen you offer an apology. I for one am heartened by that. Further, no matter how many times you stumble and sin against me or others you will always be loved and forgiven by me. I would truly hope for the same from you, not just for me, but for all.
Peace, love and Grace to you brother, in Jesus Name.
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Romans 6
15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
what form of doctrine did they obey from the heart?
Now being made free from sin and becoming servants of GOD... fruit unto holiness... and the end being Everlasting life.
The gift of GOD is eternal life through Our Lord.
What say you then? They had works but no Faith?
Or did they obey from the heart and yield themselves as servants of Christ by hearing and obeying His Testimony.
Obedience unto righteousness indeed.
Being under Grace is not about giving lip service...
15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
what form of doctrine did they obey from the heart?
Now being made free from sin and becoming servants of GOD... fruit unto holiness... and the end being Everlasting life.
The gift of GOD is eternal life through Our Lord.
What say you then? They had works but no Faith?
Or did they obey from the heart and yield themselves as servants of Christ by hearing and obeying His Testimony.
Obedience unto righteousness indeed.
Being under Grace is not about giving lip service...
Certain people ignore "servants of obedience unto righteousness" (Romans 6:16) and simply stress "obedience unto righteousness" as if works of obedience that follow faith are unto righteousness, as if we are saved by works. Unbelievers are not slaves of obedience unto righteousness no matter how much so called obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation based on their works.
There is a contrast here between servants. There are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants of sin unto death, or servants of obedience unto righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation, we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness."
Before they obeyed that form of doctrine by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16), they had been slaves to sin. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"
1 Peter 1:22 notice - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by FAITH." "Obeying the gospel" and "obeying that form of doctrine" in these passages is really a synonym for BELIEVING the gospel. Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."
Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..
Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.
There is a contrast here between servants. There are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants of sin unto death, or servants of obedience unto righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation, we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness."
Before they obeyed that form of doctrine by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16), they had been slaves to sin. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"
1 Peter 1:22 notice - "Purified your souls in obeying the truth" and notice in Acts 15:9 - "Purified their hearts by FAITH." "Obeying the gospel" and "obeying that form of doctrine" in these passages is really a synonym for BELIEVING the gospel. Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."
Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..
Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith (not works) is accounted for righteousness.
The power of the cross is GOD whom we are to love and obey through His Son's Testimony... we are to believe unto the saving of our soul... knowing He is Faithful who promised...
Many rejected the work off the cross.. believing it be foolish... but for we that believe we are to make Our Foundation on the Messiah's Testament.
That is how the Just live by Faith.
Romans 4
Romans 4King James Version (KJV)
4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
This is teaching the New Covenant in place of the Old and trying to give understanding to the circumcision that the promise to Abraham would come to all of us and not just those of circumcision... It tries to explain that Abraham received the promise while he was uncircumcised and circumcision was a seal of the Righteousness of Faith... works here are in regard to the Old Testament.
The New Covenant is by Grace through Faith in the Messiah.
Romans 4King James Version (KJV)
4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
This is teaching the New Covenant in place of the Old and trying to give understanding to the circumcision that the promise to Abraham would come to all of us and not just those of circumcision... It tries to explain that Abraham received the promise while he was uncircumcised and circumcision was a seal of the Righteousness of Faith... works here are in regard to the Old Testament.
The New Covenant is by Grace through Faith in the Messiah.
Yes, no straw man needed, which is why I pointed out your error here, which none in this thread believe or teach:
IOW #fail on your part, nothing but a straw man. Anyhow, keep squirreling, perhaps you'll stumble upon an acorn again.
IOW #fail on your part, nothing but a straw man. Anyhow, keep squirreling, perhaps you'll stumble upon an acorn again.
I'm sure you mean well to some but I perceive to me you only wish to mock and exalt yourself to strengthen friendships with certain members which is fine... but we each share according to our beliefs and if something written brings about certain posts then so be it... I will keep sharing and know you will keep doing what you do according to your beliefs.. but you really have offered nothing to the contrary of what I shared... and really can not speak on behalf of everyone else.. one man's error is another man's truth....
GOD is the ultimate Truth always and forever.
Here is something I shared a few days back elsewhere:
John 7
9Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? 20The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee? 21Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel. 22Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man. 23If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day? 24Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
Can anyone perceive what is seperated here?
John 7
9Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me? 20The people answered and said, Thou hast a devil: who goeth about to kill thee? 21Jesus answered and said unto them, I have done one work, and ye all marvel. 22Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man. 23If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day? 24Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
Can anyone perceive what is seperated here?
It is the power of GOD.
1 Corinthians 1
18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
Proverbs 7
[TABLE="class: passage-cols"]
[TR]
[TD="class: passage-col col-xs-12 first last"][h=1]Proverbs 7King James Version (KJV)[/h]7 My son, keep my words, and lay up my commandments with thee.
2 Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.
3 Bind them upon thy fingers, write them upon the table of thine heart.
4 Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister; and call understanding thy kinswoman:
5 That they may keep thee from the strange woman, from the stranger which flattereth with her words.
6 For at the window of my house I looked through my casement,
7 And beheld among the simple ones, I discerned among the youths, a young man void of understanding,
8 Passing through the street near her corner; and he went the way to her house,
9 In the twilight, in the evening, in the black and dark night:
10 And, behold, there met him a woman with the attire of an harlot, and subtil of heart.
11 (She is loud and stubborn; her feet abide not in her house:
12 Now is she without, now in the streets, and lieth in wait at every corner.)
13 So she caught him, and kissed him, and with an impudent face said unto him,
14 I have peace offerings with me; this day have I payed my vows.
15 Therefore came I forth to meet thee, diligently to seek thy face, and I have found thee.
16 I have decked my bed with coverings of tapestry, with carved works, with fine linen of Egypt.
17 I have perfumed my bed with myrrh, aloes, and cinnamon.
18 Come, let us take our fill of love until the morning: let us solace ourselves with loves.
19 For the goodman is not at home, he is gone a long journey:
20 He hath taken a bag of money with him, and will come home at the day appointed.
21 With her much fair speech she caused him to yield, with the flattering of her lips she forced him.
22 He goeth after her straightway, as an ox goeth to the slaughter, or as a fool to the correction of the stocks;
23 Till a dart strike through his liver; as a bird hasteth to the snare, and knoweth not that it is for his life.
24 Hearken unto me now therefore, O ye children, and attend to the words of my mouth.
25 Let not thine heart decline to her ways, go not astray in her paths.
26 For she hath cast down many wounded: yea, many strong men have been slain by her.
27 Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[TABLE="class: passage-cols"]
[TR]
[TD="class: passage-col col-xs-12 first last"][h=1]Proverbs 7King James Version (KJV)[/h]7 My son, keep my words, and lay up my commandments with thee.
2 Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.
3 Bind them upon thy fingers, write them upon the table of thine heart.
4 Say unto wisdom, Thou art my sister; and call understanding thy kinswoman:
5 That they may keep thee from the strange woman, from the stranger which flattereth with her words.
6 For at the window of my house I looked through my casement,
7 And beheld among the simple ones, I discerned among the youths, a young man void of understanding,
8 Passing through the street near her corner; and he went the way to her house,
9 In the twilight, in the evening, in the black and dark night:
10 And, behold, there met him a woman with the attire of an harlot, and subtil of heart.
11 (She is loud and stubborn; her feet abide not in her house:
12 Now is she without, now in the streets, and lieth in wait at every corner.)
13 So she caught him, and kissed him, and with an impudent face said unto him,
14 I have peace offerings with me; this day have I payed my vows.
15 Therefore came I forth to meet thee, diligently to seek thy face, and I have found thee.
16 I have decked my bed with coverings of tapestry, with carved works, with fine linen of Egypt.
17 I have perfumed my bed with myrrh, aloes, and cinnamon.
18 Come, let us take our fill of love until the morning: let us solace ourselves with loves.
19 For the goodman is not at home, he is gone a long journey:
20 He hath taken a bag of money with him, and will come home at the day appointed.
21 With her much fair speech she caused him to yield, with the flattering of her lips she forced him.
22 He goeth after her straightway, as an ox goeth to the slaughter, or as a fool to the correction of the stocks;
23 Till a dart strike through his liver; as a bird hasteth to the snare, and knoweth not that it is for his life.
24 Hearken unto me now therefore, O ye children, and attend to the words of my mouth.
25 Let not thine heart decline to her ways, go not astray in her paths.
26 For she hath cast down many wounded: yea, many strong men have been slain by her.
27 Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Matt,
I am aware of the few Scriptures that appear to teach works plus faith. However the majority of Scripture teaches faith alone. As I worked toward harmonizing all of the Scriptures I realized I couldn't see all Scripture through the minority position of faith plus works. So, I started praying how to see through faith alone. If you are open I will discuss the Scriptures you brought up in light of the majority position of Scripture which is faith alone saves.
I am aware of the few Scriptures that appear to teach works plus faith. However the majority of Scripture teaches faith alone. As I worked toward harmonizing all of the Scriptures I realized I couldn't see all Scripture through the minority position of faith plus works. So, I started praying how to see through faith alone. If you are open I will discuss the Scriptures you brought up in light of the majority position of Scripture which is faith alone saves.
